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Old 1st December 2014, 14:36   #76
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Default re: Proposal to ban 15 year old vehicles. EDIT: Concept paper released on page 18

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Originally Posted by Lobogris View Post
I agree with you regarding the concern about the judiciary delving in to the realm of the executive branch.

On your first point, yes, people receive some resale value after 7 years for their cars. However, the resale value is already small after a car is more than 10 years old. No sensible person purchases a 10 years old car hoping that it would last another 10 years for him. We are not talking about rare or classic vehicles here. Right now we can see even relatively expensive cars like Honda City from 2000 being sold for around 1 lakh. Cheaper vehicles like the Santro are being sold now for 20K ony for a year 2000 model.. Hence the resale value after 15 years is paltry and I wont be shedding any tears in it is further reduced. 15 years is enough time for someone to make good use of their vehicle and to save money for a replacement. In any case those unable to purchase a new vehicle can buy a used one, say 5 years old, which would be a vast improvement on their 15 year old one. Loss of 20 to 50K resale value is a small price to pay for the health and wellness of the entire city.

Coming to your second point, the sooner we can remove old clunkers, the quicker we can move towards safer and better vehicles. Why allow a 15 year old vehicle to ply another 5-7 years?

On your third point, emission norms were much less stringent in the past and the cars from 1990s pollute much more than newer ones regardless of how well maintained they are. Even a brand new car from 1995 pollutes much more than a car from 2010.

As India gets more prosperous, it is time to remove old, unsafe, polluting vehicles at least from the major cities. That is part of progress and prosperity. India is not alone in mandating removal of old clunkers. Several other nations like China and France are doing so currently as well.
You are gunning for cars only. Why have you left out real culprits, the public transport, goods carriers and autorickshaws? If what you say about cars above is acceptable ( though I disagree ) , what should be time frame for commercial vehicles? I think 2 years is enough for all the commercial vehicles. These vehciles are virtually raped in 2 year time and log starship mileage. So, I will be happy to replace my well kept and under 1 lakh KM non-polluting car PROVIDED all the smoke-belching commercial vehicles are replaced, too, every 2 years. Otherwise, I end up being a fool. Will this Govt. body direct commercial vehicle owners to buy a new vehicle every 2 years. Shouldn't they also do this then?

Coming to cars, I have seen cars of retired officers which are of 90s (petrol hatchbacks like Zens / Wagon Rs/Satros) and though over 15 years old, they run as good as newer ones and being petrol, do not emit smoke. Should they scarp their cars and buy a new one? Now, being retired, their monthly running may not even be 300 kms. How much of pollution may these cars cause (even assuming them to be polluting, which they are not , as I said earlier)? Compared to a commercial vehicles which log 6,000 to 10,000 Kms a month. No, I don't buy this new crappy policy being mooted.
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Old 1st December 2014, 21:50   #77
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Default re: Proposal to ban 15 year old vehicles. EDIT: Concept paper released on page 18

Now I understand what Mark Tully the BBC corespondent meant when he said there is no reasoning in how the govt passes some orders in India.
Cars older then 15 years are more polluting and should be taken off the roads is one of the most stupid brainwaves these idiots who make these rules could have come up with.
I have a 1991 model car in the UK which I use in london. its fully road worthy and goes through its MOT ( ministry of transport ) check every year. It is road legal in every country but would not be in India.
California which has one of the most stringent pollution laws in the world also has cars which are older than 15 years on the road.
if these people could not figure out what to do then they could have copied what they do in Germany , if that was not good enough maybe what they do in France was good enough. Failing everything else the UK method could be copied. Once a car/motorcycle is three years old , it has to go through a MOT check year. if the car/motorcycle fails the test and it is uneconomical to repair/fix to the standard so it can pass the test the owner usually scraps it.

If this rule does not get changed that well maintained cars which go through a certain check to to ascertain there fitness are allowed to ply on the roads then I have to say the motoring clubs and communities like us are useless and just good for talk and not action.
If the administrators of this forum can take some action to challenge this stupid order then I am prepared to make a monetary contribution towards the cost of the action.
In fact all on this forum should be supporting some kind of action.

if this happened anywhere else in the west the motoring community would be questioning this decision.
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Old 1st December 2014, 23:36   #78
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Default re: Proposal to ban 15 year old vehicles. EDIT: Concept paper released on page 18

