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Old 5th January 2015, 17:03   #31
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Thumbs up Re: Desperately wanted: A Hot Hatch for the Indian enthusiast

  • How much does an average indian spend on a car , I would say about 7/8 lacs for a hatch and 10 lacs for a sedan.(Thats why the market is priced that way and not the other way round)
  • So who exactly would go for a hot hatch at 15L , True enthusiasts and the ones who can afford a second car. (Probably whose first car is above 20L and upwards)
  • India still has time to reach the 15L hot hatch concept.

That being said, few examples that come into my mind are:
  1. Polo GT TDi/Tsi
  2. Tjet (Fiat might soon plonk it in the punto/avventura)
  3. Jazz (1.5) (expected in 2015)
  4. Punto Abarth (expected in 2015, Tjet with 140/165 bhp that too at 9.5 lacs? Fiat loyalists please throw some light )

When the 1.6 GT TDi was launched I wanted to go ahead and pick it up but I got a stern rebuke from everyone in the family.( "How can you spend near to 10 lacs for a hatch" ). So i have put my car purchase on hold.

However the change is there , while one can't expect 200bhp to be out there any time soon, we definitely have a "Indian Hot hatch" at around 100bhp exclusive for the "Indian Roads". Lets Wait and watch to see wether the trend is upwards in 2015.
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Old 5th January 2015, 17:21   #32
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Default Re: Desperately wanted: A Hot Hatch for the Indian enthusiast

Quote:
Originally Posted by d_himan View Post
I spent on the 1.2 tsi for double the power.

That said, I don't think anyone's going to give 180-200 bhp for 12 lacs...good engine = good electronics = high level of standard equipment = high price..
The price difference between the 1.2L TSI & 1.8L TSI is a fraction of 'double the money'. In fact, some of that difference can be further negated by giving a 6-speed MT as an option (instead of the more expensive DSG).

VW already sells the Polo 1.8 TSI (EA888 motor) in other markets - Sample Link

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
I never understood what the fun of cramming a powerful engine in what is essentially a small ass car. You might go fast, but you re still cramped as hell.
A Polo with 180 BHP will be immensely more fun than a large Octavia with the same engine. It'll run rings around its bigger, heavier sister.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1100D View Post
But then given the low volumes these things would generate, the manufacturers would go the CBU route that would push up the prices.
Why CBU? A Polo 1.8 TSI, Punto 1.4 T-Jet, Figo 1.6 etc. don't require to go down the expensive CBU route. They have the car & engine right here in India!

Quote:
Originally Posted by fiestarry View Post
Why dont you buy a used Fiesta 1.6 S, upgrade tyres, Pete it, Red Rooster it, remap it etc etc and finish everything for 6 lakhs and 4.2 metres and 400 liters of (to) boot ?
True. Until the hot hatchbacks come, fast sedans are the only option for enthusiasts. A used Laura 1.8 TSI for 6 lakhs? D-r-o-o-l!

Quote:
As Jeroen says a hatch will still be a cramped option.
Your Fiesta example is as cramped as the Figo...they are basically the same car

Quote:
Originally Posted by vb-san View Post
Suzuki have the brilliant Swift Sport in their international portfolio which can be an easy fit in the Indian Market, with a price tag of around 10-11 lakhs. The car is well equipped with a 134bhp 1.6L engine, and have all necessary safety picks like 6 airbags, disc brakes all-around, ESP etc.
This awesome Swift was showcased at the Auto Expo! Related Thread (Maruti @ Auto Expo 2014)

Desperately wanted: A Hot Hatch for the Indian enthusiast-1a-1.jpg

Quote:
Similarly Honda has the option to give the Jazz with the 1.5 ivtec. But unfortunately these manufacturers are all about numbers, and are hardly bothered to provide with niche offerings.
The Jazz is hardly a 'driving machine'. Better they don't even think of a Jazz 1.5.

Quote:
Originally Posted by humyum View Post
A 150 to 160 bhp petrol hatchback will give peanut mileage in the city
Turbo-petrols are more efficient. When a Laura 1.8 TSI can be made to give 9 kpl in the city, what stops a lighter Polo with the same engine to give 10 kpl? That's respectable FE.

Quote:
Example: Drive a Swift Petrol in 'drive it like you stole it mode' on the highway, you will reach south of 10 kmpl. Drive a Swift Diesel like your tail was on fire, you will be hard pressed to reach anywhere south of 14-15.
True. And that's just one of the reasons I love the erstwhile 1.6L GT TDI. What a phenomenal car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao View Post
Maruti has the 1.4 K-series they can fit into the the Swift
Oh God, no!!! The 1.4L K-Series is far from an enthusiasts motor. It makes merely 94 BHP & has a flat mid-range.

