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Old 9th August 2006, 13:27   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amit
One big reason for the failure of the Petrol Innova is the automotive culture of India. Over the years Indians have to come to associate or rather equate Vans, MUV's, SUV's with diesel. Whether this is the correct perception is a different topic altogether but I am sure we all will agree that for an Indian a car or automobile like Innova, Safari, Scorpio is always going to be associated with diesel and this applies to all Indians, from the first time car buyer to the millionaire. Add to that the ever improving diesel technology and it gets even more difficult to convince an Indian to go in for a Petrol MUV or SUV.

Taking my own example, I have lived in Toronto for over a year now and I still can't understand how anyone can buy a Petrol MUV, SUV or even a pick-Up!

You echoed my thoughts buddy. We tend to associate these vehicles with the Diesel Tag. Since these are big vehicles, a higher Cc petrol engine would be used and would directly reflect on the poor fuel efficiency and higher fuel bills and hence diesel engine would be the default choice.

Even if Petrol version is less pricier than the diesel, the users would always feel the pinch of paying for the petrol fuel everytime they visit the fuel pumps.

They would rather pay excess money for the diesel vehicle upfront and and have a sense of relief/satisfaction going to the fuel pumps. Call it the indian phsyche or whatever.

I sure feel diesel is a more practical choice and no goodies or advertising would lure me for the petrol unless i have some compelling practical reasons.
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Old 9th August 2006, 14:33   #32
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Diesel Innova or Petrol Innova. Good question.

Now let me give my reason, why not Petrol Innova.

First, i would choose a petrol vehicle if my daily run would do justice to the fuel bills and maintainace. So, it has to be a city dweller with an bi annually long drives. Petrol Innova scores over Diesel Innova here. And this is the senerio, for most of the common people.

Now the size of Innova, does that justify it as a city slicker??? Unfortunately no. For that Money I can have atleast two small hatchbacks/Sedan, which are ideal for cite dwelling, and gives me tha flexibility, one car for me another with a driver more my folks at home, and they can also do those occassional runs when needed, two times a year max.

So the advantage of the petrol Innova is gone due to its size, in city.

So the only segment remains, are the highway burnners, A.K.A tour operators. Well, petrol is a slang in their bussiness. So you got the point.

Only if the petrol, Innova have been more hip, maybe it would have found the favour with the MOM-DAD-ultrarich-kid-has-own-car type of ppl. ( No offence intended). But that is a nich segment. And I think the Innova Potrol is a car for Nich segment. Just that TKM wants to have their foot hold on a market, which though having potential, may never grow in India, due to the fuel pricing.
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Old 9th August 2006, 14:55   #33
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Due to various reasons mentioned in this thread, no matter what advertisement / marketing strategy they try, TKM cannot make the Innova P sell more.

The only entity that can breathe life into the Innova P is the GoI - by removing the existing subsidies on diesel and bringing the price of diesel on par with petrol, as it logically should be. The day this happens, you can see people preferring Petrol variants over diesel.

But then, in a country like ours, where populism reigns over common-sense, don't see this happening for a long time to come.
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Old 9th August 2006, 15:28   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supremeBaleno
The only entity that can breathe life into the Innova P is the GoI - by removing the existing subsidies on diesel and bringing the price of diesel on par with petrol, as it logically should be. The day this happens, you can see people preferring Petrol variants over diesel.
Even if a litre of petrol cost the same as a litre of diesel,
a 2-litre petrol engine would return 6-8 km/litre
while a 2-litre diesel would return double of that, viz. 12-16 km/litre.
So the diesel would be more economical.

Of course the 2-litre petrol engine would put out 140 bhp and run rings around the 2-litre diesel (not turbo) engine would put out barely 65 bhp.

And the diesel would be noisier, smokier, require costlier MIL-C/MIL-D grade engine oil and make costlier trips to the garage workshop.

Ram
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Old 9th August 2006, 16:18   #35
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Post providing more info is not possible simce its confidential

Quote:
Originally Posted by condor
Rekha, could you give a split for the other 96% of Innova users? One point has been to understand why the 4% chose the Innova P. categorizing the other 96% can show how many of buyers were commercial, and how many were for personal use.

Commercial users - would stick to diesel. You would leave these users out of any analysis.

Of the personal users, there could be a group who could have been influenced to have selected the petrol version. You may need to educate buyers about savings that they would actually get, so they can take a more informed decision.

