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Old 4th December 2014, 09:15   #91
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Thanks. So it looks as if I can keep thumping around on my nearly 40 year old bullet, which by the way has a valid PUC.

Jeroen
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Old 4th December 2014, 11:44   #92
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Default re: Proposal to ban 15 year old vehicles. EDIT: Concept paper released on page 18

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lobogris View Post
This 2 years of commercial vehicles being equivalent to 15 years of private vehicle is not a standard. This is something you have just made up.
Perhaps he just made it up.
Or perhaps there is a rationale behind it.

How many privately owned city driven vehicles you know which have crossed 2 lakh km mark (in their 'life' of 15 years)?
I can tell you almost each and every commercially used vehicle crosses 2 lakh km within 2-3 years.
So if we looks at engine wear and tear causing pollution, pgsagar may be right.

However, your line of reasoning is also correct.
Vehicle made in 90s were made according to laxer pollution specs. Therefore they will pollute more than vehicles being made today.
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Old 4th December 2014, 12:00   #93
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Default re: Proposal to ban 15 year old vehicles. EDIT: Concept paper released on page 18

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Originally Posted by Lobogris View Post

This 2 years of commercial vehicles being equivalent to 15 years of private vehicle is not a standard. This is something you have just made up. .
Nope. Nothing made up here.
You first have to understand what is a commercial vehicle.
A commercial vehicle is a vehicle designed to carry goods.
Each vehicle comes with a weight rating.
For example, lets say you are a trucker you buys a truck which can carry 20 tonnes as per manufacturer rating.
However, the manufacturer has over-engineered the truck so it can carry 30 without issue.
There also exist additional aftermarket fitments which mean you can carry 40 tonnes.
So lets say you are carrying cargo at 5rs/kg from Delhi to Jaipur

40 tonnes as opposed to 20 tonnes means you will carry 20000*5 = 1 lakh extra payout.
Lets say your FE is 4kmpl for the 300km trip with 20 tonnes and 2kmpl with 40 tonnes

So you buy 150 liters extra fuel which is 9000rs only.
That is still a cool 90,000 extra profit for a run.

Now what you are doing illegal, if you are caught you have to pay 5000 as bribe.
So your profit is down to 85000

This is the reason trucks are overloaded.
So when you run this truck for 2 years doing 300kms a day (10,000kms a month), in 2 years you have overloaded the vehicle drastically and continuously pushed the engine.

Things start breaking. To save on costs you put in inferior components.
Eg you put in a component for 50,000rs instead of 150,000rs
You know fitness certificate costs just 20,000 bribe. So you again save 80000

Due to corruption in the entire ecosystem, you are now running a 2 year old unfit truck. This does not meet any emission norms, damages the roads and pollutes more than the honest guy who is trying to do everything right.

After two years you are rich, and the honest trucker decides to do something else or join you.

This is why 2 year old vehicles pollute so much, because the financial benefits of polluting are very good.

This is the crux of the problem. Unless the govt (the executive supposed to enforce laws is govt) stops "REWARDING" polluting vehicles, this problem will not go away.

you can ban 10 year old vehicle, 5 year old vehicles or whatever, the pollution will always increase.
This is because there is a reward for driving an ill maintained vehicle.

But private owners do not get rewarded if their vehicle is polluting. The profit margin from not confirming to norms is miniscule. Infact, maintaining their vehicle well as an incentive in the form of rewarding them with increased life.

When you ban vehicles of a certain age, you take away that motivation and reward. You punish people who have maintained their vehicles, at the same time rewarding those who do not.

