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Old 15th November 2014, 00:38   #91
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Default Re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's ridiculous statements

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Originally Posted by DReddy View Post
Every time I see discussions like these on TBHP I can't help but get frustrated about why all you beautiful folks get to stay out of our auto industry, while people who care a damn about how their work would affect the "mango man" using their creations are currently sitting in the R&D departments of our auto makers.

I am making another sincere appeal to do something about taking all this positive energy into our auto companies, the places where it is sorely missed(by people like me) and is needed the most.
Though what you say is correct, I don't think that will solve things in an auto company. Thought the employee may be and enthusiast, a petrol head who knows his subject, and will be a promoter of safety as people do here. When the top level management is itself careless about safety, do you think the lower level designers or product planners will have the freedom to insist on safety aspects? For a mechanical engineer to strengthen the chassis, he should justify the extra weight added to the car and the extra money that needs to be spent on each car. For a product planner to introduce airbags in all cars, he should again convince the higher ups. Hence, the organisational system will supress any talent and convert it to a profit oriented and cost efficient guy who will generate more revenue. If not, the lower level employee could even lose his job right?

Speaking about costs, I didn't mention it earlier. If a large volume player like Maruti insisted on bringing safety features here, they could have drastically reduced the material costs compared to the current scenario. Localised production could have been started considering the volumes they sell. It is just that they are least bothered about doing it.

In short, the kitna deti hai campaign has costed them a lot now. If a company can promise ABS manufacturer a demand for around 80k units per month, they would be happy to supply the same at a lesser cost than what they would do for around 8k cars per month for example. Bad way to justify a blow.
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Old 15th November 2014, 00:48   #92
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Default Re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's ridiculous statements

Such attitudes are reprehensible. Even if his stats are correct (which I doubt) - preventing 4% of about 250,000 fatalities is saving 10,000 lives / year. If that is not worth it, then what is?
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Old 15th November 2014, 01:43   #93
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Default Re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's ridiculous statements

Firstly, lets get this straight, he is not 'doodh ka dhula'. He does not care about your life, my life or anyone's life. All he cares about is that his company ka products should be sold. Full stop

If he cared about safety, he would have sold ABS + Airbag equipped versions of Maruti Models without adding any profit on Airbag and ABS kits. For a Manufacturer like Maruti who buys all of these in such bulk, its a matter of 15 to 20 thousand to fix all of this in a car. They can equip all versions with ABS + Airbags and play around with lower-mid-higher models based on accessories while product planning. I can think of 1000000 things which they can differentiate one LXI from a VXI or ZXI, its not rocket science.

Karna chaho toh chand ke neeche bhi padh ke avval number la ho sakte ho, na karna chaho toh Einstein se tuition lekar bhi 0 aa sakta hai.
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Old 15th November 2014, 06:56   #94
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Default Re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's ridiculous statements

Old sins certainly do cast long shadows. Max Morsley must have been constantly reminded of his father's war time dark legacy anytime people differed from his point of view. Openly or slyly this will remain so. I suppose it happens in all spheres. As will his peccadillos.
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Originally Posted by lillios View Post
In my honest opinion, I do feel better safety features/standards need to be incorporated, and yet I/we are biased towards the lower variant of the vehicle for the cost factor. Infact, when my family purchased our car, (2013 Swift VDi), we asked for ABS as an option, but were refused as it was reserved for the top end version only. This was particularly infuriating as I did not have the means to pay for a whole bunch of features I didnt need (Alloy wheels, audio system etc) thus sacrificing the few features I actually needed.

I think with some clever supply chain management, and better marketing, allowing these features as an option in all variants will help in this change. Im sure there are many other people like me who avoid the top end for not wanting to pay for unnecessary features, but would perhaps be interested in adding safety features to the desired variants of cars. (im hinting at some sort of a Mass customization instead of a mass Production system here).
Cheers
But what is of interest to me is what I have quoted from your post. We should have safety options even on the lower variants. For eg. It should be either alloys /music system or airbags and abs rather than only alloys/music and no abs and airbags. We get a real choice then.
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Old 15th November 2014, 07:53   #95
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The Swift is structurally unstable as determined by NCAP. Even the addition of abs or airbags will make no difference to the safety.

The swift is also not an entry level hatchback. The % increase in cost if you make abs and airbags compulsory will not be that drastic since majority car buyers are on finance.