Some of these owners who have taken diesels could have done so keeping in mind the re-sale. Used vehicles do often end up as a taxi.

Of the NRI's, they would continue with petrol version of any vehicle they choose, mainly because of their experiences there. OT, diesel is more expensive than petrol in the US.

Is there any data and analysis of the competition - Tavera?

The only point I would not agree with, with what Ram says is that the first car would typically be a hatch, and then upgraded to a 3-box, before looking for a second hatch, or may be a second 3-box. A simple look around will show more hatch-backs than 3-box sedans.


A related question: Why Innova ?

At this time, my thoughts are that the only other way to increase Innova P sales would be by increasing Innova sales. But looking at the traffic today in our cities, and parking, the focus would be on vehicles smaller than the Innova.

Also, even if Toyota didn't intend to, the Innova came out as a replacement for the Qualis, which again was more a people mover than a personal vehicle. If both were available at the same time, and comparable, Personal preferences apart, I would have taken the Qualis - the Innova is bigger, and looks & feels much larger than it is. Parking is definitely a problem - finding the space.

The performance and the FE of the Innova compared to other choices in that price range is another factor against the Innova [unless there is a specific need for the buyer to go for a vehicle that often transports 6+ people].

If possible, please do provide more data - numbers make it that much easier to understand and provide suggestions. While we are discussing this, I hope you and we are not stepping beyond defined lines with regard to bringing information outside of TKM.
the reason why i dint provide more data and findings is that - til now what all i provided was not confidential to TKM. but after this limit, sorry, i cant since its confidential to TKM which i'm not supposed to leak out. anywayz guys thanks for all your views
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Old 9th August 2006, 16:21   #36
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I asked my cousin why he bought an Innova petrol.
He said.
1) Diesels were unpopular in the US, and he trusted their judgement better than his own.
2) The petrol engine put out more BHP.
3) His company was anyway covering the running and maintenance costs.

I don't necessarily agree with his point-of-view. And I know he's never redlined his vehicle.
But hey, it's his honest point-of-view.

Nevertheless, it got me thinking about the Indian car buyer and his evolving automobile. A long train of thought, harking back to when the hot hatch from Suzuki ended the Fiat-Herald-Ambassador (FHA) era!

When the first Maruti 800, van and Gypsy came in 1983, all cars were 3-box cars.
The Maruti hatches shepherded the old 3-boxers out.

The Maruti 800 was smaller, more fragile yet more expensive (spares cost a bomb too), compared to the ubiquitous second-hand Fiat.

Offering superior reliability, fit, finish, acceleration and fuel economy, it edged out the 3-box cars.
It wouldn't stall in the rain as often as a Fiat or an Ambassador.
With front disc brakes, brake failure after wading through a flooded road, became a forgotten concept.
And you didn't have to do tinwork and painting every 2-3 years.

A flood of hatches followed -- the Zen, Fiat Uno, Hyundai Santro, Daewoo Matiz and Maruti Wagon-R.
They completely turned the tide of public acceptance in favor of the hatch.

A tide that the Tata Indica rode to stardom.
It was the right product at the right time and more spacious than the baby hatches.
After some initial teething problems, the Indica lingered on to become the mainstay the tourist taxi industry.
Along with big brother Sumo, the Indica continues to this day as the most popular call-center commuter.

Positioned as pricey luxury cars, The Maruti 1000 and Esteem weren't welcomed with open arms, when they debuted.
Unlike the Maruti 800 and Fiat Uno, the Indian psyche wouldn't accept them as mainstream cars.

The arrival of the Cielo, Escort and Astra fixed that. In comparison to them, the little Esteem gained perception of being acceptable and fair-priced. Starting with the nation's capital, Delhi, Indian cities filled up with them.

The Hyundai Accent, Ford Ikon, Daewoo Nexia (the DOHC Cielo), OHC and Lancer were the next wave.
Followed by the Baleno, NHC, Optra, Elantra, Octavia and the drum roll goes on...

In the world of truck-based, non-4x4 station wagon bread-boxes, the Willys-Overland 4-75 gave way to the Mahindra Town and Country Wagonette and the Bajaj-Tempo Matador and Trax country-cadillacs. These in turn paved the way for the slightly more refined Commander, Bolero, Tata Sumo, Toyota Qualis, Mahindra Scorpio and Chevrolet Tavera.

We've come a long way, but the Innova doesn't fit anywhere in the Indian scheme of things.

