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Old 30th March 2017, 09:00   #631
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Default Re: Tata Tiago-based compact sedan. EDIT: Tigor launched at Rs 4.7 lakhs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Debajyoti View Post
"BMW i8 has 3 pot engine, while Dzire/Aspire have brilliant 4 cylinder engines. Utterly disappointed, BMW should have been more aggressive with the pricing of the i8, I can see it will be a big failure"........But expecting a car that looks like Tigor, has engine of Dzire or Aspire, interior quality of Xcent at the price of Tiago is being too unrealistic.
Very well said, You have spelled out the reality. Appreciate that.

The thing is, we weren't expecting Tigor to have all USPs of segment at the price of Tiago. I have said this many times in this thread, and will say it again. The Tigor & Tiago are much better cars. They have certainly progressed forward to becoming Segment Best Cars in thier Respective Segments. They look good, they ride well, they are spacious, they are efficient. They lack a bit in performance which is OK for an day to day City commuting.

This debate of Tigor not having a Proper 4 cylinder engine came into question when Tata announced the prices yesterday. Make no mistake, the XE & XT Variants are priced Brilliantly. But the XZ & XZ(O) are dangerously close to Aspire Trend & Titanium.

If Tata had priced these top spec grades as good as base & Mid variants, the 3 cylinder engine would have been ok. So, for additional money (₹20k & ₹13k), the Aspire Diesel certainly makes case for itself. This is just for someone looking at Tigor XZ & XZ(O) variants. If he is looking at XE & XT, it's a no brainier, Tigor is much better option due to huge price difference.

I am in same dilemma of finalizing a car for my friend, I am spoilt by Tigor's All roundness & Aspire's Diesel Heart & Ford's Reliability. Yes Tata isn't reliable for me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by discoverwild View Post
The lacklustre performance argument has been done to death. Real world performance matters. A Tier II city dweller like me does an average speed of 30 kmph day after day. My 30 km daily drive rarely allows me the luxury of moving on to the 4th gear. The Tiago twins will hardly feel out of place here.

Only feel that Tata should have been more proactive with safety features, ensuring ABS and airbags were standard on all variants. They missed the plot here.
Yes, one doesn't require performance in City limits. Only drivability & Efficiency matters. But, on Highways, the Tiago isn't effortless to drive. I have taken my Tiago on Highway Drive once (40 kms). Despite the additional torque on Diesel, it does take time to build momentum. And the NVH levels are high, same will be the case with Tigor. Why performance matters is that not everyone can afford multiple cars.

If Tata had priced Tigor XZ & XZ(O) cheaper by around 25-30k or offered 1.3 Multijet in those variants at least, I wouldn't have complained.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RavenAvi View Post
In fact, it's a point in the Tiago/Tigor's favour that their petrol engines put out almost equal power/torque figures as those cars of a segment above.
+1
Yes, 1.2 Petrol with 85ps & 115Nm of torque is on par with Swift/Dzire & others. In fact the Petrol will be the major contributor just like Tiago. I don't have any complaints regarding Petrol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RavenAvi View Post
With respect to diesels however, yes, the Tigor's diesel is quite underpowered and should have been priced accordingly. A 90,000-rupee premium is unjustified, specially when the Tiago's diesels are priced at a difference of around 70,000-80,000 rupees over their petrol counterparts.
Ah..there you go. This is what I have been saying/trying to say. The Diesel is overpriced for what it offers (Engine Part). Someone looking at XZ variants would be looking at Aspire Diesel just for that better engine alone. If Tata doesn't see much bookings for Diesel, they may replace this 1.0 D with 1.3 in future. This 1.0 Diesel is acceptable on Tiago but not Tigor especially given the pricing factor.


Quote:
Originally Posted by anand.shankar View Post
The Tigor seems decently priced for what it offers, engine and safety features could have been better. But that doesn't take away the fact that its the cheapest pseudo-sedan available in the country.
XT with Airbags would have been better. But if one wants Airbags, they have to get XZ. Will you buy Tigor D (XZ O) over Aspire D (Titanium) for difference of 13k ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyas337 View Post
Prior to price announcement, had finalized for Tigor petrol (top end version). Now the pricing has put me in dilemma (being close to Aspire and Zest -> which are a segment higher and have been in the market for a while now).


