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Old 27th July 2015, 22:01   #346
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Default Re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's ridiculous statements

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Originally Posted by Acharya View Post
I tend to agree that mandatory airbags are NOT going to help road accidents or fatalities in significant manner in India.
Interesting...

Quote:
There are many other things which require first attention, such as -
1. Safety bars on side/ back of all trucks, which can withhold at least 40km hit.
2. Standardize width of commercial vehicles
3. Safety for padestrians and two wheelers on roads
4. .....
The list is long and airbags do not appear in top 10 safety mechanism to reduce fatalities.
You have mentioned only 3, I would be interested to see the other 7 points that you feel will reduce fatalities more than the airbags

Quote:
Simply increasing seat belt usage could make huge difference in car fatalities.
Agreed but Airbags comes after after the Seatbelts. Airbags are SRS(secondary/supplementary restraint system) and Seatbelts can be called as PRS (Primary Restraint system)

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in Indian context it is not really relavant where your front bumper will remain intact while iron rod pierce thru unopened airbags and rest of the car/ passanger.
What according to you is the percentage of such accidents?
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Old 27th July 2015, 22:24   #347
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Default Re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's ridiculous statements

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The government needs to take the question of road safety more seriously. To say put airbags in the cars and the roads will become safer is rubbish.
He's correct with this statement.

Fatalities will reduce with airbags in place, but we still have a long way to go before the number of accidents (crashes) reduce.

Three glaring points:
  1. Driving License test: The Indian government's license system is rubbish. Who can't get licenses without driving a car? You get a test by slotting a car in first, driving a few hundred meters, taking a U-turn etc. A test that finishes in 5 minutes flat.

    Most driving schools don't teach you about rules, right of way, safe overtaking, pedestrian rights, lane discipline.
  2. Driving Sense: How can you correct older drivers? Can we ask them to write a test again? How can an old driver unlearn his old habits?
  3. Complacency: This is the most dangerous thing. I think many drivers will assume that their car is safer and start speeding more recklessly.

There's also medical care. Ambulances aren't the fastest things in India.

Also, the cars are tested at a certain speed only (revised periodically). Eg: 64 kmph for frontal impact in Euro NCAP. Statistics show that most crashes occur at this speed. If you crash at 120 kmph, your chances of survival is very less.

Last edited by landcruiser123 : 27th July 2015 at 22:25.
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Old 28th July 2015, 10:10   #348
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Default Re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's ridiculous statements

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Originally Posted by hemanth.anand View Post
Interesting...

You have mentioned only 3, I would be interested to see the other 7 points that you feel will reduce fatalities more than the airbags

What according to you is the percentage of such accidents?
There were more than 31000 accidents due to protruding load in year 2013, more than 9700 people were killed and almost 34000 people were injured.
(source - http://revista.dgt.es/images/informe...India-2013.pdf)

My wish list is given below. The key point is Indian roads have highly varied nature of dangers, airbags may or maynot help in all situations. Making basic safety measures to remove such dangers should be the top priority, airbags could help when we could establish predictability of trafiic on Indian roads.


1. Safety bars on side/ back of all trucks, which can withhold at least 40km hit.
2. Standardize width of commercial vehicles
3. Safety for pedestrians and two wheelers on roads
4. Removing cuts (without signals) on all highways
5. Provide seatbelts on all highway buses
6. Remove vehicles older than 20 years from all roads
7. Cancelling of license and seize vehicle for wrong way drivers, especially on highway
8. Stop entry of cattle on all national highways
9. Introduce minimum speed on national highway (car traveling on 100kmph and a threewheeler with 35kmph is surely a recipe for disaster)
10. Removal of Alcohol shops on highways
11. Control overloading and overcrowding
12. Stop carrying people like cattle in good carriers
...
... the list is very long before I start thinking about airbags....

p.s. - I drive a car with 6 airbags and do not ever wish to be in a situation to use them. There are better safety mechanism (such as safe driving) than depending on airbags.
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Old 28th July 2015, 11:04   #349
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Default Re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's ridiculous statements

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Originally Posted by Acharya View Post
... the list is very long before I start thinking about airbags....
Agree with the gentleman here. While I am all for giving utmost priority to having as many safety features as possible in any vehicle, there are a lot more that govt can do / should do for road safety. As shown in the chart below, the LMV group contribute to approximately 17% of fatal accidents where as the two/three wheeler ( and pedestrians) group is close to 51%. [ chart courtesy - data.gov.in report ]
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Old 28th July 2015, 11:53   #350
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acharya View Post
There were more than 31000 accidents due to protruding load in year 2013, more than 9700 people were killed and almost 34000 people were injured.

