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Old 27th November 2014, 23:22   #31
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more than half the vehicles sold in delhi are diesel. anyone who knows anything about cars will tell you that irregardless of emission norms, the vehicles pollute more than almost all 15 + year old petrol vehicles just due to the absence of particulate filters.

i question the competence of the panel made this ruling for they would have mandated fitment of particulate filters in all diesel vehicles new or old if they really had an understanding of the problem.

But since they are mostlikely being bribed by SIAM, the ruling begins to make sense

Quote:
Originally Posted by S.B.Jatti View Post
National Gren Tribunal - Order regarding banning of all vehicles more than fifteen years old in Delhi & NCR.

Sir since the heritage motoring club has so many influential members from the legal community, can we expect them to take the responsibility of making an attempt to overturn this ridiculous ruling?

We can always make logical suggestions on arguments that go against the ban.


Last edited by Eddy : 29th December 2014 at 22:31. Reason: Please use the EDIT or MULTI-QUOTE buttons instead of typing one post after another on the same thread.
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Old 28th November 2014, 09:01   #32
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Default re: Proposal to ban 15 year old vehicles. EDIT: Concept paper released on page 18

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Originally Posted by mycarhasablower View Post
Planning to put in a PIL against this. any guidance and points i can add to it are welcome
I went through the this thread just to find out if there is someone I can join to file a PIL against this arbitrary order. I am happy to help.
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Old 28th November 2014, 09:24   #33
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Default re: Proposal to ban 15 year old vehicles. EDIT: Concept paper released on page 18

In an astonishing manner the National Green Tribunal has ordered a ban on the running of both petrol and diesel vehicles older than 15 years in the National Capital of Delhi. It has ordered the RTO not to renew the registration certificates or issue new certificates to such vehicles and further not to even give fitness certificates to such vehicles. The order also states that any such vehicles found in any public areas are to be towed away, the owner of such vehicle to be fined, appropriate steps to be taken in accordance with the law, including seizure of the vehicles. The order encompasses all two, three and four wheelers, light and heavy vehicles maybe private or commercial.

This step has been taken to check the ever increasing air pollution in Delhi and furthermore the NGT has ordered the construction of cycle tracks in most parts of the city, pollution checks for all state run buses, installation of air purifiers in busy markets, crack down on open burning of plastic, leaves and other waste and parking on tarred roads.

What effect all this has, how effectively the order will be implemented and what will be the effect on the vintage vehicles, vehicles that have already crossed 15 years, those that are going to reach the limit recently and are still running in the city remains to be seen.

Attached Files
File Type: pdf NGT Order.pdf (161.4 KB, 287 views)

Last edited by GTO : 28th November 2014 at 17:51. Reason: Please don't upload scans of copyrighted content. A link to the article is best. Thanks!
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Old 28th November 2014, 09:41   #34
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Red face re: Proposal to ban 15 year old vehicles. EDIT: Concept paper released on page 18

This seems like one of the election populists announcements to woo the voter base in Delhi soon to go to polls. But the sight of smoke spewing vehicles is enough to make the politicians come up with such half baked decisions. ideally their certification process of more than 15 yr old vehicles need to be strengthened rather than banning them totally.

In contrast to this new there's news of govt planning to open Vehicle inspection and planning centres across the country with 10 states chosen for pilot project and Delhi is one of them. The idea behind this initiative seems to check the roadworthiness of the vehicles although not exactly specific to more than 15 yr old vehicles. More details in the link attached.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...w/45282894.cms
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Old 28th November 2014, 09:55   #35
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Default re: Proposal to ban 15 year old vehicles. EDIT: Concept paper released on page 18

As a matter of fact, the Govt should also consider other polluting sources like Industries in the vicinity of mega cities.

Manufacturing industry contribution is far higher than passenger vehicles, if I am not wrong passenger cars in India contribute only 4-5% of the overall pollution.

Having strict norms only for vehicles might not be the sole solution to problem in mega cities.
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Old 28th November 2014, 09:56   #36
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Default re: Proposal to ban 15 year old vehicles. EDIT: Concept paper released on page 18

Further to the order of NGT, it has been reported that the order was issued as a panel formed constituting pollution watchdogs, environment, transport, petroleum and urban development ministries, delhi police commissioner and an IIT Delhi expert failed to submit a substantive report on how to control vehicular and industrial pollution.