Meanwhile, those with deep pockets should be on the lookout for these in the pre-worshipped market. I can tell you, on our highways, it's more fun than a Ferrari:

Last edited by GTO : 5th January 2015 at 17:23.
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Old 5th January 2015, 17:38   #33
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Default Re: Desperately wanted: A Hot Hatch for the Indian enthusiast

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Oh God, no!!! The 1.4L K-Series is far from an enthusiasts motor. It makes merely 94 BHP & has a flat mid-range.
In the Ertiga which is a 'big' car as compared to a hatchback, it feels peppy and quick. The Diesel feel boring and slow as compared.

The same K14M put in the Swift would do a great difference. May not be a ultra-fire breather but yes would do the job efficiently. Thanks to the handling-friendly chassis of the Swift it will be a FTD car. I have no hopes of Maruti launching the 1.6L Sport! At least this engine should make way in that bay.
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Old 5th January 2015, 17:43   #34
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Default Re: Desperately wanted: A Hot Hatch for the Indian enthusiast

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Originally Posted by 1100D View Post
I so agree with you, infact you forgot to add the Toyota GT86.
As this thread is now pointing towards more expensive cars (>15 Lakhs, as the OP suggested), might we add Subaru Impreza to the list? It sure is an awesome car, and quite close to the "legendary" status.
Available in 1.6 / 2.0 L, close to 270 horses and weighing just over 1300 kgs.

For the space conscious enthusiasts, this comes in a sedan form too.
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Old 5th January 2015, 17:58   #35
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Default Re: Desperately wanted: A Hot Hatch for the Indian enthusiast

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Why CBU? A Polo 1.8 TSI, Punto 1.4 T-Jet, Figo 1.6 etc. don't require to go down the expensive CBU route. They have the car & engine right here in India!
Thats the key. Hatchbacks especially from the likes of VW and Fiat are sound on build and safety, and all they need is to get the combination right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO
The Jazz is hardly a 'driving machine'. Better they don't even think of a Jazz 1.5.
True, cannot be mentioned in the same line as the Swift Sport or a Polo GTI. That said, a 130bhp Jazz 1.5 with a 6-speed MT should be better than our current lot of hot hatchbacks (or even the Honda City).
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Old 5th January 2015, 18:22   #36
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Default Re: Desperately wanted: A Hot Hatch for the Indian enthusiast

I distinctly remembered this thread already existing on team-bhp, and a little prodding revealed this-

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...t-hatches.html (Do car makers in India lack courage? Where are the *true* Hot Hatches?)

Makes sense to merge the two ?
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Old 5th January 2015, 18:45   #37
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Default Re: Desperately wanted: A Hot Hatch for the Indian enthusiast

Dear Merc_lover666, looks like your prayers have been heard by the german gods.
Please read this.
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ml#post3616425 (Volkswagen India: The Way Forward)

Having said that, I am bit curious to know why Maruti would be on your mind in the first place. We already have the benchmarks in place like POLO GT TSI/TDI or PUNTO 90HP to put on more kit. Maruti is essentially a car maker who is cutting weight by removing essential steel. Swift SR looks good but i saw one dealer went overboard. Picture attached.
Attached Thumbnails
Desperately wanted: A Hot Hatch for the Indian enthusiast-10632849_834771996555116_7705846462914176368_n.jpg  

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Old 5th January 2015, 18:53   #38
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Default Re: Desperately wanted: A Hot Hatch for the Indian enthusiast

The question here, and in most other situations, is about money and the value for your money. If one is flush with funds and itching to blow it up and a gasket or two, then a huge variety of options are available.
If one is seeking to have good safe fun at a reasonable price then used Cedias and Fiestas, with remapped or Peted engines, are a great choice since they have the necessary ABS, airbags etc. Just my middle aged take on a young man's sport.
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Old 5th January 2015, 19:24   #39
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Thumbs down Re: Desperately Wanted: A Hot Hatch For The Indian Enthusiast.

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Originally Posted by 1100D View Post
Well doesn't both the companies you are referring to have already tried that route and failed mostly, the Telcoline first and then the Zenon, on the otherside of the fence, there was the fabulous Bolero-Camper and the Scorpio Getaway.