(source - http://revista.dgt.es/images/informe...India-2013.pdf)



My wish list is given below. The key point is Indian roads have highly varied nature of dangers, airbags may or maynot help in all situations. Making basic safety measures to remove such dangers should be the top priority, airbags could help when we could establish predictability of trafiic on Indian roads.





1. Safety bars on side/ back of all trucks, which can withhold at least 40km hit.

2. Standardize width of commercial vehicles

3. Safety for pedestrians and two wheelers on roads

4. Removing cuts (without signals) on all highways

5. Provide seatbelts on all highway buses

6. Remove vehicles older than 20 years from all roads

7. Cancelling of license and seize vehicle for wrong way drivers, especially on highway

8. Stop entry of cattle on all national highways

9. Introduce minimum speed on national highway (car traveling on 100kmph and a threewheeler with 35kmph is surely a recipe for disaster)

10. Removal of Alcohol shops on highways

11. Control overloading and overcrowding

12. Stop carrying people like cattle in good carriers

...

... the list is very long before I start thinking about airbags....



p.s. - I drive a car with 6 airbags and do not ever wish to be in a situation to use them. There are better safety mechanism (such as safe driving) than depending on airbags.

I think there is at least one fundamental difference between your list of priorities and airbags. The airbags is an individual choice which only requires a dip in ones own wallet. If all fails so to speak and your list is a good indication of what should be improved, who is going to wait till everybody else do what they should be doing or will each of us do the max, as an individual can do to protect one's life and those others with you in the car.

This is an individual choice versus all these undefined collective responsibility.

At the end of the day I don't think anybody can shed one's own responsibility. You can point to others what they should be doing, but that doesn't absolve one from taking one's own responsibility to the max.

Jeroen
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Old 28th July 2015, 11:56   #351
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Default Re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's ridiculous statements

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Originally Posted by landcruiser123 View Post
Complacency: This is the most dangerous thing. I think many drivers will assume that their car is safer and start speeding more recklessly.
its not complacency but foolishness. Unfortunately we have many such fools on our road.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acharya View Post
There were more than 31000 accidents due to protruding load in year 2013, more than 9700 people were killed and almost 34000 people were injured.
(source - http://revista.dgt.es/images/informe...India-2013.pdf)
1. Protruding loads doesn't always mean protruding rods. Protruding loads means any load which is out of the physical dimensions of the vehicles.
something like this:
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2. even if we consider all of them as protruding roads, it may not always pierce through a vehicle and kill the occupants (Ok, It may form a major part of the accidents involving rods protruding out of the truck)
3. Even if all of that is considered to be rods and piercing through the vehicles and killing people, 9700 and 34000 is only ~7% of the total 1,37,500 and 4,94,900 respectively.

What I'm trying to say is that the probability of Airbags not deploying is less.

Quote:
My wish list is given below. The key point is Indian roads have highly varied nature of dangers, airbags may or may not help in all situations. Making basic safety measures to remove such dangers should be the top priority, airbags could help when we could establish predictability of traffic on Indian roads.
1. Safety bars on side/ back of all trucks, which can withhold at least 40km hit.
2. Standardize width of commercial vehicles
3. Safety for pedestrians and two wheelers on roads
4. Removing cuts (without signals) on all highways
5. Provide seatbelts on all highway buses
6. Remove vehicles older than 20 years from all roads
7. Cancelling of license and seize vehicle for wrong way drivers, especially on highway
8. Stop entry of cattle on all national highways
9. Introduce minimum speed on national highway (car travelling on 100kmph and a three-wheeler with 35kmph is surely a recipe for disaster)
10. Removal of Alcohol shops on highways
11. Control overloading and overcrowding
12. Stop carrying people like cattle in good carriers
...
... the list is very long before I start thinking about airbags....
I definitely agree that there are many other things that also need to improve to make our roads safer.
In your list, 10 of the 12 points are prevention measures or in a sense, PRS. While Airbags are SRS.
Containment of a damage is first thing to do and attacking the root cause comes after that (This is called as the 8D approach as I've learnt it and practice it in my profession)
The list you have provided will prevent the accident from occurring. Airbags will curtail the number of deaths when accidents occur.
So, it becomes all the more important for India that Airbags are present before the root causes are corrected(because we all know that it will take hell of a lot of time).
Mandatory airbags are a start to many more things that need to improve in making our roads safer.