So first response of MSIL should have been that they'll make the swift exactly the same structurally as they sell in EU.

Second response should have been that they'd make safety features at least optional across all variants of all cars they sell today.
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Old 15th November 2014, 08:12   #96
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Originally Posted by audioholic View Post
Though what you say is correct, I don't think that will solve things in an auto company. Thought the employee may be and enthusiast, a petrol head who knows his subject, and will be a promoter of safety as people do here. When the top level management is itself careless about safety, do you think the lower level designers or product planners will have the freedom to insist on safety aspects? For a mechanical engineer to strengthen the chassis, he should justify the extra weight added to the car and the extra money that needs to be spent on each car. For a product planner to introduce airbags in all cars, he should again convince the higher ups. Hence, the organisational system will supress any talent and convert it to a profit oriented and cost efficient guy who will generate more revenue. If not, the lower level employee could even lose his job right?

Speaking about costs, I didn't mention it earlier. If a large volume player like Maruti insisted on bringing safety features here, they could have drastically reduced the material costs compared to the current scenario. Localised production could have been started considering the volumes they sell. It is just that they are least bothered about doing it. .
Exactly my point, if petrolheads start making an effort to enter the industry, at least in support roles such as finance, marketing, etc for now. It would do a great deal in convincing the top management of the importance of safety and how products can be sold by projecting it instead of skimping on it.
We have seen top level executives from the mobile phone industry entering the auto industry, if that is possible then I'm sure that a petrolhead from another industry, who is a middle level finance or marketing professional can easily be taken into a car project. Just the presence of such a person, whose heart is in the right place would make the decision making process in conference rooms much smoother for engineers.
Something like a naukri.com for petrolheads probably, I know people would point me towards the jobs my organization thread, but that's not enough. The companies need to be convinced of the value addition a petrolhead would do even in a non technical role. In a country where a seemingly small thing like choosing a branch of engineering becomes a family decision, this is the only way I can think of to put all this passion into the right place.
If we start now maybe we could see the results at least ten years down the line and avoid spending our hard earned money on something created by a guy who would rather have become a singer but galti se engineer ban gaya. As a petrolhead I would rather prefer another petrolhead on any job which contributes to the creation of the vehicles we love so much.
If you think there is any merit in this line of thought, please keep the discussion going.
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Old 15th November 2014, 08:37   #97
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Default Re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's ridiculous statements

That's pretty illogical statement made by the chairman of Maruti Suzuki.
Why do Suzuki cars sold else where come with standard safety features, why isn't the same philosophy carried over to the other countries ?
I am sorry to say that I have lost my respect for MS and I wouldn't buy a MS car after reading such stupid argument.
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Old 15th November 2014, 09:14   #98
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Default Re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's ridiculous statements

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Originally Posted by lillios View Post
The fact remains that the cars perform so poorly BECAUSE the requirements are so low. In todays day and age with ever increasing costs, in a country like India with a highly price elastic demand, it is HIGHLY NAIVE and irrational to think (from the eyes of a seller) that any manufacturer will try to offer a "feature" which increase their costs, while potentially offering their competitors a price advantage, without any surety of demand, from what is their most profitable demographic in the industry. Such a "risk" may also not be supported by their shareholders, who are ultimately the "owners" of the company. Business ethics as we see, is not well defined, and is a huge grey area of debatable decisions.
Cheers
Bonjour Lillios, Welcome to the forum.

What you have said is the crux of the matter. Mr. Bhargava happens to be the human face to this situation.
Is tarring him going to change the system?

Complete lack of ethics and corruption is rampant country wide. Every individual out there behaves in the most selfish manner, be it roads, trains, buses, queues.

There is a highly desensitized morality that has accepted all types of criminals in society and Government.

Yes, safety features are important, so is progress in every direction. Any dimwit knows that.

In this context, to single out and ridicule Mr. Bhargava for voicing out his company's policy, which sadly reflects the state of affairs in our country, is silly and futile.

But don't let me stop you from having a good time.