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Originally Posted by Sem80-88 View Post
Now I understand what Mark Tully the BBC corespondent meant when he said there is no reasoning in how the govt passes some orders in India.
Cars older then 15 years are more polluting and should be taken off the roads is one of the most stupid brainwaves these idiots who make these rules could have come up with.
I have a 1991 model car in the UK which I use in london. its fully road worthy and goes through its MOT ( ministry of transport ) check every year. It is road legal in every country but would not be in India.
California which has one of the most stringent pollution laws in the world also has cars which are older than 15 years on the road.
if these people could not figure out what to do then they could have copied what they do in Germany , if that was not good enough maybe what they do in France was good enough. Failing everything else the UK method could be copied. Once a car/motorcycle is three years old , it has to go through a MOT check year. if the car/motorcycle fails the test and it is uneconomical to repair/fix to the standard so it can pass the test the owner usually scraps it.

If this rule does not get changed that well maintained cars which go through a certain check to to ascertain there fitness are allowed to ply on the roads then I have to say the motoring clubs and communities like us are useless and just good for talk and not action.
If the administrators of this forum can take some action to challenge this stupid order then I am prepared to make a monetary contribution towards the cost of the action.
In fact all on this forum should be supporting some kind of action.

if this happened anywhere else in the west the motoring community would be questioning this decision.

i have to agree with you here. This community doesnt consist of school kids! it has grown, independent, aware men who are more then capable of fighting this joke of a judicial system!

If we dont do anything about this then teambhp will cease to mean anything to me.
This 'chalta hai' attitude can be forgiven in case of the ignorant masses, but not in case of an aware and educated community like team bhp.

I in my personal capacity as an automobile engineer, will be writing mails the supreme court(to carry out suo motto proceedings), to the NGT (to highlight the facts that say their ruling wont make an iota of difference to the pollution levels in delhi) and to CSE (to actually give them a realistic , scientific way out of the pollution situation, instead of suggestion retarded economist solutions like taxing diesel vehicles)

If this forum does man up and do something about this draconian ruling, ill support it in whatever way i can, monetary or otherwise.

If i were living in delhi, id be the first to file a PIL myself, but that is something that will now have to be done by any one of the lawyers of which there are so many on this forum.
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Old 2nd December 2014, 00:27   #79
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Default re: Proposal to ban 15 year old vehicles. EDIT: Concept paper released on page 18

Guys, this is already on hold.
I had put up picture of an article but it was removed due to copyright issues.
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Old 2nd December 2014, 08:29   #80
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Originally Posted by Sem80-88 View Post
if these people could not figure out what to do then they could have copied what they do in Germany.

Eh, well the actual German arrangement is quite complex with four of five different categories of cars. however, the most basic rule is that vehicles build before 1992 are not allowed in towns at all. irrespective what type of vehicle or what type of fuel.

There is an exception rule for classic cars built before 1978.

Jeroen
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Old 2nd December 2014, 11:34   #81
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Default re: Proposal to ban 15 year old vehicles. EDIT: Concept paper released on page 18

This is a very sad development and with far too many grey areas!!

There are so many factors that have been disregarded! especially for antique vehicles.
I have a Delhi registered 78 model RE, but now I have no clue how to keep it 'roadworthy' with respect to the papers.
Also have a 96 model cielo in mint condition since selling it would have yielded nothing when we upgraded. Its definitely in better condition than many of the 5 year old cars on the road!
I do hope they find a way to address the grey spaces that have emerged as a result of this ruling!
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Old 2nd December 2014, 17:05   #82
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Default re: Proposal to ban 15 year old vehicles. EDIT: Concept paper released on page 18

It's all very well for the NGT to decree, and for all of us to cry ourselves hoarse,over the fairness of the law. Old & well-maintained vs new & poorly maintained, pensioners with the one good decent albeit old ride having to perforce give up riding/driving, safety of new designs vs death traps in the old ad infinitum.
Some have suggested a carbon tax, others have suggested particulate filters and yet others have suggested a nexus between NGT and SIAM.

No doubt this ruling places a golden commercial opportunity to the SIAM members. And yet, nexus or not, this is also an opportunity for them to make a rare display of ethical corporate governance.

While most short term thinkers, would milk this opportunity for what it's worth, at the expense of the paying common man, a few business leaders could show that they are different from the rest.

They could for example, implement car exchange schemes, offering to take back 15 yo vehicles, responsibly recycle them , and offer cash-back/discounts on their product line for the trouble.
The government on its part, could waive road tax on vehicles bought under the exchange scheme - as a gesture for doing the right thing by the environment.

This would not be too far from what happens in more mature markets. Maybe , some people may see these as being too altruistic.