Is this what we want to do?
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Old 4th December 2014, 16:51   #94
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Default re: Proposal to ban 15 year old vehicles. EDIT: Concept paper released on page 18

Thanks a ton Alpha1 and TSK 1979 for stickin' up for me. Since, the reply posts were geting argumentative, I decided to quit. Doing 2 lakh KMs in 2 years for commercial vehicles is rather a norm than exception. Then, as mentioned by TSK, overloading takes additional toll on veh.
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Old 4th December 2014, 21:49   #95
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Default re: Proposal to ban 15 year old vehicles. EDIT: Concept paper released on page 18

Quite Logical and definitely a valid point. I often come across some overloaded trucks who gasp for air when on a flyover. Unfortunately, they ply on the city roads and leave behind bad roads and P0LUTION. Bribery needs to be curbed and nothing else. All of us are law abiding citizens but the rulers turn a blind eye towards us and favor the hoodlums.
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Old 4th December 2014, 22:05   #96
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Default re: Proposal to ban 15 year old vehicles. EDIT: Concept paper released on page 18

I think there should be one parameter to decide if a car is road-worthy. In our case, it is the PUC (with proper and correct implementation, not eyewash as it is now).

It makes no sense to have several other parameters like the age of the vehicle, its fuel type, etc.

It is apparent that the manufacturers have a large hand to play here, and some officials are towing their line, while others, thankfully, are objecting to this decree.

Any new law needs due consideration to all its impacts and implications. In this case, what is abundantly clear is that there has been no due thought process by the NGT on:
  1. life cycle analysis on the benefit to the environment, with respect to, say new cars being produced to replace old ones
  2. what about the future of existing vehicles,
  3. their owners,
  4. their disposal,
  5. impact on the livelihood of the poor people, of pensioners,
  6. the impact on maintenance of vehicles that are close to their legitimate life on the road
  7. the impact on the local market of such freshly illegitimate car floods
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Old 8th December 2014, 23:04   #97
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Default re: Proposal to ban 15 year old vehicles. EDIT: Concept paper released on page 18

I think it's a totally unfair move to 'ban' vehicles which are 15 years or older.

The process should be made straight forward and robust by having a stringent and thorough test done at the Registration office when such vehicles come for renewing their fitness certificate. If anything is found unfit or deemed harmful for the environment, refuse the certificate. Period.

However, if the vehicle is compliant then it should be allowed to run for another 2 years after which the vehicle must return every 1/2 years to get a fitness certificate.

What do I do with my 1998 OHC? I wasn't going to sell it before, how can I sell it now? I am angry.
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Old 9th December 2014, 12:41   #98
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Default re: Proposal to ban 15 year old vehicles. EDIT: Concept paper released on page 18

Quote:
Originally Posted by ankitahuja View Post
What do I do with my 1998 OHC? I wasn't going to sell it before, how can I sell it now? I am angry.
I don't understand why you are asking this. I think current situation is not clear. If the vehicle needs to be scrapped, then you will get almost nothing.
There will be no buyers for 15+ year vehicle if it becomes illegal to run those.

I have a 15+ year old Zen which was restored completely just 2 months back.
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Old 9th December 2014, 15:03   #99
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Default re: Proposal to ban 15 year old vehicles. EDIT: Concept paper released on page 18

Quote:
Originally Posted by S_U_N View Post
I don't understand why you are asking this. I think current situation is not clear. If the vehicle needs to be scrapped, then you will get almost nothing.
There will be no buyers for 15+ year vehicle if it becomes illegal to run those.

I have a 15+ year old Zen which was restored completely just 2 months back.
From what I understood, the proposed ban is only for Delhi as of now, and if the reason is pollution, it is likely that the ban might not extend beyond 13 tier-1 cities. Even now, BS-4 is not mandatory outside the Tier-1 cities.