The panel now has got time upto 09th January, 2015 to submit that report. Now it is left to be seen that whether this order will be modified in some way to provide relief to those vehicles that abide with the pollution control norms, when the panel submits its report.

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Old 28th November 2014, 10:08   #37
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Default re: Proposal to ban 15 year old vehicles. EDIT: Concept paper released on page 18

I am not sure of this getting implemented anytime soon, yes it is required to work on such strategies yet, it is wrong to follow blindly what is being implemented in the western world.

- The government should start with public transport, while I laugh looking at DTC buses with slogan "The world's largest fleet with CNG operation", it should also read "with oldest buses plying".

- Improve infrastructure first and then look at curbing vehicle population and aging. Also when the pollution is being talked out, they have not carried out any study on the emissions that happen during fresh production (which will increase if the law is implemented). It clearly seem that either they are paid for what they have said or this is a "half cooked half baked" work carried out by them without any firm basis.

- The order talks about providing bypass from Delhi for older vehicles (from neighboring states); thus pollution on the periphery of Delhi is acceptable to NGT !

- The city can breath better simply by traffic management where policing is required at every junction to see that the traffic due to turn right should not block the lanes of traffic going straight and turning left. Most of our junctions have this problem, but hardly any traffic cop is bothered by such instances and instead you will find them hiding 100 m down the signal to catch people jumping red lights.

- PUC throughout the country is a mafia / nexus and should be managed properly; what can be done to today's MPFI / Turbo charged engines at the checking centres? Why should the engine be run on idle and full speed to check for pollution, and thus is being done for good 4 - 5 minutes while the fuel is wasted and the engine is tortured, just for the heck of compliance ! Put a simple pollution surcharge on fuel dispensed. The more you drive, the more you pay !

- Implement next level Euro norms for emissions, since this will have a bearing on Automobile sector for compliance, they will go slow on it ! The world has moved to Euro 6 and beyond, while we have been waiting. What is happening to the upgrading of refineries, they will not act because our Maharatna Oil PSUs and Reliance will not let them do it !


Too bad just that they are sitting on the other side of fence and are making this draconian laws !

Cheers

Last edited by i74js : 28th November 2014 at 10:13.
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Old 28th November 2014, 10:37   #38
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Default Green Tribunal bans 15-year-old vehicles from plying on Delhi Roads

What were they sniffing when they made this rule !!? Oh yeah, Delhi's terrible air pollution. Anyway.

The process of Making & running new cars would overall cause more pollution. Moreover a poorly maintained new car is worse than a well maintained, well understood (by owner) old car.

Apart from this, the higher rate of initial depreciation of newer cars than old ones will make them heavier on the pocket.

Some number crunching should prove the same.

They should only allow refuelling of vehicles with valid PUC certificates. Incentives should be given & control mechanisms put in place to ensure PUC certifying unit is corruption free. This must be implemented somehow.

Anyway. people will have to follow the rule. It's not the worst IMO. A little imprudent, but it does have it's merits.

(Ex. When people are ready to move to LED bulbs costing x15 the regular ones. Such rules shouldn't be very unpopular. I know this analogy doesn't exactly fit, but message is to move to newer less inefficient cars.)

The used car market in Delhi will welcome the move. There are surely umpteen number of 4-5yr old used cars rotting due to poor maintenance available for resale.

Last edited by GrammarNazi : 28th November 2014 at 10:44.
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Old 28th November 2014, 11:46   #39
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Default re: Proposal to ban 15 year old vehicles. EDIT: Concept paper released on page 18

THis is a very short sighted and stupidly delivered decision! Scrapping policies in india do not exist, so it is common man who will suffer.

Instead of stupid verdicts like this, they can copy from EU and implement road tax based on CO2 emited by vehicle. Basically less CO2 emission == less road tax. More CO2 == more road tax.
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Old 28th November 2014, 11:57   #40
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Default re: Proposal to ban 15 year old vehicles. EDIT: Concept paper released on page 18

Quote:
Originally Posted by abhishek46 View Post
THis is a very short sighted and stupidly delivered decision! Scrapping policies in india do not exist, so it is common man who will suffer.