Suggestions / Recommendations please?

P.S: Tigor Petrol XT (@ 6.55 lakhs on road at Hyderabad), would have been a good pick -> had it come with 2 Air Bags (already comes with ABS + EBD)
XT with Airbags would have been a good choice considering the price it has been launched at (5.41 L - Petrol, 6.31 L - Diesel).

XZ P at 5.90 is also a good option for addition of Airbags & other features.

Quote:
Originally Posted by guptad42 View Post
Tigor should have airbags in the base version, and an AMT in the top two at roughly the same price.
TATA could have then seen the car become a huge sales success, and maybe raised prices a little after the festival season.

As they stand now, these prices are a bit high for the car on offer..
Airbags might become standard soon due to Safety Regulations. AMT also isn't far from launching.

XE & XT are well priced, but XZ variants are a bit high.

Also, what stopped Tata from offering Option Packs on XE & XT Trims like they have on Tiago ? If they didn't want to give option packs, they should have made Airbags as standard at launch itself.
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Old 30th March 2017, 10:18   #632
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Default Re: Tata Tiago-based compact sedan. EDIT: Tigor launched at Rs 4.7 lakhs

While the pricing looks good with respect to its competition. But if you compare it with the launch prices of the Tata Zest, one tends to wonder why has Tata priced the Tigor way higher than the Zest at launch.

It's not like the Zest is lesser in any way. It is bigger and better in every way be it power, quality, size and features. But if Tata was able to launch that car for so less, what was the problem with the Tigor. The Tigor according to me is a car that is meant for people who want an entry level sub 4m sedan instead of a top of the line B1 segment hatchback.

Also it's not like the manufacturing costs, material costs and labour costs have increased exponentially. Then what was Tata thinking?

But still I do think Tigor is priced in that sweet spot where half of us think it is overpriced by 20-25k and the other half think it is ok by today's standards.

Attached below is the Launch price comparison between the Tigor and the Zest. This is just to analyse and ponder over but not for the "look Tata is being overconfident and greedy", posts.

We need to keep in mind that the Zest was launched way back in September 2014. I have left out the diesel XMA Zest for obivious reasons. Source

Tata Tiago-based compact sedan. EDIT: Tigor launched at Rs 4.7 lakhs-screenshot_20170330100454469.jpeg

Last edited by Shanksta : 30th March 2017 at 10:25.
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Old 30th March 2017, 10:29   #633
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Default Re: Tata Tiago-based compact sedan. EDIT: Tigor launched at Rs 4.7 lakhs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shanksta View Post
Also it's not like the manufacturing costs, material costs and labour costs have increased exponentially. Then what was Tata thinking?
Probably they wanted to pricing gap to be significant enough so that the Tiago is not affected by the Tigor. Bolt was announced DOA immediately after the announcement of prices which were rather close to that of the Zest.

The way I see it, TATA will have two average sellers in their portfolio now. Sad, as Tigor had way more potential in our market as compared to the Tiago.
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Old 30th March 2017, 10:30   #634
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Default Re: Tata Tiago-based compact sedan. EDIT: Tigor launched at Rs 4.7 lakhs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shanksta View Post
We need to keep in mind that the Zest was launched way back in September 2014.
If you compare current price of Tigor and Zest there is a difference of 50-60K across all variants. With the beginning of new financial year another price revision is around the corner from all manufacturers.

Big concern for me is non availability of dual airbags in XT variant.
Attached Thumbnails
Tata Tiago-based compact sedan. EDIT: Tigor launched at Rs 4.7 lakhs-tigor.jpg  

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Old 30th March 2017, 10:48   #635
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Default Re: Tata Tiago-based compact sedan. EDIT: Tigor launched at Rs 4.7 lakhs

Quote:
Originally Posted by prasathlr View Post
For someone who hasn't had access to a car in their whole lifetime, Tiago looks really upmarket.
Exactly. Tiago has a sense of premium feeling even though the car is designed to budget. We have Zest in family for over 2 years and yet sitting in Tiago put a pleasant smile on my face! I am sure Tigor will only add to that feeling with touchscreen, rear camera and all.