Cheers
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Old 15th November 2014, 10:05   #99
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Default Re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's ridiculous statements

Indians have different standards of personal hygiene.
- CWG 2010 OC Secretary General Lalit Bhanot (Link)

Indians *need* different standards of safety.
- Chairman of Maruti Suzuki RC Bhargava (Link)

2 idiotic statements from very senior officials of Govt of India.
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Old 15th November 2014, 10:08   #100
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Default Re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's ridiculous statements

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He said that a “commercial angle” is always present in pushing such technologies.
Even R C Bhargava has the same commercial angle for opposing the safety features in Indian cars. Did Government of India make seat belts, emission norms, first-aid kit, spare wheel, warning triangle with reflectors and spare bulbs mandatory due to pressure from the manufacturers and vendors? Notwithstanding the commercial angle argument, the real intention of Maruti Suzuki is profiteering at the cost of precious human lives.
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Old 15th November 2014, 10:42   #101
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Default Re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's ridiculous statements

Very sad and shocking that people in such positions make irresponsible statements like these
Just shows their callous attitude towards safety, it's not even an after-thought for them, devil may care attitude.
But, we're in such a country where all this will go unnoticed, public memory is short and Maruti will still rule the roost
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Old 15th November 2014, 10:57   #102
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Default Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's ridiculous statements

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Originally Posted by Aragorn View Post
Folks, this thread is turning out to be intolerant of a second opinion. Any pragmatic opinion has been shot down.
Actually the article @lillios posted gave me pause for thought. Notwithstanding the ad hominem crap about Max Mosley's dad being a Nazi and the apparent S@M shenanigans he indulges in, the parts about NCAP's alleged and proven corruption when it comes to testing hit home.

But at the end of the day, as an educated and aware consumer, I need to do the best I can to minimise risk to myself, my family and others on the road. To that end Bodies like NCAP play a vital role. So I cannot be persuaded to dismiss all they say simply because they have a hidden agenda or their CEO is a cad.

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When the government wants to impose Europe levels of safety, will they also move to a European level of taxation for automobiles? The taxation structure in our country almost inflates the price of a car by 50-60% over the ex-factory price. Like someone pointed out, can the government not incentivise this for a certain period in the interest of the population?
Irrelevant. Taxation is an economic decision taken for reasons of fiscal prudence. A more legitimate question is...if you want full-spec European cars to drive should you also adhere to the safety and maintenance aspects that come with it? To me the answer is a resounding Yes.
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From very recent memory, the whole ruckus about wearing helmets in Pune comes to mind. The media does not help in any small measure when they actually provide coverage to organisations dedicated to opposing the helmet rule! Imagine a day when the same media which carried these NCAP reports starts highlighting that starting next month, car prices set to go up by 50,000 because of "safety equipment". Won't there be a public out cry against this?
I live in Pune and my take is...let there be a backlash! The media reported that Pune's "intelligentsia" (what an oxymoron!) were up on arms against the helmet rule. I see no problem with them similarly fighting anti Airbag and child seat legislation. Let them...hopefully people have more sense.
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In conclusion however, I do agree that Mr. Bhargava should have been a little more pragmatic in his views and not sound so immature. It is setting a wrong precedent. But put yourself in his shoes where he has to balance the interests of his shareholders with the customers - and on this occasion he unfortunately chose the former over the latter.

This thread will run for many pages - but let us not target the individual unnecessarily - after all he has made a significant contribution in putting India on the global automotive map.
Which is why what he says causes so much chagrin! He is the doyen of the automobile revolution in India and needs to be more responsible. The 80s were a different era, one on which the humble desk junta were just so excited at the prospect of being "allowed" to drive a "foreign"car. Now we have simultaneous global launches and world class expressways. It is not the same...and Bhargava should know better.

Last edited by noopster : 15th November 2014 at 10:58.
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Old 15th November 2014, 11:18   #103
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Default Re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's ridiculous statements