Quote:
p.s. - I drive a car with 6 airbags and do not ever wish to be in a situation to use them. There are better safety mechanism (such as safe driving) than depending on airbags.
I wish you never encounter a situation where you need to use your airbags

Safe driving will surely help but as you have told, the unpredictable and varied nature of dangers in our country can cause an accident any time and Airbags are helpful in saving lives in many cases if not all.

Last edited by hemanth.anand : 28th July 2015 at 12:00.
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Old 28th July 2015, 12:05   #352
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Default Re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's ridiculous statements

Quote:
Originally Posted by hemanth.anand View Post
The list you have provided will prevent the accident from occurring. Airbags will curtail the number of deaths when accidents occur.

I wish you never encounter a situation where you need to use your airbags
Thanks!!

Fully agree with what you've said. However, as Jeroen said "This is an individual choice versus all these undefined collective responsibility."
Each individual has to think about his safety and almost all cars nowadays offer airbag as an option.

When it comes to collective responsibility, I expect Govt to be in the lead and take preventive measures first, before making airbags mandatory.

I respect your views, may be we agree to disagree on this one point here.
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Old 28th July 2015, 14:20   #353
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Default Re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's ridiculous statements

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Originally Posted by landcruiser123 View Post
He's correct with this statement.
[*]Driving License test: The Indian government's license system is rubbish. Who can't get licenses without driving a car? You get a test by slotting a car in first, driving a few hundred meters, taking a U-turn etc. A test that finishes in 5 minutes flat.

Most driving schools don't teach you about rules, right of way, safe overtaking, pedestrian rights, lane discipline.
I agree that the licensing system in India is not anything to be proud of. But, I must say, it is improving. At least from the part of the country I got my licenses from - Trivandrum, Kerala. License test is 2 step process on the test day.

1. Drive in a H pattern track which involves driving in forward and reverse including turning right and left while on reverse. Engine getting off or going off the track (touching the metal rods marking the boundary) will disqualify you immediately. This step is video-graphed to prevent any sort of corruption. It is another matter that the driving schools train you well enough to tackle this track - but the attempt from RTO is honest IMO.

2. Drive on the open road and here the car has to be driven in all the forward gears. I was told that the evaluation is based on various parameters including adjusting driving position, adjustment and usage of ORVM and IRVM, usage of indicators, usage of hand signals, following speed restrictions and other traffic signals, following lanes, overtaking, regard for pedestrians, etc. Engine getting off in the course of driving will also lead to disqualification. However, the total time on the road will be ~ 5-7 mins only.

This was around 2 years back. I am not sure if the process has improved or deteriorated further as of now. I agree there is much more to be tested to evaluate a driver's capability. But I see we are slowly going in the right direction at least in the state where I took the test. I am still hearing stories how my cousins have got the license even without appearing for the tests in states like Tamil Nadu. Hope the centralized process is implemented ASAP and make sure only qualified drivers get to drive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by landcruiser123 View Post
Also, the cars are tested at a certain speed only (revised periodically). Eg: 64 kmph for frontal impact in Euro NCAP. Statistics show that most crashes occur at this speed. If you crash at 120 kmph, your chances of survival is very less.
You are absolutely correct Landcruiser. NCAP tests are conducted at a specific speed which statistically is the around maximum speed at which crashes usually takes place. Crashes at 100 and 120 is highly improbable unless the driver has his foot on the accelerator and dozed off or if there is no way the driver realized the potential crash until the crash actually took place. Usually there is a small time between the moment the driver realizes the chance of a potential crash and the moment the crash actually occurs - in this small time, the brakes are usually slammed and at the moment of impact, usually the relative velocity is around the speeds at which these tests are conducted. This is my understanding on the whole NCAP testing. A crash with a speed exceeding 100 means death in most of the cases.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acharya View Post
My wish list is given below. The key point is Indian roads have highly varied nature of dangers, airbags may or maynot help in all situations. Making basic safety measures to remove such dangers should be the top priority, airbags could help when we could establish predictability of trafiic on Indian roads.