Quote:
I see people talking about refinement, power, premium interiors and other things, which are not the most important things for a first-time car buyer. For a middle-class buyer, the car needs to offer good looks, mileage, and wow-factor among his/her peers and in that respect, Tigor absolutely ticks all the boxes.
Quote:
So from my perspective, I would buy it with the 3-Cyliner engine, I don't find there is any lack of performance on the highways, neither am I worried about the NVH. For me, it is satisfactory.
We test-drove S-cross 1.6 and then Tiago back to back. Everything apart, my fiance was impressed by the better audio quality of Tiago and proclaimed Tiago to be better. Turn up the music, switch on the AC and no one notices refinement!
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Old 30th March 2017, 10:53   #636
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Default Re: Tata Tiago-based compact sedan. EDIT: Tigor launched at Rs 4.7 lakhs

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
Probably they wanted to pricing gap to be significant enough so that the Tiago is not affected by the Tigor. Bolt was announced DOA immediately after the announcement of prices which were rather close to that of the Zest.
Probably. They had to push up the price a bit further thanks to the price hikes on Tiago recently.

Quote:
The way I see it, TATA will have two average sellers in their portfolio now. Sad, as Tigor had way more potential in our market as compared to the Tiago.
I believe this is way too early to conclude it this way. They may be ok with slightly lower volumes with higher margins. Ultimately, what the shareholders want is the value on their holding and not exactly how many vehicle sold per say. Let us wait and watch how this goes.
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Old 30th March 2017, 11:32   #637
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Default Re: Tata Tiago-based compact sedan. EDIT: Tigor launched at Rs 4.7 lakhs

One surprising thing about the Tigor is that it has three different wheel/tyre sizes (on the petrol) for the XE, XT & XZ variants {with XZ(O) getting the same wheel & tyre combo as the XZ}:

Tata Tiago-based compact sedan. EDIT: Tigor launched at Rs 4.7 lakhs-20170330-08.05.45.png

Overall diameter:

XE (155/80 R13) - 578.2 mm

XT (175/65 R14) - 583.1 mm

XZ (175/60 R15) - 591.0 mm

This should theoretically lead to the XT having an additional 2.45 mm of GC over the XE, and the XZ variants having an additional 6.4 mm of GC over the XE (or an additional 3.95 mm over the XT).

However, in practice, the curb/kerb weights of different variants may have a slight effect when measuring the GC (in addition to minor ride height modifications and little measurement inconsistencies, if any).

Tigor's specification sheet mentions a GC of 165 mm for the XE variant and 170 mm for XT, XZ & XZ(O) variants for both, petrol and diesel cars.

Last edited by RSR : 30th March 2017 at 11:41.
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Old 30th March 2017, 11:33   #638
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Default Re: Tata Tiago-based compact sedan. EDIT: Tigor launched at Rs 4.7 lakhs

This is exactly what I was speaking about a few weeks back. Back then, I was assuming a gap of 50k with Tiago and was thinking that the Tigor diesel top spec would be too close to Figo Titanium. But Tata surprised me and took it close to Aspire Titanium.

While the power may be sufficient for most BHPians who own more than one car and have a more powerful car for highway, for someone like me who have to take a big loan for a single car, this car won't cut it to be an all rounder at all.

Recently, I spent a good amount of time with a Grand i10 CRDI. The engine is of similar size and makes similar peak power, but its mid range is stronger (makes about 56 HP at 2500 RPM as opposed to the Revotorq's 49 at the same RPM). I had to beat the life out of the lil' motor to pull overtakes (4 people and 4 medium sized bags). I needed to use 2nd gear and 3rd gear for most overtakes on the 2 lane highways and the power delivered was just about adequate at best.

The Grand i10 diesel and Tiago are of similar weight and the Tigor weighs about 50 kg more reportedly. I can only imagine how difficult it would be to pull overtakes on the Tigor with a higher weight and a weaker mid range. The Grand i10 is very refined for a 3 cylinder and makes much less noise than 4 cylinders like multijet, Ford TDCI and VW TDI beyond 2000 RPM. The Revotorq with its noisy motor and feeble mid range punch will be quite unpleasant on 2 lane highways.

Tata really should have provided the Quadrajet 75 as an option, at least until their bigger in house engines were ready at least on the top variants (considering the premium charged).

I will continue to maintain that, like the Tiago, it is the petrol that makes sense, not the diesel especially with the counter balancer in place on the petrol which should reduce some of its shortcomings.