Anyway, this is off topic for a Hot-hatch thread
I beg to differ- just a little bit! The fabulous Bolero-Camper and the Scorpio-Getaway (and the Tata Xenon to some extent) have not taken off because of the reason below (My personal opinion). Back in 2013, I was searching for a Pickup or its desi variant of a 'UV with a loading bay' which I could buy. I have absolutely no use for the loading bay. I just loved the idea of owning a Pickup as does a certain age group of the country! (Lets face it- all those Hollywood movies have made us and the Generation Y corporate Yuppies lust for a Pickup). I had the following criteria

1- Should be good for rugged usage and should have a low-maintainance and easily-repairable engine
2- Should be butch and squat (as opposed to extended in length or too wide; solves the handling and Parking issues as well)
3- Should have the potential to be modded to make it look even more butch
4- Should be able to accommodate 4 people and have comfortable leg space in the second row and the second row should not have an 'upright seat'

The Tata Xenon only had the 2.2 litre Dicor engine and didn't fit the first criteria and it wasn't exactly butch or squat. The Scorpio having the 2.6 CRDe engine at that time which though was reasonably rugged (not as much as a DI though) wasn't butch or squat- but rather big, wide and handled like a boat!. That left me with the Bolero Camper Gold. I loved it. DI, IFS, Power Steering,
Butch, Squat and incredibly good looking. I could mod it to my heart's content with extra bells and whistles. Why did I not buy it then? Because of the 2nd Row Upright Seat and negligible legroom. It is very uncomfortable over long distances! If Mahindra can create 2 Thar's- one DI and one CRDe to appeal to two sets of customers, I reckon they can easily create 3 Bolero Camper Gold's as well; one in the current variant (DI) and the other two (DI and CRDe)- both which eat up a bit into the Loading bay but have seats which are inclined and have more legroom.

The latter two would draw the Corporate Yuppies in like a moth to fire and Mahindra would be laughing all the way to the bank. Infact, this would even solve another of Mahindra's problems; most people do not opt for a Thar because of it cant accommodate more than 2 passengers in comfort (the rear Bench type seating is very uncomfortable over long distances) as well as it being a soft top (security issues). The 2 Bolero Camper Gold's above would be proper 5 seater Hard Top's. A sure shot winner! Plus they can keep customers in the same showroom. The Thar wasn't for me due to passenger capacity, the Camper Gold had the aforesaid shortcoming- so I went for the Bolero. Someone else might decide to go for the Sumo Grande.

The Bolero DI Super for me ticked all the boxes apart from the main criteria of being a Pickup. It was just a UV. I am happy with it but every time I see a Bolero Camper Gold on the road, I wish for one!

Mahindra- if you are listening, please mod a Bolero Camper Gold (Adventure edition and all that jazz) to your heart's content as a market-survey exercise and get the junta's feedback and responses! I am sure you will be in for a pleasant surprise!

Last edited by rahul4321 : 5th January 2015 at 19:44. Reason: addition
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Old 5th January 2015, 20:04   #40
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Default Re: Desperately wanted: A Hot Hatch for the Indian enthusiast

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
The price difference between the 1.2L TSI & 1.8L TSI is a fraction of 'double the money'. In fact, some of that difference can be further negated by giving a 6-speed MT as an option (instead of the more expensive DSG).

VW already sells the Polo 1.8 TSI (EA888 motor) in other markets - Sample Link
I just comapred the prices of the 1.8TSi GTI Polo and the 1.2TSi Highline (both with DSG) available here. The price difference is north of 6000 euros. However, I am not sure if this is a fair comparison, since the GTI has more changes than just the engine. A better comparison is probably between 1.2TSi Octavia Ambition and 1.8TSi Octavia Ambition (both MT) which come with largely the same feature set (only other difference is the multi-link suspension on the 1.8TSi). The price difference is just above 4000 euros. With the way prcing goes in India, I can imagine the 1.8TSi Polo costing more than 10L easily. Even if a 1.8TSi Polo is priced within 2L of the 1.2TSi, how many people will go for it? Running costs (read FE) will be a major concern for most people buying hatches less than <10L and they will still not buy the 1.8TSi. I can even imagine the SAs telling people who want to buy the 1.8TSi Polo to go for 1.2TSi instead as it gives better mileage. I think even with a relatively small price difference, there will still be low demand, which will not justify bringing out a new variant.
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Old 5th January 2015, 20:22   #41
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Default Re: Desperately wanted: A Hot Hatch for the Indian enthusiast

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
The price difference between the 1.2L TSI & 1.8L TSI is a fraction of 'double the money'. In fact, some of that difference can be further negated by giving a 6-speed MT as an option (instead of the more expensive DSG).

