Go Back   Team-BHP > BHP India > The Indian Car Scene


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 15th November 2014, 11:46   #106
Senior - BHPian
 
sourabhzen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: GURGAON
Posts: 1,541
Thanked: 1,277 Times
Default Re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's ridiculous statements

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbppjpr View Post
Start reading users manual of any Maruti car and you will find more tips on saving fuel rather than tips on safety. If they can make people of India so much fuel conscious then why they can't make them aware about safety?

But safety has never been a priority for Maruti so safety first or last is not even in question here. Then the statements coming from the guys at top position in Maruti are comparable to statements coming from leaders of UP-Bihar, what more can be expected from them.
You are wrong. leaders in UP or Bihar are ay least thinking about one section of their region (that's why they get elected). Bhargav is thinking only about the company's profit. On the question of saving fuel and safety last, I would suggest that Maruti shall now promote car less travel. That will be more apt to their ideology than making such intelligent statements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gthang View Post
While safety is and should always be first, let's not jump to conclusions.

Airbags and ABS are important safety aids, yes.

But it is possible to be safe without them as well.

What Mr. Maruti is saying is somewhat relevant to India because India is different.

Imagine any village in India. A guy with an Alto driving around in the backroads, and a buffalo/camel/donkey decided to bump his car with their behind. Will the airbags go off? Should it go off? What would he do if it went off?

While it is nice to envision an India with fine roads and good traffic sense, and uber safe cars, the reality is completely different.

A good Samaritan hardly makes a good businessman. But thanks to shrewd businessmen, mobility of several lakhs have improved.

Are we qualified to judge?

Cheers
All issues raised by you can be resolved by engineering the systems. mobility of several lakhs is improved but Maruti has potential to improve it even further and they must do it. They, in turn, are making some profits. Now its time for them to be leaders and induce innovative safety features that will cater to Indian roads. Some money spent on R&D on safety will help them in longer run. As of now they are becoming followers in terms of innovation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skdking View Post
Initially I too thought that we should think of the first time buyers who can barely afford to graduate from a two to four wheeler.

So folks, let us raise our voice and demand safety in vehicles, roads, all such places.
I had similar thoughts initially. Raising voice will have no impact unless it is reflected in the sales and I do not see that happening soon.
sourabhzen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th November 2014, 12:15   #107
BHPian
 
Nissan1180's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Singapore
Posts: 379
Thanked: 721 Times
Default Re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's ridiculous statements

The discussion about the statement made by an industry stalwart is interesting. Many view points have emerged, with a majority of them condemning the statement and the company for making compromised products.
However, India is a very peculiar country.
I hate most products from Maruti except the recently launched Ciaz and the historically relevant Maruti 800. That does not prevent me from appreciating that MSIL is the only company in India to understand the customer expectations fully and delivering to them what they want. When you analyse the comments made by Mr. Bhargava, you'll see that most people in India think in this manner. They have a fatalistic mindset, pampered by the chaos that rules the roads. I know people who have been injured in car accidents, but won't spend a penny more to get the basic safety kit. As long as the car has the bells and whistles to satisfy the owners ego, get the neighbours attention and command a good resale value, the customer is highly satisfied.

This brings me to the question of customization. Almost all cars <10L sold in India have a suspension set up that is tuned for good pot hole crunching ability rather than high speed handling excellence. Most cars have engines tuned for fuel efficiency rather than outright performance. Can we have a specific set of safety features that are relevant only to the Indian and other emerging markets? For developing that mindset, the first requirement is the availability of data regarding accidents- good data that shows how many cars have been affected by side collisions, frontal impacts and rear impacts. That would allow engineers to develop structural safety mechanisms that protect those sections of the vehicle that have the highest probability of getting hit.

I know someone whose Tata Indigo LX was rear ended by a loaded truck coming at around 20-30 kmph. The car was stationary and had to bear the full force of the impact. He was surprised that the good sheet metal in the Indigo saved him from even a scratch! The car crushed from the bumper to the rear wheel arch, but there was some strengthening which prevented the force of the impact from transferring to the rear passenger. This proves that good metal, with basic structural strengthening can save more lives than an Airbag, because no car has airbags that protect you from being rear ended, at least cars costing<10L.

I drew a parallel with my experience of getting brushed by a truck near a Toll plaza on NH6. The Maruti Esteem door was torn apart like a tin can and the window mechanism was damaged! The truck was just crawling and drove to the left lane where my car was standing in the queue. I do not have pictures of the car, because I got the gash repaired soon after the incident. Had the truck been moving at a higher speed, I won't have been here to type this. Maruti cars have always been compromised and the response from their CEO shows that this has been a company policy. Full marks to them for their honesty!

