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Old 18th November 2014, 09:40   #196
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Originally Posted by Lalvaz View Post
I am confident that I will not get justice in my lifetime and hence I will cut my losses, sell my car, and move onto a hopefully safer car. But wait, which is a safer car? I don't really know since crash ratings are not yet mandatory in India. So I hope and pray that things change and crash testing becomes mandatory.
For the record, crash testing is indeed mandatory in India as per homologation requirements for every car that is sold here. Our crash testing requirement has been developed based on European standards and as it has been discussed on this very same thread earlier, the cars being sold here do pass the minimum requirements set by the authorities. It is just that they are not as safe compared to the other cars which were tested by NCAP.
The entire discussion bolis down to this, the Indian spec swift offers good enough protection upto around 40kmph(appx at which mandatory testing is done) while it performs poorly when tested at 64 kmph(NCAP testing speed). Either way we can't really comment on the fate of the occupants in case of a high speed collision(>100kmph).
Did anyone ever wonder why even NCAP insists on testing at a puny 64 kmph when these cars are easily able to cruise above 120 kmph? Food for thought.
(P.S: I am an automobile engineer trained at ARAI and this was the first question I asked in my first passive safety class of M.tech)
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Old 18th November 2014, 09:47   #197
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I'm sure someone might have replied earlier to this, but i found such reasoning quite funny. Well as on today on most cars ABS + Airbag combo is optional and costs atleast 50K extra. Someone pays that extra cash and sits without the seat belt and drives fast enough to crash and get killed by the Airbag!

So how do you deal with this problem? It's like saying, the kid does not study well so don't give him the books! Don't complicate it by such arguments please. Safety kits are a must to improve safety and let the manufacturers do their part. If airbags have killed people in some cases, seat belts too have broken ribs in some other cases. Those are exceptions among millions of lives saved by these safety features. Equally important is safety awareness and safe practices among drivers. Let the drivers do their part. In both cases, Govt. has a major role. But mixing both means you have one hell of a mess, good enough for just arguments that reach nowhere.
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Old 18th November 2014, 10:18   #198
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Default Re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's ridiculous statements

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Originally Posted by DReddy View Post
Did anyone ever wonder why even NCAP insists on testing at a puny 64 kmph when these cars are easily able to cruise above 120 kmph? Food for thought.
(P.S: I am an automobile engineer trained at ARAI and this was the first question I asked in my first passive safety class of M.tech)
I read somewhere that because with the current level of technology, it is not possible to make regular cars which can protect its occupants at 120kmph anyway. Now, this can give rise to some argument, but if technology is available for protection at 64kmph and regular cars like VW Polo, Punto, etc have come out with flying colours, then why can't a Maruti? Esp. a Swift which is offered at a similar price point to these cars? I will not be believing that Maruti is selling its A segment cars like Alto at front-up losses and covering them by selling the likes of Swift ; something like cross subsidization.

Last edited by saket77 : 18th November 2014 at 10:20.
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Old 18th November 2014, 10:24   #199
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Default Re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's ridiculous statements

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Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
In what may be a somewhat terrifying development that tries to detract attention from the urgent need for safety features in all cars sold in this country, Maruti Suzuki Chairman Mr. R. C. Bhargava has come out with a statement that implies that the need for active and passive safety features in motor vehicles sold in India is probably redundant in the present scenario.

http://indianexpress.com/article/bus...-maruti-chief/



Not only does Mr. Bhargava think "safety last", but there appear to be at least some strong supporters of his school of thought. One reader called PlugIn Caroo, who responded to the news article, shares a link to his own blog that rants about the *conspiracy theory* of European car manufacturers trying to unfairly eliminate competition from Indian and other Asian car manufacturers through the use of EuroNCAP and Global NCAP. Read the blog below: http://plugincaroo.wordpress.com/201...ting/#more-107
Interesting topic. So many responses, wow. I guess people are taking Mr. Bhargava completely wrong & making him a villain. He is not saying that safety features should not be there but he is stressing more focus on other parameters as well. I guess what he is trying to say here is conditions here in India are totally different than in EU, which i guess everyone will agree. His point is if cars becomes costly, entry level people will rethink of buying it. They will prefer their existing 2 wheelers only. I am of opinion that Safety features should be there in the every single car, so don't want to start fresh debate here. I am planning my next car will have all safety features.

The other guy may sound stupid but he has made some very valid points as well. I am not sure if we have any safety tests done for 2 wheelers, 3 wheelers, buses, trucks, etc. If not, why??? I guess it is also important. I don't see any seat belts even in Volvo buses in which we travel very frequently like Pune-Mumbai, Pune-Banglore etc. In case bus topples, we are at very high risk here. I remember sometime back Volvo buses catching fires due to scratching diesel tank with divider or something else. More than 30-40 people died in such 2-3 incidents which is just horrible. People couldn't escape through bus & died due to burning & suffocation only & not by physical injuries. Was there any safety tests done here? If not, why?? Sleeper coach which is becoming very popular now a days is also a highly risky affair.