1. Safety bars on side/ back of all trucks, which can withhold at least 40km hit.
2. Standardize width of commercial vehicles
3. Safety for pedestrians and two wheelers on roads
4. Removing cuts (without signals) on all highways
5. Provide seatbelts on all highway buses
6. Remove vehicles older than 20 years from all roads
7. Cancelling of license and seize vehicle for wrong way drivers, especially on highway
8. Stop entry of cattle on all national highways
9. Introduce minimum speed on national highway (car traveling on 100kmph and a threewheeler with 35kmph is surely a recipe for disaster)
10. Removal of Alcohol shops on highways
11. Control overloading and overcrowding
12. Stop carrying people like cattle in good carriers
Acharya, I most definitely agree with most of the points you have mentioned. You have put a lot of thought and come up with this list and I really appreciate you for that

However, most of the points you have put forward are preventive measures - i.e. methods to prevent accidents and thus make the road a safer place. But the purpose of airbags is not that - it is a supplementary measure i.e. to save the occupant in the event of an accident which makes the car a safer one - hope you agree. IMO, importance should be given equally to preventive and precautionary measures. India is a country where people are not at all proactive. We need to be pushed by rules and laws to follow certain things. Occupant safety in vehicles is definitely one of those. While government needs to do a lot of things to make the roads safer, it also needs to make sure the cars are safer too. Only that will complete the circle IMO.

Last edited by Vigkey : 28th July 2015 at 14:22.
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Old 28th July 2015, 16:14   #354
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Default Re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's ridiculous statements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acharya View Post
\
1. Safety bars on side/ back of all trucks, which can withhold at least 40km hit.

2. Standardize width of commercial vehicles
These need to be implemented quickly. Safety bars in trucks are the most important as without them, the car's crumple zone is useless.

Quote:

8. Stop entry of cattle on all national highways
The cattle situation in Karnataka has improved. The GQ is higher and fenced. There are places to pass under the GQ. This is there in some TN highways too.

Quote:

10. Removal of Alcohol shops on highways
No 1 priority for the Govt.

Quote:

11. Control overloading and overcrowding
About this, there was a post on the NGT thread on how overloading works out well in terms of economics. Unless corruption is removed, no way we can prevent overloading.

Quote:

...
... the list is very long before I start thinking about airbags....
I differ here. Airbags are a requirement so that lives can be saved. But driving sense has to be improved drastically.

Quote:

p.s. - I drive a car with 6 airbags and do not ever wish to be in a situation to use them. There are better safety mechanism (such as safe driving) than depending on airbags.
Hope you never get into that situation.


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Originally Posted by Vigkey View Post
I agree that the licensing system in India is not anything to be proud of. But, I must say, it is improving.
That's good news.

Quote:


Crashes at 100 and 120 is highly improbable unless the driver has his foot on the accelerator and dozed off
Have you been on the GQ? During my drive to Goa, I was doing 100 kmph on on the GQ. The XUVs and the i20s just zoom past you at crazy speeds. They could easily be doing 150 kmph.

Quote:

While government needs to do a lot of things to make the roads safer, it also needs to make sure the cars are safer too. Only that will complete the circle IMO.
Safer roads is easier to start with. It's the bigger problem. If we has law abiding drivers, we wouldn't have a death rate like this.

It's just that the government doesn't need to:
  1. Wait for crash test implementation till 2017
  2. Doesn't need to set standards for car manufacturers
  3. Study to determine how to set standards. We have the driving laws, we have to close the loopholes in implementation
All the government needs to do is establish a brand new procedure for obtaining DLs.
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Old 2nd September 2015, 15:57   #355
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Default Re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's ridiculous statements

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Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
In the next 10 (or even 5) years, I expect the absolute number of traffic-related deaths to rise exponentially, despite the new Road Transport & Safety Bill becoming law soon - simply because there is no focus on driver training / education / testing, only on hiking penalties.

In the end, safety tech in vehicles cannot replace driver education - one has to work symbiotically with the other; one cannot argue that either of these (passive safety features or driver training and education) is not a necessity. And this is where the trouble lies - not only does Maruti's chairman not want safer cars, Maruti's IDTR/MDS is also not interested in producing safer drivers in reality.

Your love for India shines through in all your posts. Thank you.
Seeing this very late, but thanks for all your well-thought-out comments. We agree on much, and as for the few remaining points, well, to each his own.

I WILL say (as an additional example of ABS's limitations) that I saw a nearly new BMW slide out into the lane of traffic the other day from a steep ramp off an elevated parking area, and it was clear enough to see what happened: He started braking all right, but getting near the level paving of the road, the lack of articulation in that sporty BMW suspension had the car slightly lift (or take most of the weight off) his left front wheel - at which time the ABS sensed that the wheel was locking, reduced pressure to ALL the wheels (in order to prevent the hated loss of lateral control and make him stop straight), and the car just started rolling forward with hardly any inhibition, till it got on level ground again, and the tyres gripped more evenly again. Of course, he'd had full STEERING (NOT braking) control and was able to steer himself in the only place he wouldn't hit the parked cars straight ahead at the bottom - BUT the ABS's cut of braking force had allowed him to roll right out into a road of moving traffic by that time, which could've got him hit easily by another. In fact, this happened in the path of our moving low-tech Marshal, and fortunately our low-tech brakes (and dreadful bias-ply tyres) were working well enough to not get near to hitting him. Especially as we were driving at a speed in line with our car's lack of raw handling/braking abilities. Which is "safe".

