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Old 6th January 2015, 12:48   #61
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Default Re: Desperately wanted: A Hot Hatch for the Indian enthusiast

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Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
[b][u]

Now look at the complete picture. Many times I have seen that the package is not full. There will be that one something in the car, something that you don't want. In the GT TDI, it's the biege. There are many such examples: 1. Tire size will be one width smaller than actually required to deliver snapshot handling (175 section instead of 185). 2. Alloy wheel will be silver painted instead of brushed aluminum finish or black. 3. Alloy wheel design will be completely out of sync with the theme of the car. 4. Alloy wheel nuts will not be capped, there will be green permanent pen marks on them, showing that they were torqued on the assembly line. The list will be endless. This is the problem definition. How to decide? What to benchmark? Let me know your answer!

The window for a real hot hatch in India is wide open. I wish that some good cars occupy this space soon.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
Dear Behram, you would have checked out the pre facelift GT TDI. visit the showroom again, and the beige is gone. Now, I feel that the engine gearbox are a combo that matter the most since they are more or less fixed and cant be changed. You could only go in for a remap and improve the mid range. Suspension is another component which is slightly harder to fix but still doable with some cost. same for air intake and exhaust. but the other bits are just cosmetic, and can be customised to one's taste at minimal cost. dont like the beige fabric, just replace that part with red (a friend has done so), while retaining the original seat shape. Dont like the alloys, buy new ones to your taste, whether hyper silver or matt black or anthracite or black with silver accents. tyres are also easily upgraded. wheel nut caps are easily available. your showroom can give them.

when tastes are so diverse and people want to express their individuality through the car, it is best for the manufacturer to give a 'SAFE' offend none look. beyond that people will customise it according to what they want. Believe me, we have a group on which there are 27 GT TSIs, and each one is unique in their own respect.

On the other hand, the Honda city you've bought is a fabulous car in 1.5 EXI guise also. the vtec would have been great fun. Another give away is that the vtec had dual exhausts.

I was really keen on the SRV in 2007. was disappointed when they did not offer the 1.8 l engine they had in optra. My thinking is that Polo GTI may not make it, but my wishlist has the the Golf with 180 bhp engine.Then again, you have the Octavia with the same engine which weighs almost the same. the dynamics would be similar. So no point in getting a hatch into India, according to the manufacturers. To get real hot hatches, one has to look north of 20 lacs.

Last edited by lalittalwar : 6th January 2015 at 12:55. Reason: added more comments
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Old 6th January 2015, 13:21   #62
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Default Re: Desperately wanted: A Hot Hatch for the Indian enthusiast

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Originally Posted by spyder_p8 View Post
Dear Merc_lover666, looks like your prayers have been heard by the german gods.
Please read this.
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ml#post3616425 (Volkswagen India: The Way Forward)

Having said that, I am bit curious to know why Maruti would be on your mind in the first place. We already have the benchmarks in place like POLO GT TSI/TDI or PUNTO 90HP to put on more kit. Maruti is essentially a car maker who is cutting weight by removing essential steel. Swift SR looks good but i saw one dealer went overboard. Picture attached.
Maybe the dealer went overboard but a 4wd Swift does exist in Europe.
The concept of a hot hatch I guess will take time to enter to the Indian Junta.

Last edited by rakesh_r : 6th January 2015 at 13:23.
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Old 6th January 2015, 15:01   #63
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Default Re: Desperately wanted: A Hot Hatch for the Indian enthusiast

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Originally Posted by suhaas307 View Post
^^ This is excellent news. I had booked a GT TSI a few months ago but cancelled it after I saw an advertisement in the paper celebrating the Polo's 5th Year Anniversary. I did not want a 5 year old car that's not far off from being replaced.
Probably the first time a celebration advt. resulted in a booking cancellation

Polo normally takes around 7-8 years to get a generation refresh, so fifth year is not so bad. But yes, it will be great if they get the 1.4 TSI/140ps Blue GT to India.
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Old 6th January 2015, 15:44   #64
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Default Re: Desperately Wanted: A Hot Hatch For The Indian Enthusiast.

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Originally Posted by rahul4321 View Post
If Mahindra can create 2 Thars, a DI and a CRDe to appeal to two sets of customers, I reckon they can easily create 3 Bolero Campers as well. Many people do not opt for a Thar because it can't accommodate more than 2 passengers in comfort as well as it being a soft top. The 3 Bolero Campers would be proper 5 seater hard tops. A sure shot winner!
Dear Rahul4321 - hello there! and many thanks for your quote above. What did you think Thar was derived out of? It is actually "what you have quoted above", with a reduced wheelbase, made to look fabulous, irresistible and timeless, that's all!

