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Old 20th November 2014, 09:03   #226
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Originally Posted by civic-sense View Post
That it passes some lousy third world test, or whether the car is indeed safe?
You think just because its 64kmph instead of 40 the car is invincible?

This magical line that's considered safe! 64kmph.

Safety is relative. Cars can never be zero risk!
Stop falling for the safety trap.

They are developing standards for our roads,
I'd rather have better visibility than a high dashboard line.

Let's see what they come up with, and then comment.
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Old 20th November 2014, 09:12   #227
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Default Re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's ridiculous statements

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Originally Posted by Diesel_convert View Post
You think just because its 64kmph instead of 40 the car is invincible?

This magical line that's considered safe! 64kmph.

Safety is relative. Cars can never be zero risk!
Stop falling for the safety trap.

They are developing standards for our roads,
I'd rather have better visibility than a high dashboard line.

Let's see what they come up with, and then comment.
We are going back to the same kind of arguments that were dismissed earlier. That they are safer than bikes etc. Safety is indeed relative. But you have to first fix the class and then compare. You can't say, my 8L car is safer than your 50K bike. But my 7L Polo/Figo is indeed safer than a 7L Swift.
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Old 20th November 2014, 09:34   #228
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Default Re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's ridiculous statements

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Originally Posted by civic-sense View Post
We are going back to the same kind of arguments that were dismissed earlier. That they are safer than bikes etc. Safety is indeed relative. But you have to first fix the class and then compare. You can't say, my 8L car is safer than your 50K bike. But my 7L Polo/Figo is indeed safer than a 7L Swift.
No, they are saying that the cars are as safe as the regulations need it to be. If they modify the regulations, the cars can be modified to pass those tests as well.

Different horses for different courses.
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Old 20th November 2014, 10:09   #229
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Default Re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's ridiculous statements

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No, they are saying that the cars are as safe as the regulations need it to be. If they modify the regulations, the cars can be modified to pass those tests as well.

Different horses for different courses.
I graduated with 40% marks but couldn't get a job for 2 years.

That the Datsun Go managed to pass the regulation test, says a lot about the quality of the regulations, right?
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Old 20th November 2014, 10:15   #230
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Default Re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's ridiculous statements

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Originally Posted by civic-sense View Post
That the Datsun Go managed to pass the regulation test, says a lot about the quality of the regulations, right?
Which is exactly why I was telling to blame the game not the player. With regards to Datsun selling well or getting a job in your terms, it is upto the manufacturer to make it attractive to sell the car.

Everyone wants a piece of the pie i.e. the Indian market. The way they go about is different. As long as it is not illegal I don't really have a problem.
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Old 20th November 2014, 10:16   #231
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Originally Posted by SchumiFan View Post
No, they are saying that the cars are as safe as the regulations need it to be. If they modify the regulations, the cars can be modified to pass those tests as well.

Different horses for different courses l said.

Well said, spot on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by civic-sense View Post
We are going back to the same kind of arguments that were dismissed earlier. But my 7L Polo/Figo is indeed safer than a 7L Swift.
I would kind of agree with you there...


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Originally Posted by civic-sense View Post

Means we can all be contented that our cars "pass" the stringent India test. But is that what we want/need? That it passes some lousy third world test, or whether the car is indeed safe?
Once again I request all concerned Bhpians to take time and go through the AIS standards from the links I posted earlier. These 'lousy' third world tests are inline with 'stringent - phoren' standards such as the UNECE. Also, I request you to read up on what the NCAP is, world over it follows a different testing standard than those imposed by regulating authorities.

If there one thing I have learnt in my journey from being an automobile enthusiast to an automobile engineer, it is to never assume anything without data to back you up. Please give some credit to Indian engineers who slog it out to make our cars fuel efficient, fun to drive as well as safe.