But would someone please wake up to the environmental disaster that would stare at us if a lackadaisical laissez-faire approach is taken towards the huge recycling problem? At best estimates, over 10 lakh vehicles in Delhi alone (Source TOI) would have been deemed fit for scrap as of today.
How many breakers would it take to process them? Who would have the scale to deal with the glut? And what would happen to the tons of waste that's left over, after parts and materials are culled?
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Old 3rd December 2014, 10:17   #83
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Default re: Proposal to ban 15 year old vehicles. EDIT: Concept paper released on page 18

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Originally Posted by pgsagar View Post
You are gunning for cars only. Why have you left out real culprits, the public transport, goods carriers and autorickshaws? If what you say about cars above is acceptable ( though I disagree ) , what should be time frame for commercial vehicles? I think 2 years is enough for all the commercial vehicles. These vehciles are virtually raped in 2 year time and log starship mileage. So, I will be happy to replace my well kept and under 1 lakh KM non-polluting car PROVIDED all the smoke-belching commercial vehicles are replaced, too, every 2 years. Otherwise, I end up being a fool. Will this Govt. body direct commercial vehicle owners to buy a new vehicle every 2 years. Shouldn't they also do this then?

Coming to cars, I have seen cars of retired officers which are of 90s (petrol hatchbacks like Zens / Wagon Rs/Satros) and though over 15 years old, they run as good as newer ones and being petrol, do not emit smoke. Should they scarp their cars and buy a new one? Now, being retired, their monthly running may not even be 300 kms. How much of pollution may these cars cause (even assuming them to be polluting, which they are not , as I said earlier)? Compared to a commercial vehicles which log 6,000 to 10,000 Kms a month. No, I don't buy this new crappy policy being mooted.
Delhi already mandates commercial vehicle replacement after 15 years. In addition, commercial vehicles likes autos, taxis and buses run on CNG in Delhi and cause little pollution. For determining whether a vehicles meets its pollution standards there is the PUC- an annual pollution check. However the issue is that older vehicles are FAR less efficient than newer ones and even when they are well maintained, they pollute much more. Take a look at old scooters that belch out more smoke than cars. Emission norms were much less stringent 15 years ago and the engines were designed accordingly. Sure there might be a few well maintained old vehicles but most are dilapidated, ill maintained, unsafe clunkers.

On your second point, regardless of how many kms a person drives, they have to follow the law. Can I drive without a license or insurance if I drive just a few kms every year? Can I argue that I should be exempted from spending on insurance and PUC as it makes little difference due to my low mileage? Later when airbags and ABS are mandatory, would you argue that those driving short distances have low risk and thus should be exempt? Would it be okay to use some home made contraption that doesn't meet the standards and drive it just because I use it once a week for a few kms? The answer to all of these questions is a clear no. Whether you drive 1 km or a million, your vehicle has to meet the standards in force. 15 years is way long to keep a vehicle. A Maruti 800 or a Santro are unsafe vehicles today. Those unable to afford a new vehicle can buy a slightly used one.
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Old 3rd December 2014, 11:02   #84
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Default re: Proposal to ban 15 year old vehicles. EDIT: Concept paper released on page 18

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Originally Posted by Lobogris View Post
However the issue is that older vehicles are FAR less efficient than newer ones and even when they are well maintained, they pollute much more. Take a look at old scooters that belch out more smoke than cars. Emission norms were much less stringent 15 years ago and the engines were designed accordingly. Sure there might be a few well maintained old vehicles but most are dilapidated, ill maintained, unsafe clunkers.
I disagree with this bit to some extent. The bi-annual pollution check is done to certify that the car/bike complies with the current pollution norms. A scooter which is belching smoke would not pass this test and deserves to be kept off the road.
I just have an issue with the broad brush approach being adopted.
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Old 3rd December 2014, 11:19   #85
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Default re: Proposal to ban 15 year old vehicles. EDIT: Concept paper released on page 18

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Originally Posted by Lobogris View Post
Delhi already mandates commercial vehicle replacement after 15 years. In addition, commercial vehicles likes autos, taxis and buses run on CNG in Delhi and cause little pollution. For determining whether a vehicles meets its pollution standards there is the PUC- an annual pollution check. However the issue is that older vehicles are FAR less efficient than newer ones and even when they are well maintained, they pollute much more. Take a look at old scooters that belch out more smoke than cars. Emission norms were much less stringent 15 years ago and the engines were designed accordingly. Sure there might be a few well maintained old vehicles but most are dilapidated, ill maintained, unsafe clunkers.