IMHO, Government should take care of all the possible causes of the road accidents. They should not restrict it to only making airbags & ABS compulsory in cars. Every small thing which can save somebody's life, should be taken care. Lets hope for better, safe roads for us in coming days.

Last edited by aniketi : 18th November 2014 at 10:26.
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Old 18th November 2014, 10:26   #200
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Default Re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's ridiculous statements

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Originally Posted by DReddy View Post
The entire discussion bolis down to this, the Indian spec swift offers good enough protection upto around 40kmph(appx at which mandatory testing is done) while it performs poorly when tested at 64 kmph(NCAP testing speed). Either way we can't really comment on the fate of the occupants in case of a high speed collision(>100kmph).
You are being too kind on the Swift, it is not India spec, it is compromised. That said, a car which fares better at 64 kmph will also fair better when it comes to crashing at a higher speed. Hypothetically, 3 start rated Swift at 64 kmph may score 1 or 2 stars at 80 kmph, while a Polo which is rated 4 stars at 64 kmph may still be able to earn 2-3 stars. At higher speeds it will be a question of life and death.

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Originally Posted by DReddy View Post
Did anyone ever wonder why even NCAP insists on testing at a puny 64 kmph when these cars are easily able to cruise above 120 kmph? Food for thought.
(P.S: I am an automobile engineer trained at ARAI and this was the first question I asked in my first passive safety class of M.tech)
I do not think any car in the market can be called safe if you are going to crash it at 120 kmph! From the NCAP website
"Contact between the occupant and intruding parts of the passenger compartment is the main cause of serious and fatal injuries, for restrained adult car occupants. The test speed of 64 km/h represents a car to car collision with each car travelling at around 55 km/h. The difference in speed is due to the energy absorbed by the deformable face. Accident research has shown that this impact speed covers a significant proportion of serious and fatal accidents. By preventing intrusion, the chances of the occupant impacting the carís interior is minimised with space remaining for the restraint system to operate effectively."
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Old 18th November 2014, 10:38   #201
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Default Re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's ridiculous statements

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Originally Posted by DReddy View Post
Did anyone ever wonder why even NCAP insists on testing at a puny 64 kmph when these cars are easily able to cruise above 120 kmph? Food for thought.
(P.S: I am an automobile engineer trained at ARAI and this was the first question I asked in my first passive safety class of M.tech)
The numbers (64 kmph, 56 kmph) are certainly intriguing. Why not 60 kmph, for example? Why not 90 kmph? Please enlighten us - you definitely know the answers , and we (at least I, personally) look forward to learning the explanations.
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Old 18th November 2014, 10:39   #202
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Originally Posted by aniketi View Post
His point is if cars becomes costly, entry level people will rethink of buying it. They will prefer their existing 2 wheelers only.

We get that part and there is some sense in it, true. But that argument holds good only for an entry level car as mentioned repeatedly in this thread. What about other cars priced higher and much above the scope of a 2 wheeler upgrading guy is the question.
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Old 18th November 2014, 11:04   #203
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Default Re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's ridiculous statements

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Originally Posted by ajaypjayaraj View Post
We get that part and there is some sense in it, true. But that argument holds good only for an entry level car as mentioned repeatedly in this thread. What about other cars priced higher and much above the scope of a 2 wheeler upgrading guy is the question.
Yes, it can be case with ALTO 800 or ALTO K10, but definitely not the case with say Swift, Swift Dzire, Ciaz.
Basically the onus lies with the government which should make Airbags and ABS mandatory, this would prevent manufacturers like Maruti who always undercut the price of the competition by not offering Airbags and ABS.
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Old 18th November 2014, 11:08   #204
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Default Re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's ridiculous statements

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Originally Posted by aniketi View Post
Interesting topic. So many responses, wow. I guess people are taking Mr. Bhargava completely wrong & making him a villain. He is not saying that safety features should not be there but he is stressing more focus on other parameters as well.
On taking him copmpletely wrong - No, you are being too kind on him. Imagine this - the highest seller 'premium' hatchback in India fares poorly to the same model sold elsewhere? My thoughts then go - if Swift is built like this, what about the other cars in the stable?

His argument about the cost is comepletely baseless, absolute rubbish. Most experts tell you it hardly costs 20k (at current prices). However to make the structure more stable - he will perhaps need to invest in R&D which which fat profit expectations won't allow.

This is the precise reason - why I would never buy a Maruti. If the man charing the helm of a company is like this, God knows what transpires among others.

Last edited by pratyush6 : 18th November 2014 at 11:20.
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Old 18th November 2014, 11:16   #205
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Default Re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's ridiculous statements

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Originally Posted by pratyush6 View Post
However to make the structure more stable - he will perhaps need to invest in R&D which which fat profit expectations won't allow.
In fact, there is no R&D going to be involved. All he has to do is to use the same metals and design of the existing Euro Spec Swift. This has only to do with cost of production. Nothing new to explore with R&D. It is no rocket science that Suzuki does not knows about already; it is only about putting it in place.