Instead of stupid verdicts like this, they can copy from EU and implement road tax based on CO2 emited by vehicle. Basically less CO2 emission == less road tax. More CO2 == more road tax.
Implementation is a big problem here. If the rule you suggest comes into real effect, then automatically all our vehicles would be placed in the max bracket if not bribed. My thinking is that any new rule with the intention of controlling, curbing or tightening, will only help the corrupt officials to fill their pockets. And despite having our vehicles and all else in order, we will have to pay bribes to get valid certificates. Also, more the laws, more the criminals!

Also, more than private cars, public transport and commercial vehicles should be the first to get into this phase. Since the sale of Non- EuroII compliant vehicles was stopped in Delhi quite some time back, the state will be automatically be devoid of such vehicles in due time. Hence, a controlled and phased policy will be better than just passing a sudden judgment in tribunal.

My 2 cents on the matter;

Regards,
Saket
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Old 28th November 2014, 12:05   #41
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Default re: Proposal to ban 15 year old vehicles. EDIT: Concept paper released on page 18

We'll soon see a lot of heavily polluting private cars older than 12 years where the owner wouldn't be willing to invest a single penny on maintenance since it has to be scrapped anyway in 3 years. That would make the pollution situation much worse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reinhard View Post
I wonder who drives this so called "green commission". Perhaps someone from an auto company that is consistently making losses?
The manufacturers with low sales are still going to make losses. More sales=More Maruti/Hyundai.

When such new laws are in place, I don't see the value add in investing in a brand like Honda or Toyota whose engines last for 3 lakh km. I would have to scrap these cars much before that anyway for an average yearly running of around 10k.

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Originally Posted by tilt View Post
As other here have mentioned, this immediately prevents classics and other well-maintaned non-classics from existing, not to mention affecting those of us who are not privileged enough to afford newer vehicles.
There is a catch to this category of people - it could include one set like the retired folks who invested in a good car when they retired and would be maintaining it well but cannot afford another new car. These cars run minimal mileage and are unlikely to be polluting.

The other part of this category are those who are in their prime age and cannot afford a new car as they would have a lot of additional financial commitments. If someone belonging to that category cannot afford a new car, it is unlikely that they would be able to properly maintain a 15+ year old car either. I have a 19 year old Zen and I've experienced how the maintenance expenses start to shoot up after 12 years or so if I want to keep it in top shape. If I'm okay with ignoring the early signs and letting it run till it falls apart, none of these work needs to be done for a few more years and the car would still 'run'.

In any case, the resale value of cars would plummet after 5 years and someone who cannot currently afford a 10 year old car now might easily be able to afford a 10 year old car in the new era since the resale value would come down as well due to the fact that it has only 5 years of usable life left.
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Old 28th November 2014, 12:08   #42
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Default re: Proposal to ban 15 year old vehicles. EDIT: Concept paper released on page 18

An important thing which people forget is the "enviromental cost of a new car".
What is the environmental cost of 10 lakh new cars on the environment in general.

I know people with old vehicles in California and Europe, and these guys have to clear emission tests and fitness tests. If vehicle is fit, age does not matter. That is the correct approach as opposed to use and throw, which sadly is the mantra in today's world.
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Old 28th November 2014, 12:31   #43
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Default re: Proposal to ban 15 year old vehicles. EDIT: Concept paper released on page 18

Any idea if the rule applies to a reva or e2o? And what about the expected Tata's air car - the mini cat which would run on compressed air. Will that also need to be scrapped? I am ok with a CO emitting Fargo lorry getting scrapped but certainly not fine with a pristine merc or a bmw ending up in an auto cemetery. The rule would affect one and all - car lovers, retired folks, middle class and even the high end car owners.
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Old 28th November 2014, 12:46   #44
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Default re: Proposal to ban 15 year old vehicles. EDIT: Concept paper released on page 18

Who will buy the 15 year old vehicles? Will it be sold outside Delhi? How much will the owner get?

What will happen next? Will the manufacturer build their cars with materials and quality that should last just 15 years, build in obsolescence?

What a waste!

What they have proposed is a band-aid solution. Is the Govt unable to to implement and enforce a proper pollution control program?
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Old 28th November 2014, 13:23   #45
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Default re: Proposal to ban 15 year old vehicles. EDIT: Concept paper released on page 18

Is it under the jurisdiction of NGT to pass such orders unilaterally?
Is the order binding on various authorities like the RTO, Delhi Police etc?
I don't know. Can anyone please throw light on the legality and jurisdiction of these orders?
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