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Old 9th August 2006, 19:56   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by condor
man23ish, when I buy a car, I would have decided on the category and the price range before I evaluate the options for my choices. Just because an Innova is thrice as expensive as a small car, an Innova buyer will not go for three small cars. Even a taxi operator would have decided the segment he will serve to, before he buys his vehicle. Some one hiring an Innova will not hire an Omni.
Condor,

Don't take it personally, but the market is not just about you. It is you and me and the rest of 100 Billion population of the country. If you do the market research, value for money is the prime reason that consumerism thrives in India. Indians are the most value conscious people in the world..

A Hi-tech engine and plush interiors do not make a product successful in the market. Not everybody buys or drives the Merc.

For any product to be successful, it has to have a Mass appeal plus solid reliability and good quality at a reasonable price. Look no further than the success of the Qualis..

While i would still categorize the Innova-D as a success story, the Innova-P is a totally different tale. First-of all, it is a proven fact that Diesel engines are more powerful and more fuel-efficient than their petrol counterparts.. So as somebody mentioned in this thread below. If i can get an average of about 11-12 km on a 38 Rs/Litre diesel vs 7-8 km on a 51 Rs/Litre petrol. Which one am i going to prefer? Its plain-old economics..

Ultimately, what matters is how much BANG you can get for your BUCK !!
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Old 9th August 2006, 22:41   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by man23ish

It is you and me and the rest of 100 Billion population of the country.
I am sure its a typo but still, our population is only 1.5 Billion at best.

Quote:
Originally Posted by man23ish
If you do the market research, value for money is the prime reason that consumerism thrives in India. Indians are the most value conscious people in the world..
This holds true not just for Indians but for any poor man....be he indian or american.



Quote:
Originally Posted by man23ish
If i can get an average of about 11-12 km on a 38 Rs/Litre diesel vs 7-8 km on a 51 Rs/Litre petrol. Which one am i going to prefer? Its plain-old economics..
Maybe its not that simple. When I was in the market for a new car, I wanted the economy of a diesel and the refinement of a petrol. My choices at 7 lacs rs???.......NOT A SINGLE CAR. So I go ahead and buy a car which gives 7-8 km on a 51 Rs/Litre petrol. Ok..the baleno gives a bit more..but then you get the point.
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Old 9th August 2006, 22:42   #48
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Originally Posted by Samurai
A really big assumption there, but it isn't true. Toyota actually wanted the drop in sales to taxi operators and they achieved it. There was no repositioning. See this thread (Toyota's Image Makeover) I posted long back. I posted it before the Innova launch, therefore I had no advantage of hindshight.
Good point Samurai. I wonder why they launched low end model for the taxi operators if they were not interested in it. Guess they didn't want the segment to go away, just dial down on it.
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Old 9th August 2006, 22:48   #49
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Originally Posted by ram

We've come a long way, but the Innova doesn't fit anywhere in the Indian scheme of things.

Marketing hyperbole and film-star brand ambassadors can only do so much. No wonder it's hurrying along to its place in the dusty junkyard of market misfits.

Ram
Since your comment is not specific to Innova Petrol (please correct me if I am wrong) I am having a hard time understanding this. How does TKM manage to sell around 3500 Innovas per month if it is a market misfit ?
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Old 9th August 2006, 22:49   #50
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Also guys,

Rekha is done with her project, thanked all of us for our views and has also indicated that no more information can be shared due to confidentiality issues. I think its time for us to move on.

My point....I too did my summer internship with Maruti and my project?....."Why did the Gypsy fail in the Indian Market". My freinds project?..."Why did the Auto box of the esteem fail". And I am talking about 8 years ago. These products are still a failure. We need more than projects here.....we need a company who will listen to what the consumer wants. And more importantly, stop selling us outdated inferior products which cant even make it to a developed nation.

Just my $0.02
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Old 10th August 2006, 10:54   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by w 12
Safari Petrol Scorpio Petrol Innova Petrol... All dead in no time..
2 other capable SUVs - Chevy Forrester and Suzuki Grand Vitara , would have sold much more only if they had a diesel option IMO.
If I am right the Honda CRV (petrol SUV) is doing decent numbers. How come this petrol SUV is selling ? Honda image ???
And I keep reading on the forum that it is a gas-guzzler. Find it hard to believe that a Honda guzzles gas ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ritik123
So I go ahead and buy a car which gives 7-8 km on a 51 Rs/Litre petrol. Ok..the baleno gives a bit more..but then you get the point.
Which car did you buy ? At 12kmpl city FE, the Baleno gives 50% more (not "bit more").
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Old 10th August 2006, 10:59   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supremeBaleno
Which car did you buy ? At 12kmpl city FE, the Baleno gives 50% more (not "bit more").
SB, the point above by ritik123 wasnt about FE, but more in response to the post by man23ish reg selection of vehicles.
man23ish, you will agree that there is more to buying a car than looking at just the total cost & cost to run.

Even if small, there will be a market for vehicles like the Innova P. Any increase that can happen in the sales of the Innova P will have to be from buyers who are looking out for similar vehicles, or atleast close to that model.

Last edited by condor : 10th August 2006 at 11:01.
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Old 10th August 2006, 14:09   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by condor
man23ish, you will agree that there is more to buying a car than looking at just the total cost & cost to run.

Even if small, there will be a market for vehicles like the Innova P. Any increase that can happen in the sales of the Innova P will have to be from buyers who are looking out for similar vehicles, or atleast close to that model.
Oh yes, i certainly agree that there is more to buying a car than looking at costs, and that is its utility value, the reason that one is buying the car. One has to look at a lot of factors while buying a car. But it would be fool-hardiness to ignore the cost factors.