All the above are my personal opinions. No intentions to hurt anybody's feelings.

Last edited by theredliner : 30th March 2017 at 11:40.
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Old 30th March 2017, 12:01   #639
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Default Re: Tata Tiago-based compact sedan. EDIT: Tigor launched at Rs 4.7 lakhs

Quote:
Originally Posted by nkrishnap View Post
I believe this is way too early to conclude it this way.
True. But I do like to predict the sales and check later how did my prediction fare as compared to market response. It's fun, because when I looked back at the Bolt and Zest threads, my prediction does stand true, even though I received a lot of flak for it back then.

I'm guessing Tiago and Tigor will end up collectively doing only around 7.5k - 8.5k cars per month, once the initial excitement is over a year down the line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by theredliner View Post
for a single car, this car won't cut it to be an all rounder at all.
That sums it up perfectly.

With most families having one car each, an all rounder fares better in these segments. And an all rounder, the Tigor is not!

Hyundai has updated their motors now after realizing the mistake, with Grand i10 launched and new Xcent expected soon. However, TATA might not get that second chance as the market is ever so eager to write it off, and that's only a reality.

Last edited by CrAzY dRiVeR : 30th March 2017 at 12:03.
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Old 30th March 2017, 12:18   #640
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Default Re: Tata Tiago-based compact sedan. EDIT: Tigor launched at Rs 4.7 lakhs

I will agree with Crazy Driver.
Tata has missed a golden opportunity of disruptive pricing which would have made Tigor doing heavy volumes for the initial months and then they could have slowly jacked up prices like they did with Tiago.

Now, for people like me who are considering it as a second car may go for it in a lower variant due to the need of a good boot but the single car buyer will definitely look for other options which give better performance as an all round package.

An informed buyer will always prefer an Aspire Titanium which may have a couple of less features but is a better car overall over Tigor XZ(O). At least i would.

I predict it won't do more than 4k a month after its honeymoon period ends. The ideal pricing for XZ(O) should have been 6.7 - 6.8 ex showroom max.

I am genuinely disappointed as my running requires a diesel so I would have to go back to Tiago or opt for Figo D Titanium.

P.s- I got a feeling Tata got over confident seeing Tiago getting decent success. What they forgot is they are not Maruti who can sell an overpriced Ignis due to brand perception and A.S.S. Gonna backfire big time.

Last edited by harry10 : 30th March 2017 at 12:21.
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Old 30th March 2017, 12:42   #641
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Default Re: Tata Tiago-based compact sedan. EDIT: Tigor launched at Rs 4.7 lakhs

Since there is a discussion on price I've prepared the following chart with Ex showroom and OTR of compact sedans. All are Delhi prices

Source: CarDekho

Name:  Tigor Price.jpg
Views: 4326
Size:  172.2 KB

This is by how much Tigor undercuts the competition

Name:  Tigor less by.jpg
Views: 4242
Size:  104.8 KB

For Tigor: Base = XE, Mid = XT, Top = XZ (O)

What member CarguyNish has to say is evident in the chart

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarguyNish View Post
But the XZ & XZ(O) are dangerously close to Aspire Trend & Titanium.
Aspire Titanium variant is the best buy for what it offers - the best diesel engine in the segment, in fact Aspire Titanium petrol under cuts the Tigor XZ (O) by a good 43K

Not considered Ameo since its based on a premium hatch.

Last edited by Karthik Chandra : 30th March 2017 at 12:48.
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Old 30th March 2017, 12:43   #642
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Default Re: Tata Tiago-based compact sedan. EDIT: Tigor launched at Rs 4.7 lakhs

While the discussion is on about the Diesel XZ(O) variant being priced too close to Aspire Diesel Titanium, I would like to make a point here.

Do we see good numbers for the Aspire or the Figo which offers the best diesel engine performance in its segment? The answer is No!!

Its simply because the primary set of customers for this segment of compact sedans and B1 hatches are primarily looking for petrol engines.

So I don't see the Tigor doing abysmal numbers in this area as the Petrol variants are priced quite decently and should drive the numbers for this car.