The final point that bothers me is that people are talking of safer cars, but who will train the drivers for those cars? I know of many people who know nothing about cars, safety, lanes, markings and road signs and road etiquette like dipping the beam for oncoming vehicles, but have a freshly minted driving license from the notoriously corrupt and inefficient RTO! The government could help a lot by privatising the RTO operations and giving them the authority to turn down applicants who are incapable.
Then there is the issue of roads. Most highways in India are going to follow the "Under construction- Please use Diversion" norm forever. At night, these diversions are very dangerous because most of them have not been marked with reflector strips and an oncoming driver can just bang into them at night! An ABS will help for sure, but that is more like treating the symptom without going into the root cause of the disease.
Making manufacturers comply will never be easy- it is a fiercely competitive market. However, by addressing the fundamentals like RTOs, State Highway maintenance and basic structural integrity tests by ARAI, the government can show that they care.

Last edited by Nissan1180 : 15th November 2014 at 12:18. Reason: I missed giving some space between the paragraphs and also an "s" in the penultimate paragraph
Nissan1180 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th November 2014, 12:20   #108
Senior - BHPian
 
extreme_torque's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 3,546
Thanked: 1,317 Times
Default Re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's ridiculous statements

With the volumes Maruti does I do not think that the quantum of price increase would be more than 10-15k's per car. I am pretty sure if the salesman at the car showroom doesn't take advantage of the ignorance of the customer and actually tell him the advantages of having air bags and abs in cars, many would not mind the premium they will have to pay.

Maruti could have atleast started it as a temp project and seen how people reacted before their chairman came with this ignorant half ass'd logic.
extreme_torque is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th November 2014, 12:27   #109
Senior - BHPian
 
lurker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Tura
Posts: 1,308
Thanked: 641 Times
Default Re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's ridiculous statements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissan1180 View Post
I know someone whose Tata Indigo LX was rear ended by a loaded truck coming at around 20-30 kmph. The car was stationary and had to bear the full force of the impact. He was surprised that the good sheet metal in the Indigo saved him from even a scratch!
It is not good sheet metal but good structural reinforcement beneath that sheet metal that prevented much more serious damage.

Good sheet metal is what Tata Estate, Tata Sierra, Tata Sumo, Mahindra Bolero, Mahindra MM540 etc have. Try getting rear ended in any of those and check if results are the same.
lurker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th November 2014, 12:37   #110
Senior - BHPian
 
StarScream's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Noida/Delhi
Posts: 1,247
Thanked: 633 Times
Default Re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's ridiculous statements

Quote:
Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
With the volumes Maruti does I do not think that the quantum of price increase would be more than 10-15k's per car. I am pretty sure if the salesman at the car showroom doesn't take advantage of the ignorance of the customer and actually tell him the advantages of having air bags and abs in cars, many would not mind the premium they will have to pay.

Maruti could have atleast started it as a temp project and seen how people reacted before their chairman came with this ignorant half ass'd logic.
This is true. If there is one company that can pull it off -- educate the customer and lower the cost -- it is Maruti.
StarScream is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th November 2014, 12:55   #111
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 3,717
Thanked: 425 Times
Default Re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's ridiculous statements

I saw a discussion on automotive safety on NDTV where some foreign guy said cost of 1 airbag is about USD 50 which comes to roughly INR 3,100. Let's double it to INR 7,200. That's about INR 15,000 for 2 airbags (Remember we doubled the cost). Here the Maruti head says airbags will cost INR 30,000 in an Alto. Which figures are right?

As for his logic, in that case why even have crumple zone's? Remove them too to reduce cost and make car's more affordable. Using his logic if tomorrow the govt mandates that biker's will have to wear a helmet and the complete biking gear like gloves, biking shoes, knee pads etc then people will start buying bicycles!

What R.C.Bhargava doesn't address is the structural weakness of some Indian car's. If I recollect the tests properly, car's like Polo had better structural integrity then Swift post an accident. That should be worrying for us Indian's. If this is true, then between the Polo & Swift equipped with airbags the Polo will still be a safer car.

Last edited by amit : 15th November 2014 at 12:56.
amit is offline   (4) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 15th November 2014, 12:58   #112
BHPian
 
Nissan1180's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Singapore
Posts: 379
Thanked: 721 Times
Default Re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's ridiculous statements

Quote:
Originally Posted by lurker View Post
It is not good sheet metal but good structural reinforcement beneath that sheet metal that prevented much more serious damage.
Thank you for the correction.
Nissan1180 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th November 2014, 13:06   #113
GTO
Team-BHP Support
 
GTO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Bombay
Posts: 47,705
Thanked: 89,158 Times
Default Re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's ridiculous statements

Quote:
Originally Posted by amit View Post
What R.C.Bhargava doesn't address is the structural weakness of some Indian cars.
This is a very important point. Airbags don't make an inherently poor structure safe. For instance, you can't fit 6 airbags in an Ambassador and call it a 'safe' car...it has no crumple zones!