Let me get a little to the history of the market segment that Innova (both P & D) are trying to capture.

It all first started with Bajaj Tempo's Matador F307, if you remember what that was.. 25 Years Back, that was the ultimate family + MPV vehicle. One in which you can load your entire family and all their belongings and pack off on a vacation.. Heck, Bajaj Tempo also came with different wheel-bases for this vehicle.

The Matador's sales saw a decline when Maruti launched the Omni, The Omni was a smaller vehicle and had lesser space than the Matador but with changing family dynamics, small families (not nuclear), with parents, kids and grandparents. So the consumer market saw a great product and took up to it immediately. As far as i understand the sales-figures for the Omni are still in the top 10 if not the top 5.

Then of-course there was the Tata Sumo and Mahindra vehicles, but they were always looked upon as Tourist vehicles and public carriers. They were not Multi-Utility vehicles in the same sense as the Matador and the Omni.

Enters Toyota Innova, in the MPV segment, but gets its reputation spoiled as a public carrier from day one, although it still is a great family vehicle. No doubt the vehicle in its Diesel avatar is still selling quite well. But tell me a single vehicle in India that was launched in both the Petrol and Diesel avatars and succeeded in both.

My conclusion:

1. If you have both engine options, petrol as well as diesel, the diesel options are always going to sell more in India giving the pricing dynamics.

2. If TKM had launched only a petrol version of the Innova, it would have bombed anyways, because of competition (read Omni) which is cheaper, gives better average and it better suited for urban conditions than the Innova.

3. On a side note, it is anybody's guess which vehicle will be the chart-burster when Maruti launches the Omni with a Diesel engine.

4. Tata-motors can also bring out a variant of their Ace-trucks in an MPV format and I would be very surprised if the market doesn't take up to that product well.

Enuf Said..

:-)
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Old 10th August 2006, 14:14   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by condor
when I buy a car, I would have decided on the category and the price range before I evaluate the options for my choices. Just because an Innova is thrice as expensive as a small car, an Innova buyer will not go for three small cars..
Exactly right. But would you prefer the Petrol or Diesel???? Given that diesel is quite cheaper. And BTW why would you buy a petrol mammoth in city when quite a few petrol sedans are available for the same or less money, with better petrol efficiency, better handling, and comfort??

Remember this thread is Petrol VS diesel Innova only. And when some one compares a Innova with a car, or something else it is about petrol innova.


Quote:
Originally Posted by condor
Even a taxi operator would have decided the segment he will serve to, before he buys his vehicle. Some one hiring an Innova will not hire an Omni.


Sure, this is my family business, so I know there are customers who would hire only Ambassador, even if a Sumo is available at the same rate.(This actually happened to me. The ambassador that was booked by the customer had an accident while it was on the way to report to the customer. So I had provided him with a Sumo for the same charge of the Ambassador. And beilive me he was very unhappy for not getting the Ambassador.)
But you see I have to make profit out of the business, so I have Diesel Innova's in my fleet, not petrol. Again Petrol VS Diesel.

So hopefully you got the point.
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Old 10th August 2006, 14:36   #55
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Thats right Himanshu, Aveo is two times 40K savings compared with Fiesta I feel, it has great looks and ride comfort but I felt Aveo has less inside space compared with Fiesta, Aveo is similar to swift, I mean Swift looks great among premium hatchback cars but inside story is different, same with Aveo too.

Innova petrol poor sales figure because of just mentality of Indian. People simply go for Diesel when it comes to bigger vehicles, According to me one must choose Diesel small car and bigger Petrol Car. There are many car owners now in India who have multiple vehicles for city and higway use. This is my 5 years down the line plan. For short distances in city driving Diesel makes lot of sense to me, On higways Petrol is worth for many reasons.

Regards,

Ravi.
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Old 10th August 2006, 15:18   #56
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Ravi.. yaar I didn't get the Idea of small deisel and big petrol.

Could you explain the funda????
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Old 10th August 2006, 15:24   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ravibhat

Innova petrol poor sales figure because of just mentality of Indian. People simply go for Diesel when it comes to bigger vehicles, According to me one must choose Diesel small car and bigger Petrol Car. There are many car owners now in India who have multiple vehicles for city and higway use. This is my 5 years down the line plan. For short distances in city driving Diesel makes lot of sense to me, On higways Petrol is worth for many reasons.

Regards,

Ravi.
Dude!

R u sure u havent got it the other way round?
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Old 10th August 2006, 15:34   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supremeBaleno
If I am right the Honda CRV (petrol SUV) is doing decent numbers. How come this petrol SUV is selling ? Honda image ???
And I keep reading on the forum that it is a gas-guzzler. Find it hard to believe that a Honda guzzles gas ...
Absolutely bang on Target..CRV is the only exception and I think it is the Honda Image which sells !!! And its numbers are decent only when you compare to other flops IMO ..

Imagine a Honda CRV with Diesel option.... and as a CKD not CBU..Innova Diesels numbers will get seriously dented ..
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Old 10th August 2006, 15:34   #59
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Hey Steeroid, they have tried jazzing up the Innova with the whole new "black" look with skirts, fogs etc.

But all said and done, it's still a van.
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Old 10th August 2006, 16:27   #60
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Maybe we should have a 'Photoshop the Innova' contest - make that ugly beast look sportier/atleast estateish, without any structural changes.
Feel free to add cladding, different tyres, roof rails, decals,grills, colors etc.
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