If the balancer shaft irons out the vibrations, as claimed, then performance of the petrol variant would be at par with the segment (better than Aspire 1.2 definitely)
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Old 30th March 2017, 12:44   #643
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Default Re: Tata Tiago-based compact sedan. EDIT: Tigor launched at Rs 4.7 lakhs

Just to add to my above post about engine performance,

I had driven on the same road about a month before with a Swift diesel (weighs in between Tiago and Tigor), and the car never felt underpowered. I could pull most overtakes in 3rd and 4th gears by making use of the good mid range power and never had to cross 3000-3200 RPM.

I have also driven a Figo TDCI in roads with very similar traffic conditions (not the same road) and the TDCI pulls the overtakes effortlessly in 4th gear. If I downshift to 3rd and floor the throttle, the car just demolishes every other vehicle on the road and goes like a car from a couple of segments above.

While TDCI like ferocity is not really needed, quadrajet like power is definitely needed for highway is what I would like to convey.

Last edited by theredliner : 30th March 2017 at 12:45.
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Old 30th March 2017, 12:53   #644
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Default Re: Tata Tiago-based compact sedan. EDIT: Tigor launched at Rs 4.7 lakhs

I don't disagree with you. But let's discuss Tigor here. Tigor does bring in a lot - like projector headlamps, rear view camera, better audio than segment above and what I like most - a well integrated boot that looks stylish. The only shortcomings that come to my attention are:

1. Small fuel tank of 35 L - this seems to have become a kinf of trend now with Baleno and Ignis also coming with 35-37L tanks.
2. Engine options. I still need to experience the engine options with the changed weight and dynamics of the Tigror. The addition of balancer shaft should have reduced vibrations. But I will reserve my judgement till I drive the Tigor.

Both these points make a difference only on long highway runs. Range of 35L is adequate for city driving and so is the power.

I do wish the Tiago and Tigor twins do get a 4 star rating like the Zest. I only don't trust any manufacturer until the car is tested.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragavsr View Post
I never said the Tiago was premium to the Grand i10. I just said the Grand i10 was not premium to the Tiago.

Well, I own an old Figo. So no car in this segment including the new Figo is going to come close. The new Figo , going by all reviews is not as good as the old one when it comes to handling.Leaving aside the difference in power, Tata cars are not poor handling cars by any means .
The Zest did get 4 stars . All the zero star cars were cars without airbags. Tata cars are usually well built.

The safety aspect needs to be tested and you can agree to disagree with it.
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Old 30th March 2017, 13:06   #645
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Default Re: Tata Tiago-based compact sedan. EDIT: Tigor launched at Rs 4.7 lakhs

Too early to be judgmental here. This is open market and almost every player has seen success and failures here.

- Ford introduced "Fusion" ahead of its time and witnessed failure
- MSIL with S-Cross 1.6

The list is long.

I for one would consider this car as a fair attempt from TML, the pricing given the features is not too bad. It is not off by Lacs as to what we witnessed for S-Cross. I see a good chance of this car tasting success similar to Tiago and TML would not take it otherwise if together Tigor and Tiago can sell 10K copies every month.

It is a known fact that production of hatchback is slightly costlier compared to the sedan version; therefore the production cost and margins will not hurt Tatas even if they hold on to this pricing for longer periods making it look better against competition as the year progresses.

A 1.3 MJD is something that market expects, yet we cannot forget that Tiago and Tigor are all new cars and the company has to recover the development cost from sales. Plonking a third party licensed engine would have reduced margins / pricing freedom.

The in-house CR4 mill is also undergoing improvements while the Revetron (1.2 with turbo) is something which they can introduce to these cars depending upon market response. In an ideal scenario with all wings to my wisdom

- CR5 (if the updated CR4 gets a new name) and 1.2 Revetron (with smaller turbo doing duty in Zest) may find way in Tiago / Tigor duo. TML categorically clarified that 1.2 Revetron can take a larger turbo and return 100 bhp+, just that they want to have adequate confidence on their Turbo Petrol which is based on Indica Zeta Petrol block

- Zest may breach the CS segment 4.0 meter limitation, use 1.3 MJD in higher state of tune (90 hp) along with Revetron 1.2 with bigger turbo (100 hp) and play in C2 segment which is missing in the present Tata portfolio

Let's wait and watch.

Last edited by i74js : 30th March 2017 at 13:11.
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