Did you know that our engineers one of the best in the world when it comes to performing advanced CAE(computer aided engineering) simulations such as FEA(finite element analysis), CFD(Computational fluid dynamics), MBD(multi body dynamics), normal modes/frequency response, crash simulations on each and every component(even the sunglass holder in your car) and also at system and vehicle level. This is followed up with physical testing at component, system and vehicle level which is consistently showing up to 90% correlation in some cases.

We have become so cost effective for global automotive giants that every car manufacturer is now setting up an R&D office in India to leverage these skills of Indian engineers not only on indian cars but also on international products. I always felt that the end user should never be bored with such stuff but simply get to enjoy the benefits.

The road loads of each and every region are different, which makes these simulations and tests all the more important in the development of any vehicle. There is a reason why Maruti is able to beat the top automobile manufacturers of the world in our country, it is because no one knows India the way they do. Now you know that there is a lot more to that line than just pricing, financing and accesorizing strategies.

Last edited by DReddy : 20th November 2014 at 10:20.
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Old 20th November 2014, 10:34   #232
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Default Re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's ridiculous statements

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Originally Posted by DReddy View Post
The road loads of each and every region are different, which makes these simulations and tests all the more important in the development of any vehicle. There is a reason why Maruti is able to beat the top automobile manufacturers of the world in our country, it is because no one knows India the way they do. Now you know that there is a lot more to that line than just pricing, financing and accesorizing strategies.
Totally agree with you on all the points you've made. However, the perception remains that Maruti scores lower on the build quality of cars that they sell in India versus in Europe. To allay that perception, Maruti and the other automobile manufacturers should lobby the government to make publishing the crash ratings for each and every indian car. Crash test results being put into the public domain can only help in providing the much needed confidence that their Indian spec cars are indeed world class, right now that feeling is simply not there, and the comments by the Maruti top brass in this regard have only made matters worse.
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Old 20th November 2014, 10:59   #233
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Default Re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's ridiculous statements

Reading through this thread is both entertaining and enlightening.

Entertaining because it is.
Enlightening because of the variety of views on a supposedly non-negotiable topic such as safety, from folks who are educated, urban and very aware.

There is no absolute standard for safety in cars -
- purely because of the number of variables at play &
- because nothing can protect anyone from momentum (momentum = mass x velocity) that a swiftly driven car generates.


I would make 3 points on this topic:

1.
I can understand if the export version of a car is fitted with extra airbags, bigger bumpers, ESP etc. compared to Indian versions.
However, I find it appalling that the Indian version should be structurally inferior to the export model.
Especially when a buyer has no way to know about such 'derating'. eg. I can compare the specs of UK market Jazz/Polo/Swift with Indian market models and know about missing airbags, etc. But I'd expect the same structural integrity.

2.
I believe regulations should specify 'other party' safety standards. eg. pedestrian safety, proximity based auto-braking, etc.
Occupant safety should be left for the market/consumer to demand from the manufacturer.
Let the consumer choose how much occupant safety features they need - they will choose based on their priorities, options, cost etc etc.
But 'other party' safety should be mandated and enforced.

3.
Indian consumer is intelligent enough to make rational choices and he/she is prioritizing safety lower than mileage-resale-cost. This is a fact and lets accept it.
No one will accept it if said in this manner, but the sales nos. of lower variants speak for themselves.
It is wrong for me to judge people who make such choices as fools. It is their own hard earned money and hence their choice on occupant safety.

Regards
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Old 20th November 2014, 12:28   #234
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Default Re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's ridiculous statements

Maruthi's chairman's comment is really "enlightening" but unfortunately it's not a lone voice but the collective sentiments of the auto makers in India.

"When was the last time you saw a car advertisement where safety features were emphasized over or even at par with style and design aesthetics ?"

Being a 3rd world country, people are more conscious of the value for money spend on automobiles than on the safety features delivered, little realizing that the pennies saved usually results in lives lost.

Air bags and ABS in most accidents would indeed be the difference between life and death. Sadly, car makers some how consider those as "Luxury features" than essential or vital ones, and this is visible in each of their marketing messages.