Oh come on now, HaHaHa! .

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
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Old 6th January 2015, 15:50   #65
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Default Re: Desperately Wanted: A Hot Hatch For The Indian Enthusiast.

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Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
Dear Rahul4321 - hello there! and many thanks for your quote above. What did you think Thar was derived out of? It is actually "what you have quoted above", with a reduced wheelbase, made to look fabulous, irresistible and timeless, that's all!

Oh come on now, HaHaHa! .

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
Point taken sir! But if M&M can create a completely new Thar from the aforesaid base vehicle; then hopefully just making the small change I wish for to the base vehicle should not be too hard for them.
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Old 6th January 2015, 21:25   #66
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Default Re: Desperately wanted: A Hot Hatch for the Indian enthusiast

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Oh God, no!!! The 1.4L K-Series is far from an enthusiasts motor. It makes merely 94 BHP & has a flat mid-range.
I'd agree it's not a HOT motor per se, but I'm sure it's more capable than the numbers in the Ertiga state of tune suggest, plus the Swift chassis is much more agile and a far better handler than its bigger stablemate.

Even assuming the numbers stay the same, given the state of our roads which are far from being autobahns (if ever), most Indian hot-hatch customers will settle for driveability over absolute numbers, IF Maruti manages to tune the motor for explosive low/mid range (where Indian cars are driven 99% of their lifetime) and 'acceptable' top end performance.

Last edited by Chetan_Rao : 6th January 2015 at 21:26.
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Old 6th January 2015, 22:40   #67
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Default Re: Desperately wanted: A Hot Hatch for the Indian enthusiast

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Originally Posted by rohanjf View Post
But current Polo GT TDI is still a "small car" by government's definition.
This was from the earlier GT-TDI official review

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/offici...al-review.html (Volkswagen Polo 1.6L GT TDI : Official Review)

"The GT TDI is India's most expensive B2 segment hatchback and is sold in 1 variant only. Due to its 1.6L engine size, the GT TDI attracts a whopping excise duty of 27% (the same as a VW Passat). The 1.2L Polos, on the other hand, pay merely 12% excise to the government. This additional 15% tax burden of the GT TDI results in an extra cost of nearly 1 lakh rupees."

But, will take a look though, when Im really planning on that. Maybe 6 months away.
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Old 6th January 2015, 23:56   #68
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Default Re: Desperately wanted: A Hot Hatch for the Indian enthusiast

3 cars which all of us would love to have a go in, and which they can actually launch without much trouble


1. Polo 1.8 TSi with a 6 speed manual gearbox

2. Punto TJet, tuned right to 160hp

and as a 'practical' hot hatch...
3. Jazz with the 1.5 iVTEC (don't think the Civic's 1.8 iVTEC can be accommodated)



It is sheer complacency on the manufacturers' part that the casual folk can get away with calling the likes of Swift a sports car, while the enthusiast has to spend upwards of 20L for a decent dose of power and fun.

Last edited by Shreyans_Jain : 6th January 2015 at 23:57.
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Old 6th January 2015, 23:58   #69
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Default Re: Desperately wanted: A Hot Hatch for the Indian enthusiast

It is only FIAT that has the courage to do this once again after the Palio GTX, Market or no market for the car. Only if they were doing well in this market we would have had the HOT HATCH at least 4 years back from them.

BTW Palio 1.6 GTX was a hot hatch of its times, it did not sell and many made fun of its impracticality, people like us still bought it, yet it failed. Now the VW Polo GTI twins are doing well not just because people like us are buying it [we are still a minority by far], its because the perception of spending big money on small cars is normal now and quality product has a place in the mindset even though our market is strongly value driven, yet a FIAT product competing the VW GTI twins even if better will still fail, because FIAT is looked down upon as a brand and VW is some what aspirational in the minds of the lay man [read non-enthusiast].
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Old 7th January 2015, 00:35   #70
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Default Re: Desperately wanted: A Hot Hatch for the Indian enthusiast

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Originally Posted by vinya_jag View Post
This was from the earlier GT-TDI official review

This additional 15% tax burden of the GT TDI results in an extra cost of nearly 1 lakh rupees."