On your second point, regardless of how many kms a person drives, they have to follow the law. Can I drive without a license or insurance if I drive just a few kms every year? Can I argue that I should be exempted from spending on insurance and PUC as it makes little difference due to my low mileage? Later when airbags and ABS are mandatory, would you argue that those driving short distances have low risk and thus should be exempt? Would it be okay to use some home made contraption that doesn't meet the standards and drive it just because I use it once a week for a few kms? The answer to all of these questions is a clear no. Whether you drive 1 km or a million, your vehicle has to meet the standards in force. 15 years is way long to keep a vehicle. A Maruti 800 or a Santro are unsafe vehicles today. Those unable to afford a new vehicle can buy a slightly used one.
You have brought smoke-belching 2-stroke scooters into argument which I did not mention anywhere. Still, assuming what you said is right, why are you silent about commercial vehicles? I strongly feel that 15 years of private car usage = 2 years of commercial vehicles. I repeat again, in case you missed, 15 years of private car usage = 2 years of commercial vehicles usage. So, should commerical vehicles not be scrapped after 2 years? Please answer this.
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Old 3rd December 2014, 11:53   #86
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Default re: Proposal to ban 15 year old vehicles. EDIT: Concept paper released on page 18

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I disagree with this bit to some extent. The bi-annual pollution check is done to certify that the car/bike complies with the current pollution norms. A scooter which is belching smoke would not pass this test and deserves to be kept off the road.
I just have an issue with the broad brush approach being adopted.
Pollution norms and thresholds are based on the year of manufacture. An older vehicle is given more latitude than a newer one. There is no way a vehicle from 1990 would pass the current norms. That is the problem. A well tuned, even new vehicle from 1990 would pollute much more than a vehicle from 2012 as the emissions standards have tightened and newer technologies have been introduced.

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Originally Posted by pgsagar View Post
You have brought smoke-belching 2-stroke scooters into argument which I did not mention anywhere. Still, assuming what you said is right, why are you silent about commercial vehicles? I strongly feel that 15 years of private car usage = 2 years of commercial vehicles. I repeat again, in case you missed, 15 years of private car usage = 2 years of commercial vehicles usage. So, should commerical vehicles not be scrapped after 2 years? Please answer this.
This 2 years of commercial vehicles being equivalent to 15 years of private vehicle is not a standard. This is something you have just made up. As I stated before, commercial vehicles in Delhi run on CNG and thus pollute very little regardless of age. In addition, the degree of pollution is not dependent on the number of kms run by a vehicle but on the kind of emission norms it follows. Modern commercial vehicle pollute much less than ones from 1990 and in Delhi with CNG being mandatory, they don't pollute at all.
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Old 3rd December 2014, 21:56   #87
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Default re: Proposal to ban 15 year old vehicles. EDIT: Concept paper released on page 18

Well too many replies and suggestions have been given... Most pollution in Delhi is caused when there is a jam and one can experience it if they have to cross the road. I'd suggest if the jams are curbed there will be less pollution. Also, the generators run on diesel. Does the Delhi government check them also???? Ghaziabad and Faridabad pollute the most in the NCR Region and the direction of wind affects Delhi... but no check on them by the green tribunal.... why are we the culprits????
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Old 3rd December 2014, 22:00   #88
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Default re: Proposal to ban 15 year old vehicles. EDIT: Concept paper released on page 18

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Guys, this is already on hold.
I had put up picture of an article but it was removed due to copyright issues.
Hi, at least you can share the link. Thanks
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Old 3rd December 2014, 23:14   #89
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Default re: Proposal to ban 15 year old vehicles. EDIT: Concept paper released on page 18

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Hi, at least you can share the link. Thanks
Here it is.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/c...w/45302464.cms

There has been a lot of noise about this.
There will be some amendment to it.

Last edited by akshay4587 : 3rd December 2014 at 23:15.
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Old 4th December 2014, 08:40   #90
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Default re: Proposal to ban 15 year old vehicles. EDIT: Concept paper released on page 18

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Originally Posted by akshay4587 View Post
Here it is.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/c...w/45302464.cms

There has been a lot of noise about this.
There will be some amendment to it.
Thanks. From the article, it looks like that senior official owns a 15+ year old vehicle in good condition.

Going by the crux of the article, it can only be implemented once CMVR is modified. This would mean that it is likely to be a pan-India rule (or the 13 cities with BS-4 implemented currently) instead of just Delhi alone when that happens.

Last edited by zenren : 4th December 2014 at 08:42.
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