Even an out of court settlement of the toyoto fortuner accident stinks like hell and the court should never ever have allowed a fine as paltry as 25 lakhs. The safety features in cars in US were the result of multi-million dollar fines imposed by the courts on auto manufacturers there but sadly our highest court asked for a "settlement".

I think under the circumstance, a bullock cart with ABS would be the next product from Maruthi stable. At least chairman can claim that the vehicle is safe from head on collision...

Last edited by Turbo car : 20th November 2014 at 12:46.
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Old 21st November 2014, 01:57   #235
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Default Re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's ridiculous statements

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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
This forum is 98% void of facts. That is a considered opinion and not a fact of course.

Personally I have never understood why anybody on a public, largely anonymous forum, (just about everybody here uses an alias) could feel offended in the first place. If you don't even want to be known by your own name, how can you take offense to something some anonomous joker says, it is just somebody giving his/her opinion in a enthusiastic way?

Jeroen
Dear friend,
The reason I commented was that I was reprimanded a few days back and my post deleted when I called some members of the forum "rich boys". Calling members and people who are disgusted with NCAP's scaremongering, as fools , is incorrect by the same yardstick.
As far as Bhargava's comments are concerned, time will prove what is right or wrong. Calling people names won't change the inevitable - Regulations will be tailor made as per SIAM & NCAP will be adopted under a different alias but with a toothless form.Cheers to that!!!!!!!
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Old 21st November 2014, 07:20   #236
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Slightly OT but here's a video of a small overlap impact test on some minivans sold in US



The slight overlap test is a new test apparently. Some cars are designed to be safe and some are just designed to pass specific tests and fail badly when new tests are introduced.
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Old 21st November 2014, 22:21   #237
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Default Re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's ridiculous statements

My views reflect the average middle-class car buyer. By making ABS and Airbag standard on all cars the purchase decision for the first time buyer would definately become much more difficult. An Alto or Eon dearer by 30-40k would mean an hike of 10-15% on total value!
Rather than making this mandatory, I think making an yearly fitness test mandatory on all passenger cars would make our roads much safer.

Another option is instead of fleecing the poor car buyers, the government has to
Another point, few years back my friends 2005 swift zxi had a small crash on the front right corner and unfortunately the airbag opened up. Since the same cost 40k to replace and only 50% was covered by insurance he opt to put in VXI steering wheel? I somehow dont think he is the only one who has opted for this.

There are a lot amongst us who would give safety a pass most of the time even while choosing a car and also while using one. Lets honestly say how many amongst us would change a tire when it is worn upto the TWI mark. I bet most would wait till it is worn bald.

Safety shold not only be restricted to features of gizmos but also be made a habit in the way be maintain our cars and how responsibily we drive.

And to the government, we are willing to pay for all Euro spec safety and emission norms but when are you giving us Euro Spec Roads.
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Old 22nd November 2014, 10:36   #238
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Default Re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's ridiculous statements

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Originally Posted by sureshkishore View Post
My views reflect the average middle-class car buyer. By making ABS and Airbag standard on all cars the purchase decision for the first time buyer would definately become much more difficult. An Alto or Eon dearer by 30-40k would mean an hike of 10-15% on total value!
Rather than making this mandatory, I think making an yearly fitness test mandatory on all passenger cars would make our roads much safer.

Another option is instead of fleecing the poor car buyers, the government has to
Another point, few years back my friends 2005 swift zxi had a small crash on the front right corner and unfortunately the airbag opened up. Since the same cost 40k to replace and only 50% was covered by insurance he opt to put in VXI steering wheel? I somehow dont think he is the only one who has opted for this.

..........
Agree with you in toto.

Should we not think of first time buyers?

But should we give them death traps in the name of cost cutting?

However, to ask for all safety bells and whistles in basic models of Nanos and Altos sounds elitist.

We can not dismiss Bhargawa's arguments completely.