But, will take a look though, when Im really planning on that. Maybe 6 months away.
The GT TDI attracts lesser excise duty after the engine was downsized to 1.5L in 2014. Unfortunately, VW pocketed all the excise duty benefits themselves without passing it onto the customer.

In other words, VW hiked the prices of GT TDI after the facelift by a whopping 84K

Last edited by theredliner : 7th January 2015 at 00:36.
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Old 7th January 2015, 00:43   #71
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Default Re: Desperately wanted: A Hot Hatch for the Indian enthusiast

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Originally Posted by theredliner View Post
The GT TDI attracts lesser excise duty after the engine was downsized to 1.5L in 2014. Unfortunately, VW pocketed all the excise duty benefits themselves without passing it onto the customer.

In other words, VW hiked the prices of GT TDI after the facelift by a whopping 84K
That too, for reduced performance.
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Old 7th January 2015, 12:05   #72
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Default Re: Desperately wanted: A Hot Hatch for the Indian enthusiast

Excellent thread. I wish there were more choices than just one Polo TSI. But our Indian ground realities are very different. We all know Polo TSI can decimate Elite i20 in performance hopelessly. But put them next to each other and what would you buy? Forget average buyer who would close his eyes and buy Elite because it costs less, is more spacious, is much more stylish and is from a brand which is way above VW in no. of dealers and a.s.s. Now, an enthusiast also has to listen to his wife and/or parents. What would they say? Whaaat? 10 lakhs for a hatch? Ok, it goes faster but where are the roads? How much of driving is out in open and how much through the inner-city crawl? It for these reasons that few manufacturers step forward.
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Old 7th January 2015, 12:21   #73
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Default Re: Desperately wanted: A Hot Hatch for the Indian enthusiast

The biggest part of Hot hatch puzzle is about profits.
The numbers will be so low to not justify having a assembly line and the moment mass production is ruled out, cost will shoot up.

There will be enthusiasts with sufficient cash to blow but in a developing economy, rising aspirations will need good brand values to satisfy the sense of self.
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Old 7th January 2015, 12:24   #74
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Default Re: Desperately wanted: A Hot Hatch for the Indian enthusiast

I would give up all my luxury cars,buy the Golf GTI and have a whole load of cash in other investments if only Volkswagen would bring the Golf GTI to our shores!

A dream come true for Indian enthusiasts would be to have a proper tight and fast crossover like a GLA45 AMG from mainstream manufacturers like Volkswagen at around 15L.I know I am dreaming but hopefully one day our country will get there and hopefully there is enough of oil to burn
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Old 7th January 2015, 12:56   #75
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Default Re: Desperately wanted: A Hot Hatch for the Indian enthusiast

Even more desperately wanted (in that order) :

1) Reduction of excise duty of cars with sub 4 meter frame with engine capacity upto 1.5L (diesel) & 1.4L (petrol) atleast. Some benefit must be given for driving the only cars suitable for our half-roads.

2) Rebates must be given further for ARAI-tested mileage of cars which are a certain %age above cumulative average fuel consumption of models in this country, say 20%? Hatches with a lighter kerb weight will be more efficient than the similar engine big cars. I'm saying this only because the government has been quite vocal in support of fuel conservation.

3) Most important : Roads, period. I really don't think in a country where 99% do city driving, that one needs over-ly powerful engines at all. Even enthusiasts cant dream of anything >70kmph in city. Safety is first isn't it? Anything beyond that number in city will inevitably lead to a heart-in-mouth situation. With the potholes, wire/drain diggings, unscientific speed breakers, jaywalkers, poor signage etc etc.. you are better off finding fun in slow.

4) Rules, there are none in effect as of now. Sure when it came to removal of sun-film they cracked it down in no time. Lane changing every 2 seconds, overspeeding, jumping signals, bump and runs? No sir its your fault for not being "mindful" of rash drivers. Absolutely no legal support there except when cops have to fulfil monthly targets.

Points 1 & 2 are essential for companies to even consider producing better engines for hatches because otherwise with a slender price difference Indian people might jump straight to a entry sedan or even a D segmenter. The difference of elongated metal does matter to most. In summary, India isn't meant for enthusiasts as of now. Future, big maybe. Being safe given our manic road conditions is the bigger need of the hour.

Last edited by dark.knight : 7th January 2015 at 13:01.
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