If the ban is only for the heavily polluted metros and not extended to tier-2/3 cities, these vehicles can still be sold to other towns.
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Old 10th December 2014, 01:37   #100
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Default re: Proposal to ban 15 year old vehicles. EDIT: Concept paper released on page 18

Rightly said by zenren. The options are to either scrap (get almost nothing) the vehicle or sell to tier 2/3 cities (very bad resale). I'm upset about the fact that how does one have the heart [we are petrol heads remember] to let go of our beloveds?
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Old 15th December 2014, 21:54   #101
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Default re: Proposal to ban 15 year old vehicles. EDIT: Concept paper released on page 18

The following is the link to an article in ET stating the observation that only 2% of the vehicles in Delhi comprise of vehicles older than 15 years. Though a 4 year old finding, but it clearly states what is the actual situation and the cause of so much pollution.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...w/45502515.cms

Last edited by mustangboss302 : 15th December 2014 at 21:55. Reason: one word mistake
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Old 16th December 2014, 12:16   #102
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Default re: Proposal to ban 15 year old vehicles. EDIT: Concept paper released on page 18

Well, I believe instead of making such Rules, The NGT should have directed the government to speed up the process of the Delhi ORR, Goods vehicles not destined for Delhi can simply take this road and move on. This is a major reason for the traffic jams that occur after 9PM every day.
Also, it should be mandatory for every owner be it commercial or private to get the Road Worthiness test done every year once the vehicle goes over 10 years. This test should be computerised and held in a controlled environment to make sure that the true condition comes out. If the vehicle fails that test, the owner should be served a notice to present it again for inspection after a month and if even then it's not passing then it should be sent to the scrapyard.
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Old 16th December 2014, 12:20   #103
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Default re: Proposal to ban 15 year old vehicles. EDIT: Concept paper released on page 18

Quote:
Of the total travel time of vehicles, idling time for cars was found to be 24%, three-wheelers 18%, buses 37% and for two-wheelers it was 20%. The team defines idling to be the time spent by the vehicle running at less than 4 kmph speed
This is pathetic, but I guess accepted (and enjoyed) as a way of life in the metros.
Quote:
If one considers more than a million cars running at similar speed, they may be wasting about 2.5 lakh litres of fuel every day while idling at traffic snarls. The emissions from such long idling time are obviously massive
This is rather appalling, a huge loss to the economy.
Wonder why govt is not doing anything about this.
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Old 16th December 2014, 12:32   #104
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Default re: Proposal to ban 15 year old vehicles. EDIT: Concept paper released on page 18

I'm still a little confused on what this Green Tribunal ban means in terms of how, what when is or will it become effective. I've read different stories as to whether this ban is no in place, or not yet. Or it is in place but it is simply not being enforced etc.

Anybody that can shed any light on the actual legal status of this ban, its implementation, appeal procedures etc.

Thanks

Jeroen
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Old 16th December 2014, 13:48   #105
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Default re: Proposal to ban 15 year old vehicles. EDIT: Concept paper released on page 18

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
. Anybody that can shed any light on the actual legal status of this ban, its implementation, appeal procedures etc.
1. The legal status of the ban is that the RTO's in Delhi have supposedly been issued a circular, prohibiting them from renewing the registration of vehicles older than 15 years.
2. As for the implementation, the less said about it the better. The pre-ban implementation is well captured here. I however suspect the level of implementation. I'm sure you've come across the recent stings on RTO's where commercial certificates etc. were "procured" for fees.
3. The appeal procedure is very simple. There is an appeal possible before the Supreme Court and one does not need to be a party in the proceedings to file the appeal. Though you might have to explain your standing (reason for filing the appeal).

My grouse against the order is simple. Some car owners are meticulous about their 4/2 wheelers and maintain them in immaculate conditions. While yet others, might be able to maintain their ride in a reasonable condition, and still be genuinely unable to afford a new vehicle. This order is extremely arbitrary as far as these two categories of persons are concerned.
If there is a genuine passion to clean up the air in Delhi, lets start by catching those obnoxious monsters [read grossly overloaded-rust bucket trucks that barely make the flyover gradients] that clog up Mathura Road/Ring Road or the Gurgaon Road at night belching sweet pure mountain air. Second, implement the PUC Rules/Fitness Rules across the board in a uniform manner. Three improve the public transport, but that is asking to utopia!!
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