VW already sells the Polo 1.8 TSI (EA888 motor) in other markets - Sample Link
The 1.8 tsi is 20 lacs+ on road in the UK GTO for both 6 spd and DSG...but yes, they can significantly de-content it maybe and sell it for less...
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Old 5th January 2015, 20:37   #42
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Default Re: Desperately wanted: A Hot Hatch for the Indian enthusiast

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Originally Posted by StarrySky View Post
I just comapred the prices of the 1.8TSi GTI Polo and the 1.2TSi Highline (both with DSG) available here. The price difference is north of 6000 euros. However, I am not sure if this is a fair comparison, since the GTI has more changes than just the engine. A better comparison is probably between 1.2TSi Octavia Ambition and 1.8TSi Octavia Ambition (both MT) which come with largely the same feature set (only other difference is the multi-link suspension on the 1.8TSi). The price difference is just above 4000 euros. With the way prcing goes in India, I can imagine the 1.8TSi Polo costing more than 10L easily. Even if a 1.8TSi Polo is priced within 2L of the 1.2TSi, how many people will go for it? Running costs (read FE) will be a major concern for most people buying hatches less than <10L and they will still not buy the 1.8TSi. I can even imagine the SAs telling people who want to buy the 1.8TSi Polo to go for 1.2TSi instead as it gives better mileage. I think even with a relatively small price difference, there will still be low demand, which will not justify bringing out a new variant.
You are forgetting a lot of things. Firstly, there is a subsidy for engines below 1.2 liter, so the change in price would be substantial.

Also, if the price rise is a meager 2 lakh, actually a lot of people will go for it. You're get a more refined, faster, more tractable engine, that is actually equally efficient.

What VW can certainly do to keep the price difference between the 1.8 and 1.2 low is also introduce a manual transmission for the 1.8 Polo.

However, considering that VW introduced the Polo GT in India with a 1.2 liter petrol, and that UK gets the GT badge on the 1.4 liter petrol, chances are our Polo GTi will have the 1.4 Liter engine.

Additionally, VW doesn't use the 1.8 Tsi in India, even on the larger Jetta. Chances are, they wouldn't on the polo either. Just the 1.4 will be called the GTi
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Old 5th January 2015, 21:13   #43
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Default Re: Desperately wanted: A Hot Hatch for the Indian enthusiast

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Originally Posted by prakhar1998 View Post
Also, if the price rise is a meager 2 lakh, actually a lot of people will go for it. You're get a more refined, faster, more tractable engine, that is actually equally efficient.
2L price hike for an 8L car is by no means meagre. Even with much lesser price hike, neither 1.4 Punto nor 1.6 petrol Polo have found too many fans in India. And even by VAG's own admission (figures from their website) the 1.8TSi is not as efficient as the 1.2TSi on the same car.

Like member Blue_Bird mentioned earlier in this thread, 1.8TSi Polo (if it is launched) will be a car for "True enthusiasts and the ones who can afford a second car. (Probably whose first car is above 20L and upwards)".

Actually, looking at your signature, you fall exactly into that group
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Old 5th January 2015, 21:20   #44
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Default Re: Desperately wanted: A Hot Hatch for the Indian enthusiast

In my opinion, we are not ready for such cars yet, mentally! What did we do for Octavia RS? Ford Fiesta 1.6S? Coopers? Linea T-Jets?

We are still a developing nation, and where are the roads? Our roads are overpopulated even for sedate speeds methinks.

Last edited by rangarx : 5th January 2015 at 21:26.
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Old 5th January 2015, 21:59   #45
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Default Re: Desperately wanted: A Hot Hatch for the Indian enthusiast

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Originally Posted by rangarx View Post
In my opinion, we are not ready for such cars yet, mentally! What did we do for Octavia RS? Ford Fiesta 1.6S? Coopers? Linea T-Jets?

We are still a developing nation, and where are the roads? Our roads are overpopulated even for sedate speeds methinks.
Well, i agree with your thoughts, still their are umpteen no. of times , especially on highways when one feels lack of power, on good stretches and sometimes a person is in a mood to rev hard and enjoy the "my fast car" feel.

I am one of those who go through this feeling, driven almost every hatch available below 8 lac mark and believe me, there is no single hot hatch available that gives that awesome feel. My last "Wow" encounter with a praiseworthy machine was a Linea Tjet and i still remember that feeling.

Dear car manufacturers i have a question if you are reading this forum, cant you come up with a car which is indeed a hot hatch in terms of engine performance, bhp and torque values and has less of those cheap gimmicks which are used to sell a vehicle in india aka as '' bluetooth, touch screen HU, chrome grills, chrome everything. if only you can come up with basic controls ,a powerful engine and necessary safety features as per todays standards.

I eagerly await the Abarth but deep down i know that its going to be supremely expensive with less A.S.S. support, super expensive and rarely available spares. I hope around 2022/2023 shall we witness such hot hatches, until then we have to bear el cheapo sticker jobs from the likes of Maruti's and Toyota's and call them the "sports model'
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