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Originally Posted by DReddy View Post
Exactly my point, if petrolheads start making an effort to enter the industry, at least in support roles such as finance, marketing, etc for now. It would do a great deal in convincing the top management of the importance of safety and how products can be sold by projecting it instead of skimping on it.
We have seen top level executives from the mobile phone industry entering the auto industry, if that is possible then I'm sure that a petrolhead from another industry, who is a middle level finance or marketing professional can easily be taken into a car project. Just the presence of such a person, whose heart is in the right place would make the decision making process in conference rooms much smoother for engineers.
Something like a naukri.com for petrolheads probably, I know people would point me towards the jobs my organization thread, but that's not enough. The companies need to be convinced of the value addition a petrolhead would do even in a non technical role. In a country where a seemingly small thing like choosing a branch of engineering becomes a family decision, this is the only way I can think of to put all this passion into the right place.
If we start now maybe we could see the results at least ten years down the line and avoid spending our hard earned money on something created by a guy who would rather have become a singer but galti se engineer ban gaya. As a petrolhead I would rather prefer another petrolhead on any job which contributes to the creation of the vehicles we love so much.
If you think there is any merit in this line of thought, please keep the discussion going.
I think what you are saying makes absolute sense, BUT 'India ka chaal chalan hi alag hai bhai'. I am a Diesel head, I have studied in this field, I have an MBA related to this field too, all done from UK but what are they looking for here ? People who can listen to them, not think what they are saying and directly act on it without using any iota of their own head. Dumb donkey's basically.

When I had met the Product Planning head of a very good Automotive company for a job interview in New Product Planning. I had mentioned about so many things things which would have changed their fortune and some of them had the safety aspect covered, some of the other things had new VERY cheap innovative ideas which would put their cars on a different league then the competition since their cars were not particularly doing well. Some of the things which we discussed in the interview, they had never heard of and really loved the ideas.

What did I get ? Functional interview was awesome and you were A + all over, we know where to place you too and you are on at our company and all that jazz. After some weeks, 'Sorry there are no placements, THE HR has your resume though and whenever something opens we'll get back to you'. THE HR's in our country work on a different mentality all together. They read the resume, ah not much experience and directly resume goes in the dustbin. How do they know that someone without much experience but with a lot of passion and education in the field can do wonders too. They don't accept this fact even after an interview goes excellent, their standard reply 'Yeah interviews were good, BUT STILL, experience zyada nahi hai'. These people who have no knowledge in the field they are interviewing for, decide on your future' PATHETIC.

I mean, so many mind games, so much politics and more over they feel threatened that this guy will take over place after some years etc etc is what these heads feel if an interview goes well. India ka sab se bada rog, selfish self interests take priority over the company's progress. Humse aage koi kaise jaa sakta hai ?

Top management ? They are all uncles who know nothing about the youth of today, nor the products they want and nor do they care about innovation. All they care about is 'Hamara salary aana chahiye'.

I can write an essay on this industry, but well the common retort back is 'India main aisa hi hota hai'. I mean aisa hota hai toh 'KYU' hota hai ?
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Old 15th November 2014, 11:22   #104
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Default Re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's ridiculous statements

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Originally Posted by noopster View Post
Actually the article @lillios posted gave me pause for thought. Notwithstanding the ad hominem crap about Max Mosley's dad being a Nazi and the apparent S@M shenanigans he indulges in, the parts about NCAP's alleged and proven corruption when it comes to testing hit home.
................

Which is why what he says causes so much chagrin! He is the doyen of the automobile revolution in India and needs to be more responsible. The 80s were a different era, one on which the humble desk junta were just so excited at the prospect of being "allowed" to drive a "foreign"car. Now we have simultaneous global launches and world class expressways. It is not the same...and Bhargava should know better.
Very well said. I agree with you completely.

Initially I too thought that we should think of the first time buyers who can barely afford to graduate from a two to four wheeler.

Also, most of us who are speaking out here for more safety features can afford marginal increase in prices. We are in a minority on the whole.

Left to itself, our auro industry will not spend a penny on safety features.

So folks, let us raise our voice and demand safety in vehicles, roads, all such places.
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Old 15th November 2014, 11:38   #105
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Originally Posted by humyum View Post
I think what you are saying makes absolute sense, BUT 'India ka chaal chalan hi alag hai bhai'. I am a Diesel head, I have studied in this field, I have an MBA related to this field too, all done from UK but what are they looking for here ? People who can listen to them, not think what they are saying and directly act on it without using any iota of their own head. Dumb donkey's basically.

I can write an essay on this industry, but well the common retort back is 'India main aisa hi hota hai'. I mean aisa hota hai toh 'KYU' hota hai ?
Perfect question to ask - "Aisa kyu hota hain".
Don't you think, if a portal like ours with its 40k strong community starts putting these questions to the auto industry bigwigs, something might come out of it.
We don't even have to look outside, I am sure that the industry veterans on this forum are enough to shake up the scene if they wish to do so.
In the meantime though, you have another frustrated soul in me to back you up bro...
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