While the Toyota Qualis minivan was based on the Toyota minitruck, the monocoque Innova minivan is more car like, without the handling, balance and beauty expected of a car that size.

By way of buyer perception, it neither has the ruggedness of the Qualis and Scorpio, nor the sweet beauty of the Lancers, Accents and Balenos with whom it shares its price range.

It is not known for fuel economy. It does not fit the rugged chassis-based rough road station wagon image of the 2-wheel-drive Scorpio and Sumo. Like the proverbial laundryman's dog, it's stuck between a car and a van, alienating both sets of customers.

Marketing hyperbole and film-star brand ambassadors can only do so much. No wonder it's hurrying along to its place in the dusty junkyard of market misfits.

Ram
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Old 9th August 2006, 16:25   #37
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Post thank u all guys for ur views

Quote:
Originally Posted by rohitbagai
THIS IS MY EARLIER POST AT THE OTHER THREAD
Welcome Aboard!
Interesting project too.
Innova is first three-row seating passenger car in India. It’s one of the 5 models of IMV project……
Ok ..ok lets start with the project here
The target market that it’s made to cater is something Toyota guys should redefine. Infact Innova should make effort to make its own segment. The PC and MAV segment that it’s bound to cater should expand. I am not discussing the diesel version as its segment can be bit different.
Two parts of your projects are …Firstly…why sales are dropping
Secondly ..what promotional strategies should be adopted.
Sales may be dropping because of various reasons but since marketing is our focus I will say that sales are dropping because of lack of promotion….Yes you heard me right.
The Innova marketing exercise has been through out good with “All You Desire” tag. It has a great recall. BUT it’s for the brand Innova and not for PETROL Innova. As both cars have different set of customers to target the marketing campaign should also focus on them differently. Like the Indica XETA started it for the petrol variant or Accent is doing for its CRDi.
So the first mantra is product differentiation. …
Product differentiation can be done by branding…
for branding we need a name ..
What do you call a diesel Innova?....Answer:--Innova (I know technically its D4D)
What do you call a petrol Innova?...Answer…Innova (I know technically its VVT-I)
As you must be aware of there are two types of strategies (Push, Pull). Both strategies are needed always! But in case of Innova we should focus on the pull strategy after all you can’t push a customer who has come to buy a diesel innova to buy petrol innova…right? You need to pull customer to come and ask for petrol innova.
For that you need to define segment. I would like to segment it on the basis of Usage. As it’s the only thing that will be different in profile of person buying Diesel or a petrol Innova. The heavy user would prefer to go for Diesel Innova because of obvious reasons of economy offering of a diesel car while the light user would use the car occasionally like on weekends taking whole family/friends out. Since the car would run around 500-1000 Km per month they won’t mind spending few extra amounts in exchange of better refinement, low maintenance and more peace of mind.
So now we have a defined target segment.
Its time for implementation. So we need advertisements?.
Oh Ok we also need brand ambassador. …what??.... Amir Khan???
He is alone in that big car?? Driving alone? …well no way…wrong person as a brand ambassador. For a car this big we can’t go with a single person who does not have an image even as a family man(no offence). …We need a whole family or a group of friends. All should be familiar faces. Easy option can be Indian cricket team. Present them as busy guys who are taking their free time to enjoy life with Innova. Or you can take the crew of saas bhi kabhi bahu thi!!!! lol.
Anyways one thing is for sure….Petrol Innova is not a mass market product. It’ll have a niche market. Even Maruti Versa had a tough time finding that market….Hope with better offering and premium brand image Innova can find one.
Best of luck...and have a good time at t-bhp
Rohi</div>
hi, thanks for ur views. i've already read ur mail in other thread. i've already done my project and i was sharing few stuff which was not confidential. but after this, i wont be able to give any details since i'm not supposed to. anywayz thank u guys
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Old 9th August 2006, 16:28   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ram
Not break horse power, brake horse power.
Trifles make perfection, and perfection is no trifle - Michelangelo di Lodovico Buonarroti (1475-1564)

I've seen both BHP(caps) and bhp(lower case) used.
Although for boiler horse power it's always bhp, not BHP.

Ram
ya it was brake horse power. since i typed in hurry, spelling mistake. thank you
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Old 9th August 2006, 16:30   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by condor
man23ish, you are referring to two different categories of vehicles, and related buyers.