The Euro NCAP recently suggested that the Datsun Go has such a weak structure that there's no point adding airbags to it.

Quote:
The Gos body shell is so unstable that it would be pointless to include airbags in the car.
Source

In order of priority:
- Sturdy crashworthy structure
- ABS
- Airbags

Of course, you can swap the priority of ABS / Airbags based on your understanding, but no one can argue on the importance of point no. 1. The car has to be safe to start with. For the Swift, NCAP says:

Quote:
The crash analysis showed the crash-test-dummies having sustained near-fatal injuries, more so in the case of the driver. The car's structural integrity was also deemed as unstable.
This was at merely 64 kmph . Imagine the damage at 120 (realistic speed on most Indian expressways).

Shocker! I shudder to think of the dismal safety available for someone using his WagonR, Celerio or Alto on the highway.
GTO is offline   (8) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 15th November 2014, 13:41   #114
PPS
Senior - BHPian
 
PPS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: mumbai
Posts: 1,938
Thanked: 1,922 Times
Default Re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's ridiculous statements

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Or for that matter, equip your cars with good brakes? Remember the Swift L / V variant brakes? Oh, I'm sorry. That's going to cost you money too, Mr. Bhargava.
Asking for good brakes is too much! This is the same car maker who couldn't even give an ORVM on the left hand side in the first generation Swift Ldi!
Also, Global NCAP has asked Nissan to withdraw the Datsun Go from the market. My question is why only target Nissan? There are other cars which did badly in the tests as well. Why not ask Maruti to withdraw some of their cars!






Quote:
In a way, I applaud VW for - overnight - equipping their cars with airbags after the NCAP test.

Wish others carmakers had done the same thing!
PPS is offline   (4) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 15th November 2014, 14:43   #115
BANNED
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Coimbatore / MENA
Posts: 673
Thanked: 973 Times
Default Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's ridiculous statements

Strange thing about crash worthiness.



No matter which vehicle I drive, I never drive with the CONFIDENCE that the structure has been tested and is worth a certain number of stars.



I drive with the FEAR that my vehicle is made of tin foil and it will not withstand anything. No head-on collision, no side impact, not even an impact with an auto. Even flying stones from trucks scare me. A bicyclist could take my side out.



This FEAR helps. CONFIDENCE never does, because God forbid, I get into an accident that is beyond the crash rating of the vehicle.



As long as the vehicle does not self disintegrate, I am OK. Which I don't think any Maruti will. Cheers

Last edited by noopster : 16th November 2014 at 07:22. Reason: Please stay on-topic
gthang is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th November 2014, 15:21   #116
Senior - BHPian
 
blackasta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Kolkata, WB
Posts: 2,776
Thanked: 955 Times
Default Re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's ridiculous statements

Remember the hullabaloo when govt mandated switch over from carb to MPFI?
In this case too - the govt just has to be firm and let Bhargava & co. blink first.
It's already too late the govt has realized the paramount importance of safety in vehicles - it should not let this opportunity pass.
blackasta is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 15th November 2014, 17:32   #117
BHPian
 
lillios's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Chennai
Posts: 50
Thanked: 83 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gthang View Post
What you have said is the crux of the matter. Mr. Bhargava happens to be the human face to this situation.
Is tarring him going to change the system?
...
...
In this context, to single out and ridicule Mr. Bhargava for voicing out his company's policy, which sadly reflects the state of affairs in our country, is silly and futile.
yes i completely agree with your statement ji, its something I wished to convey too, without explicitly saying it.. we are on the same page here..

Quote:
Originally Posted by noopster View Post
Actually the article @lillios posted gave me pause for thought. Notwithstanding the ad hominem crap about Max Mosley's dad being a Nazi and the apparent S@M shenanigans he indulges in, the parts about NCAP's alleged and proven corruption when it comes to testing hit home.

But at the end of the day, as an educated and aware consumer, I need to do the best I can to minimise risk to myself, my family and others on the road. To that end Bodies like NCAP play a vital role. So I cannot be persuaded to dismiss all they say simply because they have a hidden agenda or their CEO is a cad.


Irrelevant. Taxation is an economic decision taken for reasons of fiscal prudence. A more legitimate question is...if you want full-spec European cars to drive should you also adhere to the safety and maintenance aspects that come with it? To me the answer is a resounding Yes.