Nice comments by you.
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Old 22nd November 2014, 11:46   #239
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Default Re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's ridiculous statements

Mr. R C Bhargava unfortunately is too old school to have an army of PR groupies filtering his every statement in such a way that it becomes vague to the point of being worthless.

To me all that he has said distills into one question : Will installing airbags and ABS solve the problem of road fatalities in India at the cost of driving the entry level models even further out of reach of a large % of the population?

A few questions :

1. Why is the NCAP suddenly interested in India? We have not sprung out of the woodwork one fine day? Cars have been sold here for over a century now. Max Mosely suddenly turned Christopher Columbus??

2. The safety standards in cars have being going up every year. ABS and Airbags are now available in a wider range of cars than a year before.

3. About AMT. There is no point of introducing DSG if your customers don't want to pay for it and benefits of such a sophisticated system is lost on an ordinary customer. The AMT itself is improving with every iteration. The AMT in the Alto K10 is smoother than the Celerio AMT.

4. A more practical suggestion might be making projector headlights mandatory in all Indian cars as visibility is a major problem on our poorly lit highways.

If so interested in safety the govt. should reduce the excise duty on cars that have airbags and abs so that the cost is absorbed. Of course the Indian govt. has always been least bothered about it's citizen's safety.

Are the customers interested?
In Kerala, which prides itself as being the most literate state in India, asking people to wear a helmet is treated as meddling with their fundamental right. Lets not even go into the scenario of bikes without their rear view mirror for the "look". How are such bikers going to develop a habit of using rear view mirrors while driving cars?

In short what Mr. Bhargava is trying to say, in my opinion, is this. We need to look at the whole problem of behaviors, adoption, prevention of accidents etc to tackle the problem rather than get ourselves in a huff just because the NCAP suddenly woke up and realized that people drive cars in India and airbags, ABS etc are the silver bullets for this menace. And global companies like VW are not above influencing the NCAP to squeeze a competitor.

And as the former head of the company that put India on wheels, gave us some fantastic cars and has proved with 50% market share than no one else knows the Indian consumer better, I think I am okay with him preaching a bit even if it might be a bit insenstive. PR professionals cost a lot these days, you know.

Drive on,
Shibu.

Last edited by shibujp : 22nd November 2014 at 11:49.
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Old 22nd November 2014, 12:16   #240
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Default Re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's ridiculous statements

I asked the below question here on TBHP 4 years ago...

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Originally Posted by Sankar View Post
Safety is an accessory in India. This is what we see in the way manufacturers market their cars here providing safety as an option in their higher end models. This is often a concern for the car buying public who are looking for active safety measures, but does not need to spend for the baggage such as in car entertainment and other creature comforts.

Within a limited budget imagine the car buying public has two options to go for:
Option A) A smaller car with ABS, EBD & airbags
Option B) A larger car without active safety features.

Consider 'option A' as an A Star ZXI with ABS, EBD, Airbags etc and 'option B' as a Ritz LXI. A Star ZXI has better safety features but Ritz is a larger car and maybe better engineered too.

Links pointing to EuroNCAP rating of both A Star and Ritz:
Euro NCAP - For safer cars | Suzuki Alto
Euro NCAP - For safer cars | Suzuki Splash

But please bear in mind that these Euro models have multiple airbags and are not exactly the variants we get here. This is just to give an idea of how both vehicles if equipped with Airbags etc would fare in the crash and Ritz scores better in this regard.

But here, in this post, we are comparing A Star ZXI ABS/EBD/Airbags with Ritz LXI, which car would offer better crash protection? Which car is safer?
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/hatchb...-ritz-lxi.html (Which car is safer? A Star ZXI or Ritz LXI?)

So i guess i finally have a conclusive answer after these Indian car crash tests. Its now obvious that the Ritz with no airbags would score ZERO stars and the AStar with 2 airbags would atleast score 2 if not 3 stars.

But we all know majority (including me :( ) would love to purchase the Ritz LXI instead of the AStar ZXI (yes i know this comparo is not relevant now). The reason i asked this question then was due because the these two models cost almost the same money.
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