IMHO, the point you mention is not particularly relevant to the subject of this thread.
How are they two different categories of vehicles?? I won't go into the nitty-gritties of an MPV Vs a MUV and the technicalities, ground clearance, turning radius, engine power, fit and finish etc.

Do you think the indian consumer is bothered by all the technical crap? Ultimately what sells is value for money. Innova petrol can carry 8 adults, "BIG DEAL", but so can an Omni and it costs a lot less to do so.. Whats more, the turning radius is better, it is easy to park..

I agree that the omni is amongst the unsafest vehicles on roads, but for a city commute with congested roads, the omni is the most convenient one, especially if you have a family..

Look at the value to cost ratio, and you'll find the Omni scoring in every department, leaving the comfort and risk factor aside.
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Old 9th August 2006, 16:31   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ram

Nevertheless, it got me thinking about the Indian car buyer and his evolving automobile. A long train of thought, harking back to when the hot hatch from Suzuki ended the Fiat-Herald-Ambassador .................................................. .................................................. ...................................Marketing hyperbole and film-star brand ambassadors can only do so much. No wonder it's hurrying along to its place in the dusty junkyard of market misfits.

Ram

....and your point is ?
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Old 9th August 2006, 16:31   #41
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WOW Ram that was put together beautifully!!

Couldn't have put it better & I agree with you completely on this. Most people reject the Innova on favour of the Safari/Scorpio because of the looks which are neither SUV nor Saloon! But if you look at Interiors, NVH & refinement it is still head & shoulders above the SUV competitors.
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Old 9th August 2006, 16:46   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hondadude
When Innova was lauched, TKM didn't expect the drop in sales in the Taxi Operator segment vis a vis Qualis. To a lot of Taxi operators (I talked to a couple myself), Innova wasn't as rugged as Qualis. Its probably more a perception because of its shape compared to Qualis. On the other hand they found out that a lot of people are buying Innova for their personal/family use. These people wouldn't have bought Qualis because of its bread box looks. So TKM repositioned Innova as a family car as well.
A really big assumption there, but it isn't true. Toyota actually wanted the drop in sales to taxi operators and they achieved it. There was no repositioning. See this thread (Toyota's Image Makeover) I posted long back. I posted it before the Innova launch, therefore I had no advantage of hindshight.
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Old 9th August 2006, 19:09   #43
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The first question I would ask is : what kind of market research did Toyota use to determine that Indian market would like the petrol Innova. Answer: None
Innova was designed for SE Asian markets to replace Kijang which was sold in petrol and diesel versions for 2 decades.
Toyota assumed that the InnovaP would do well just because Kijang P did well elsewhere. There was plenty of sales data to support the fact that Indian market does not favour petrol UVs. Following petrol UVs have bombed in the recent past
· Petrol Qualis
· Petrol Safari
· Petrol Scorpio
· Maruti Gypsy (would have done much better with TUD5)

Of course Toyota being Toyota will do its own thing, so lets try to figure out how we can push this product into the market.
Like someone said, no point in convincing diesel buyer to buy petrol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ram
We've come a long way, but the Innova doesn't fit anywhere in the Indian scheme of things.

While the Toyota Qualis minivan was based on the Toyota minitruck, the monocoque Innova minivan is more car like, without the handling, balance and beauty expected of a car that size.
Ram
Well the looks are deceving, but the Innova is not a monocoque but a full frame vehicle and the rolling chassis is shared with Hilux and Fortuner.

A good product can create a new category in the market just like the M800 did for hatchbacks or Sumo/Scorpio did for midlevel personal use SUVs. I am sure the Innova also will.

Last edited by Mpower : 9th August 2006 at 19:12.
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Old 9th August 2006, 19:31   #44
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Ram, well put. But just like the Esteem found it's place, will something else come along to let the Innova P suddenly find it's place in the sun?

man23ish, when I buy a car, I would have decided on the category and the price range before I evaluate the options for my choices. Just because an Innova is thrice as expensive as a small car, an Innova buyer will not go for three small cars. Even a taxi operator would have decided the segment he will serve to, before he buys his vehicle. Some one hiring an Innova will not hire an Omni.

Last edited by condor : 9th August 2006 at 19:33.
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Old 9th August 2006, 19:54   #45
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Default Petrol SUVs are doomed !!

Safari Petrol

Scorpio Petrol

Innova Petrol... All dead in no time..

2 other capable SUVs - Chevy Forrester and Suzuki Grand Vitara , would have sold much more only if they had a diesel option IMO.
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