I live in Pune and my take is...let there be a backlash! The media reported that Pune's "intelligentsia" (what an oxymoron!) were up on arms against the helmet rule. I see no problem with them similarly fighting anti Airbag and child seat legislation. Let them...hopefully people have more sense.


Which is why what he says causes so much chagrin! He is the doyen of the automobile revolution in India and needs to be more responsible. The 80s were a different era, one on which the humble desk junta were just so excited at the prospect of being "allowed" to drive a "foreign"car. Now we have simultaneous global launches and world class expressways. It is not the same...and Bhargava should know better.
Yes but thats the issue here isnt it? How do we know that Global NCAP will maintain such standards? If their results can be bought, what is the point of getting them over here in the first place? We are better off setting up something indigenous no? Not forcing an opinion, but rather would like to see your point of view on the issue, as were all in the same boat here.

Last edited by Rehaan : 18th November 2014 at 15:49. Reason: Merging consecutive posts
lillios is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th November 2014, 18:00   #118
BHPian
 
hillsnrains's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 321
Thanked: 263 Times
Default Re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's ridiculous statements

There may be some valid points in what Mr.Bhargava has said, but that does not mean we can give less priority to safety (inside car incase of accidents). Most of the points are already touched by fellow members, so i would like to make two points

1. Human life is invaluable, which is much higher than 30,000/- (airbags) and 10,000/- (ABS). So we need to spend/invest as much as we can to save even a single life. Let the prospective car buyer wait for one more year(read to earn/efford that extra bit to have airbags/ABS) and buy the safe car...instead of just car.

2. You sell cars, somebody sells airbags or technology. Thats how whole business is happenning. If MSIL feels airbags price is more, they can design/make same at correct price and sell them. You can earn money here too. VOLVO started working on the pedestrain saftey in case of accidents. This is how we should progress, not by omitting basic safety features.

Bottom line, safety should be first because life is most important.
hillsnrains is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th November 2014, 21:32   #119
BHPian
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 147
Thanked: 210 Times
Default Re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's ridiculous statements

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Shocker! I shudder to think of the dismal safety available for someone using his WagonR, Celerio or Alto on the highway.
Exactly GTO i was driving back from Cochin to Bangalore in my Wagon R and the thought that my car is just a tin can with not even basic reinforcements sent a shudder down my spine and even thought of selling the car as soon as i reach Bangalore !

Worse, on my way spotted an Ertiga turned turtle lying on the opposite side of the highway

Now that i reached and i calmed down a bit, i still regret recommending a Maruti swift to 2 of my friends and every single time i get into my car i have a paranoid fear.

Regarding Bhargava's comments : This could be the opportunity for Maruti to lead from the front and bring about a revolution in the Indian Auto Industry, am just speechless at the kind of reasoning he gives to not do that

To all who feel road infrastructure should improve first - yes it should and it is improving over time but do you think safety features in a car (safe structure+ABS+Airbags) should wait till then?? - Seriously no !

Yes with all safety equipment the drivers erratic driving can seal the deal - but that s not even an argument against basic safety in cars (most of which are loved and driven by good if not decent drivers)

@ Gthang : So will "Fearing" in my mind that the car is a tin foil keep me safe - i dont think so, when i know my car cant even withstand the lightest of impacts - its beyond Fear my friend its paralysis !
The Observer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th November 2014, 21:41   #120
BANNED
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Coimbatore / MENA
Posts: 673
Thanked: 973 Times
Default Re: Safety last? Maruti Chairman Mr. R.C. Bhargava's ridiculous statements

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Observer View Post
@ Gthang : So will "Fearing" in my mind that the car is a tin foil keep me safe - i dont think so, when i know my car cant even withstand the lightest of impacts - its beyond Fear my friend its paralysis !
So I take it you have immediately stopped driving your car, and are in the process of buying a new, safer car.

It should have ABS, for sure. ABS + EBD? Ventilated discs?

Airbags? How can one drive without them? 1 or 2? Curtain bags? Knee bags? Hope the backseat passengers remember to buckle up.

Structurally sound. Roll cage, perhaps?

You're right. It is paranoia. Hope it doesn't keep you away from driving altogether.

Cheers
gthang is offline   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Hiroaki Fujita appointed Chairman for Yamaha India Tushar Motorbikes 0 27th December 2014 12:18
Ferrari Chairman Luca di Montezemolo Quits ashwin.terminat The International Automotive Scene 7 17th October 2014 19:34
Satyam Chairman and MD Resigns crn12 Gadgets, Computers & Software 488 4th November 2011 13:33
Ferrari boss now chairman of Fiat ajmat The International Automotive Scene 7 1st June 2004 16:26
Totally Ridiculous VTEC11 Shifting gears 7 6th May 2004 02:37


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 21:48.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks