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Old 2nd December 2014, 13:35   #16
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Default Re: Would ABS or Airbags have helped? Data from Hundreds of Indian accidents analysed

Improving Road safety in India is like addressing a complete eco-system. The 3 E's that need immediate overhaul is Education, Engineering & Enforcement. 3-point Seatbelts are probably the single-most effective safety innovation prior to the current active safety features (adaptive cruise control, lane departure warning, blind spot detection, brake assist, pre-safe etc.) that are slowly creeping into high end cars. Belt usage in US, Europe and Australia is well over 95%, We have to educate our drivers about proper belt usage and the police have to enforce belt usage so that we slowly also creep up to above 90% belt usage. Systematically we have to introduce crash test conditions so that the automotive structures also improve over time for the structure and restraints to work effectively together.
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Old 2nd December 2014, 14:29   #17
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Default Re: Would ABS or Airbags have helped? Data from Hundreds of Indian accidents analysed

ABS + Airbags:
It's time all manufacturers made it standard across all cars/variants (Yes, you too Mr. Bhargava).

Two-wheelers:
From my personal experience, the accidents under this category have many causes. A few of them
  1. Rash driving:
    Nothing new! We have been there done that! Even a sane car driver becomes something else when on a 2-wheeler (not generalizing though)
  2. Skidding:
    Slippery roads, sudden braking, losing control while braking, cornering on sharp curves
  3. Visibility:
    Crashing into a pot-hole that you didn't notice, jumping over a speed-breaker that was camouflaged. The poorly-lit headlamps (in scooters like Activa) as well as poorly lit streets/roads (even in cities like Bangalore) do not help either
  4. Due to other vehicles:
    Slight nudge from a car, van or bus at even normal speeds can send the riders of the 2-wheelers to heaven (or hell)

Pedestrians:
  1. Lack of footpaths
  2. Reluctance to walk on footpaths even if one available
  3. Crossing the roads mindlessly
  4. Lack of proper pedestrian crossing points
  5. Visibility

Solution:
  1. Safety equipment: Make these mandatory- ABS, Airbags, helmets, seat-belts etc.
  2. Self-discipline: Drive responsibly (we all know, yet something we can't control always)
  3. Proper infrastructure: Good pothole-free roads, right kind of speed-breakers with proper markings, encroachment-free footpaths. Fine even the pedestrian who refuses to walk on the footpaths or crosses when the signal is Green
  4. Strict enforcement of rules
  5. Educating
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Old 2nd December 2014, 14:59   #18
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Default Re: Would ABS or Airbags have helped? Data from Hundreds of Indian accidents analysed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Car-go-man View Post
Pedestrians:
  1. Reluctance to walk on footpaths even if one available
  2. Crossing the roads mindlessly
Second that.
I can't understand why pedestrians want to cross road through the traffic even when there is a Foot-over or subway.
These people should be fined immediately.

The cops should also consider the car walah's point of view and understand that the injured pedestrian could have been at fault.
For now there is only one rule: The bigger vehicle guy is responsible.
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Old 2nd December 2014, 15:37   #19
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Default Re: Would ABS or Airbags have helped? Data from Hundreds of Indian accidents analysed

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinit.merchant View Post
I would disagree on this front. I have been to the RTO here for a couple of times and have observed that they do no issue the licences to those who cannot pass the driving test.
I have seen the agents pleading to the officers but they stand their ground. For them, it is simple. If the applicant cannot clear the driving test (eg driving the 8 for the 2 wheeler licences)he/she does not get the licence.

Hi vinit, trust you to be having too much of faith in one of our most corrupt department. Or most probably, you would have faced an one-off situation/officer who would be honest(or may be demanding more bribe from agents). You can get a Driving licence even if you are blind out here in Delhi. Let alone getting a licence, you can get your car registered at any of the delhi address by providing the address proof of anyone. I know someone who stays in Gaziabad and has a car registered at my old address in delhi and has a delhi registration number. Money rocks

Sorry to have digressed from the topic but let us be very honest with ourselves. We all know that we have broken rules sometime or the other in our lives and have even gone upto the extent of bribing the officials. Is that correct. I hope all of us have replied in negative. Same thing goes for accidents also. Any tom dick and harry can get a DL and start driving around. Without even 10% of driving ettiquetes, he is sure to cause a ruckus on the road. In that scenario, since we cannot change the world, it is best to protect and cover ourselves with what-so-ever means available. Be it ABS, Airbags, structurally safe cars well built cars or whatever.

Last edited by GTO : 2nd December 2014 at 16:28. Reason: No SMS language on Team-BHP please
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Old 2nd December 2014, 16:44   #20
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Default Re: Would ABS or Airbags have helped? Data from Hundreds of Indian accidents analysed

Passengers in cars with seat belts often do not wear them, and are regularly pulled up by the police. The irony is that such fines are almost always imposed on crowded city roads where seat belts can be quite redundant. I mean how likely are you to suffer a grievous injury when you are driving at 40 kmph! In highways and expressways, where speeds are often in triple digits, a fastened seat belt can truly make a difference in case of frontal collisions. However, I have never seen a policeman pull up a car on a highway. While seat belts must be worn at all times, how can we ensure they are used when they matter most? I also had a related question on this topic. Is it true that airbags will not deploy if you are not wearing a seat belt?
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Old 2nd December 2014, 16:54   #21
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Default Re: Would ABS or Airbags have helped? Data from Hundreds of Indian accidents analysed

Quote:
Originally Posted by rohanjf View Post
Bosch manufactures ABS and other safety systems. Their study is one sided. They are only trying to promote their products. Most of the accidents occurred because of poor infrastructure and bad drivers. No safety systems could have prevented them.


I think I am now qualified to join the board of directors of at least some of the major Indian car manufacturers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by utsav1303 View Post
I would differ IMO of BHPians that study is one sided to promote sales of Bosch equipments.

IMO, at least use of ABS in vehicles must be promoted.
Agree with you Utsav but I think the post by rohanjf is a sarcastic statement that can be expected from likes of Maruti MD or others who are reluctant to implement the safety features.
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Old 2nd December 2014, 17:38   #22
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Default Re: Would ABS or Airbags have helped? Data from Hundreds of Indian accidents analysed

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaheshY1 View Post
Second that.
I can't understand why pedestrians want to cross road through the traffic even when there is a Foot-over or subway.
These people should be fined immediately.

The cops should also consider the car walah's point of view and understand that the injured pedestrian could have been at fault.
For now there is only one rule: The bigger vehicle guy is responsible.
Please dont expect people (especially older) to climb up and down. Of course, should cross only at zebra crossing. Other than that, car people are having the luxury of going in comfort. Might as well stop well before zebra crossing during red signal. For a free flow of traffic, the signals should be timed well for an unhindered ride-yes this is possible.

Problem is the bribing..
1. If a pedestrian is injured even if he is at fault, the car wala is thrashed.
2. If a pedestrian is injured even car wala he is at fault, the case is suppressed. (Salman khan drunk driving case.)

Last edited by subscrive : 2nd December 2014 at 17:42.
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Old 2nd December 2014, 18:46   #23
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Default Re: Would ABS or Airbags have helped? Data from Hundreds of Indian accidents analysed

Quote:
Originally Posted by sourabhzen View Post
Agree with you Utsav but I think the post by rohanjf is a sarcastic statement that can be expected from likes of Maruti MD or others who are reluctant to implement the safety features.
Quite correct! And it would not take much investments for any automotive manufacturers to introduce safety features in Indian vehicle, barring vehicles like Omni, as Export variants of vehicles are already being sold with such safety systems installed in it.
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Old 2nd December 2014, 19:18   #24
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Default Re: Would ABS or Airbags have helped? Data from Hundreds of Indian accidents analysed

The study gave us a lot of insights. And, there are a lot of experiences shared here that are subjective and they support the use of safety systems as well.

I strongly feel that the safety systems could prevent a lot of fatalities, if not all of them. I have personally experienced the benefit of an ABS. A fellow BHPian arun josie has also shared one of his experience of benefiting from an ABS and Airbag -

Last edited by D C : 2nd December 2014 at 19:22. Reason: Correction
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Old 2nd December 2014, 19:54   #25
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Default Re: Would ABS or Airbags have helped? Data from Hundreds of Indian accidents analysed

Quote:
Originally Posted by hillsnrains View Post
- After 2011 fatalities rate of increase has came down, better infrastructure (?) is the reason for this?
As optimistic as that sounds, I have a feeling the reality is that it actually has something to do with how/where the data was being collected or collated. Would be keen to hear from anyone who knows...

Quote:
Originally Posted by driverace View Post
I am trying to understand - driving at what range of speeds, I can expect ABS+Airbags to be of any help!
I'm sure there's several other studies that have covered this in detail. In this case, they seem to have been focusing on the India-specific data-collection, and not measuring the general effectiveness of safety systems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by driverace View Post
(*I do understand, that the speed will be relative, i.e. in case of head-on, it would be addition of two speeds.)
Actually this is somewhat of a common misconception. Two cars colliding at 50 km/h does not make the collision speed 100 km/h or anywhere near that. It actually remains 50 km/h (though it is like hitting a completely rigid object - eg. a concrete wall - rather than rear ending a stationary car).

Check this out for the detailed explanation:


Quote:
Originally Posted by MaheshY1 View Post
I've also pasted that Tata AIG sticker on my rear windshield that says:
'Wear your seat belts. You've paid for it.'
That's a great one - and something that truly taps into the paisa-vasool (make every rupee count) mentality of most Indians.

cya
R

Last edited by Rehaan : 2nd December 2014 at 19:56.
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Old 2nd December 2014, 19:59   #26
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Default Re: Would ABS or Airbags have helped? Data from Hundreds of Indian accidents analysed

I came across this video on effects of crash on human body. It is quite scary and underlines why car makers should be regulated for installing safety features.

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Old 2nd December 2014, 20:30   #27
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Default Re: Would ABS or Airbags have helped? Data from Hundreds of Indian accidents analysed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rehaan View Post
...
Actually this is somewhat of a common misconception. Two cars colliding at 50 km/h does not make the collision speed 100 km/h or anywhere near that. It actually remains 50 km/h (though it is like hitting a completely rigid object - eg. a concrete wall - rather than rear ending a stationary car).

Check this out for the detailed explanation: /video/
..
cya
R
I'm glad, that you helped me - clear my funda -with this info & reference video!
Although my mind still tries to believe the "relative speed" thing.. this is clear evidence!

Thank you again.

Excuse this question:

If we consider a crash with Car A @ 50 kmph & Car B @ 60 kmph,
then would the Car A experience any more "g" than what it would - Vs - crashing into a wall OR another Car @ 50kmph.

Ace.

Last edited by driverace : 2nd December 2014 at 20:36.
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Old 2nd December 2014, 22:03   #28
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Default Re: Would ABS or Airbags have helped? Data from Hundreds of Indian accidents analysed

As a surgeon involved in trauma care on a daily basis, I definitely think that accidents may or may not be prevented with ABS, EBD and the works. However survivability of an accident is a totally different ball game. The probability that you survive an impact depends on the severity of your primary injuries at the time of impact. Considering this fact I truly think that Airbags and seat belts are crucial. They may not prevent accidents, but definitely increase the probability of survival, and also decrease the severity of trauma and the post traumatic disability.
Also in a country in which I see on a daily basis needless lives lost, in the most productive years of their lives, any safety feature is most welcome.
The most important aspect that people and administrators alike do not realize is the total lack of paramedical emergency support at the site of accident. Ambulances are ill equipped, staff poorly trained, and reach the accident site very late, by the time the golden hour is lost. They take the victims, often transported as cattle, to a government hospital or a primary care center, where there is no doctor on duty or even if he is present has no clue or has no inclination to treat these victims as it is just an additional burden on him. The guy is only interested in "transferring to a higher center" again losing precious time. I really think somebody should study the time taken from the time of accident to the time the unfortunate victim reaches a proper medical center. I for one can foresee shocking and shameful results.
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Old 3rd December 2014, 02:55   #29
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Default Re: Would ABS or Airbags have helped? Data from Hundreds of Indian accidents analysed

It's a shame Airbags and ABS are still considered as Optional / luxury extras. IMHO, Government should mandate installation of ABS and airbags across all cars and models.
Definitely a price worth paying.

Last edited by Maverick_x1 : 3rd December 2014 at 03:06. Reason: Formatting
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Old 3rd December 2014, 08:52   #30
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Default Re: Would ABS or Airbags have helped? Data from Hundreds of Indian accidents analysed

Thank you Rehaan for sharing this. Appreciate it!

My two rupees!

Somehow I fail to understand perspectives of few gentlemen. Hence I thought, let me lay down mine.

1) Bosch is not here to provide free lunches, hence it is perfectly okay for them to promote something which "saves lives". I am fine with "you scratch my back, I will scratch yours" proposition.

2) The impact of the price of entry level vehicle going up is in no match to the price a family pays in losing their kin. Families will resort to two wheeler, bicycles (probably), or as many other have stated earlier, most middle class families take bank loans to get their first 4 wheeler, how much extra in their EMI would they end up paying?

3) We cannot control street idiots or their behaviors, so lets stop using street idiot's behaviors as an indirect means to state how ABS et all is ineffective. As the famous saying goes, "The locus of concern should lie within the locus of control". You control what you can control, leave the rest to suggestions/advises or enforcement agencies to act on.

4) Rural areas have sand and gravel streets which prolongs the effectiveness of ABS. Yes! BUT why is it that we choose to ignore the fact that people in rural place hit the highway more often?

5) Maintenance of vehicles is of course going to be tad bit more complex with ABS + airbags around. Yes. Especially when there are multiple reports of the airbags going off for no good reason. And yes the price of restoring that feature would cost a significant amount. But do you think it can be used as a reason not to bring in these safety features when we know that at some corner of India, someone did escape a bad crash?
It got to start somewhere, right? How long are we going to keep lingering?

6) Of course, we need better infrastructure, better roads, better driving habits, better RTO..you name it. I am surprised why is this point coming up in safety features discussion? IMHO it is completely different topic altogether.
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