Last edited by saket77 : 18th November 2014 at 11:18.
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Old 18th November 2014, 11:18   #206
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Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
The numbers (64 kmph, 56 kmph) are certainly intriguing. Why not 60 kmph, for example? Why not 90 kmph? Please enlighten us - you definitely know the answers , and we (at least I, personally) look forward to learning the explanations.
I would only be reiterating what a fellow bhpian has already put up in a previous post, but our crash test norms have been derived from European norms which have in turn been decided based on decades of crash test research. 90% of automotive accidents fall within this speed and has since been mandated by UNECE and adopted in our homologation norms.
I cannot comment on why NCAP has specifically decided on another number. If they do have the research to back it up, then they probably should propose to update the European regulation too which is mandated at 56 kmph.
Once again I am not supporting one manufacturer or the other, but being a part of the industry I can only say this, if there is a demand manufacturers would supply. If each and every Bhpian is committed to improving road safety in our country, we should start doing something about it by spreading awareness.
It is our duty to not only let people know about which car is safer but also about proper usage of its safety features. Not wearing seat belts thinking that air bags would protect in case of a crash is the classic case of how dangerous half baked knowledge could be. Although technology is definitely necessary, i feel that awareness is a much bigger need of the hour in the country.
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Old 18th November 2014, 11:19   #207
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Default Re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's ridiculous statements

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Originally Posted by saket77 View Post
In fact, there is no R&D going to be involved. All he has to do is to use the same metals and design of the existing Euro Spec Swift. This has only to do with cost of production. Nothing new to explore with R&D. It is no rocket science that Suzuki does not knows about; it is only about putting it in place.
Yes, actually well said.

My R&D refers to the fact that to achieve the Milege XX.XX (the highest in the country) and being safe.
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Old 18th November 2014, 11:35   #208
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Default Re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's ridiculous statements

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Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
The numbers (64 kmph, 56 kmph) are certainly intriguing. Why not 60 kmph, for example? Why not 90 kmph? Please enlighten us - you definitely know the answers , and we (at least I, personally) look forward to learning the explanations.
I venture an educated guess. I think the speeds are being measure in miles. 64 km = 40 miles and 56 km = 35 miles. This may account for the funny (i.e. non-round) numbers. As to why no crash tests at 120 kmph, the thing is even though one is traveling at 120 kmph, one (mostly) applies brake just before crash and hence the car is slowed down considerably before crash.

As far as Mr. R.C. Bhargava's comments go, I am a bit late to the party. But, I will take this opportunity to voice my comments. His talks reminds me of some policemen and politicians after every sexual assaults. They will blame salwar designers, mobiles, internet and work hours for sexual assaults. Anything but law and order. It seems to me that the day is not too far away when car manufacturers are out to blame uneducated buffaloes, indisciplined trees and inconsiderate mountains for lack of safety. Anything but car design.
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Old 18th November 2014, 12:30   #209
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Default Re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's ridiculous statements

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Originally Posted by DReddy View Post
For the record, crash testing is indeed mandatory in India as per homologation requirements for every car that is sold here. Our crash testing requirement has been developed based on European standards and as it has been discussed on this very same thread earlier, the cars being sold here do pass the minimum requirements set by the authorities. It is just that they are not as safe compared to the other cars which were tested by NCAP.
The entire discussion bolis down to this, the Indian spec swift offers good enough protection upto around 40kmph(appx at which mandatory testing is done) while it performs poorly when tested at 64 kmph(NCAP testing speed).
Thank you for the clarification DReddy, perhaps I missed seeing the earlier post about the Indian swift meeting the crash testing requirements. Now, tell me one thing, where can I see the crash testing reports for the Indian Swift and the other indian cars. Even for the crash at 40kmph, where can I see the report?

FYI - I tried getting the crash testing reports for the following cars from the respective dealers and I got no answer. Perhaps you being from ARAI can assist. Maruti Swift, Maruti Ciaz, Tata Zest, Hyundai Verna, Honda City, Fiat Linea, Volkswagon Vento.

I want to know if the passenger cabin structure is structurally safe in the event of a frontal crash (40kmph or 54kmph or 64kmph), or does it deform.

I also would like to know why these manufacturers do not publish such crash test reports on their website, especially since you say it is mandatory to conduct it in India. BTW, I also read a report in the newspaper that India does not even have an independent crash testing lab right now. However, ARAI seems to have one, as per its website. So much confusion, its making me dizzy. Please throw some light on this DReddy.
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Old 18th November 2014, 13:27   #210
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Default Re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's ridiculous statements

@DrReddy, I too would like to know where and if ARAI publishes results of these crash tests, tests specifications, crash facility location etc. The best I could find on ARAI site is some Bumper crash test on https://www.araiindia.com/facilities_safety.asp

Are the crash tests done on all passenger cars? I am pleasantly surprised to know ARAI conducts crash tests at 40kh/hr. Thanks.
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