Today there's a bandh call in Manali protesting a new rule - haven't found an extract of that new rule yet, but the local interpretation is that if an accident occurs between a larger and a smaller vehicle, the driver of the larger vehicle will be required to pay compensation (of 7lakhs?) to the driver of the smaller car. Brilliant.

So I head home, disgusted to hear of what sounds another seriously ridiculous rule, and go no further than a couple km's before I come across an extremely rashly, extremely overspeeding little Maruti Alto tearing up the Rohtang Road, departing Manali through a highly populated, shop-lined Tibetan Colony. And I'm thinking: That guy must be feeling just on top of the world today. He's having great fun driving like a complete idiot, and he knows well that even if he causes a wreck (with anything but another Alto or 800), he's going to emerge considerably better off financially that he'll be able to afford a better car tomorrow...

As for me, I suppose I should've been happy I was on my bike rather than driving the Marshal. I stand to lose my body against that Alto, but at least I (or those family members surviving me) will be better off financially.

Insane. What are people (drivers and lawmakers alike) thinking???

-Eric

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Old 14th September 2015, 17:39   #356
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Default Re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's ridiculous statements

The crash test speed (64kmph) is way too low. Statistically 64kmph maybe the speed at which most crashes occur but dont they have to include relative velocity? Crashing at 64kmph into a pole is one thing. Wont crashing head on onto another car traveling at 64kmph make it a 128kmph crash? I dont know the statistic for head on crashes but shouldnt the crash test be dont at atleast 80kmph?
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Old 9th January 2016, 22:20   #357
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Default Re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's ridiculous statements

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Crashing at 64kmph into a pole is one thing. Wont crashing head on onto another car traveling at 64kmph make it a 128kmph crash?
No, this is a common misconception. Two cars crashing at 64 kph is NOT equivalent to crashing into a non-deformable wall at 128 kph. It is in fact, exactly the same as crashing into a non-deformable wall at 64 kph.

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Old 9th January 2016, 22:37   #358
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Default Re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's ridiculous statements

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Originally Posted by GeneralJazz View Post
The crash test speed (64kmph) is way too low. Statistically 64kmph maybe the speed at which most crashes occur but dont they have to include relative velocity? Crashing at 64kmph into a pole is one thing. Wont crashing head on onto another car traveling at 64kmph make it a 128kmph crash? I dont know the statistic for head on crashes but shouldnt the crash test be dont at atleast 80kmph?
Even if the car travel at 100kmph, it's very rare that the crash will happen at the same speed. He will definitely apply brakes seeing that a danger is nearby, and speed will come down drastically.

Otherwise, it should be a case like brake failure or driver goes asleep. We can't test it for all occassions like these, anyway.
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Old 18th March 2016, 00:40   #359
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Default Re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's ridiculous statements

A friend today referred me to an author and book of studies/essays in which (among other things) ABS, and the question of why its introduction (at some stage, at least) actually led to a statistically significant increase in accidents - is treated in a very well-written and thoughtful manner. Seems he gets quite into a study of our concepts of safety, risk, etc - and probably (inevitably) human psychology. Trying to get my hands on it personally, but till then:

Malcom Gladwell: What the Dog Saw

Thanks,
Eric
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Old 18th March 2016, 15:35   #360
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Default Re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's ridiculous statements

responding "off the cuff" to your post, and wondering if there are assertions that more safety devices make people less careful?

Sadly, it is true. (well, I suppose I should append an in my humble opinion!) I believe that one can find posts here that imply that, ABS, for example, allows a person to drive faster and/or with less concern for basic safety.

My thinking is this: I look for ABS when buying a car; after that, I forget it. If it functions at all, then some sort of emergency or problem has occurred. In normal driving, it is sitting there doing absolutely nothing, and I would be very happy if it was to do absolutely nothing through my driving life! Life (including my driving) being imperfect, that will probably not be the case, but, because I have ABS will never, ever actively influence, or be seen to be an enabling influence, in any driving manouvere that I make.
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