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Old 15th January 2015, 10:33   #91
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Default Re: 2015: The updated Innova and Fortuner (now with a 2.5L variant)

When I bought the Innova dual airbags were standard only on V model in 2013. If I had option of ABS and dual airbags on the lowest model with rear AC I would have bought that. Everything else like alloys,fogs, touch screen, reverse cam, ACC etc doesn't matter to me.
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Old 15th January 2015, 12:32   #92
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Default Re: 2015: The updated Innova and Fortuner (now with a 2.5L variant)

I think Toyota strategy is profit maximization.In competitive segments, they need to add features with reduced margins.Hence, they might find it difficult to survive with their strategy.

Their experiment with hatch back and C1 sedan (Liva & Etios) was a disaster.Interiors are bare minimum with no features. Because if they add features to these cars, then the pricing will be exorbitant. The one good thing for Toyota from this experiment was, because of their reliability their Etios twins have challenged Tata dominance in fleet segment and added to Toyota volume.

So they will be happy in continuing their dominance in limited segments (Innova, Fortuner, Corolla etc.) giving cosmetic upgrades and hiking prices. Looking at the competition they would not be challenged in this segment at least for next few years.
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Old 15th January 2015, 22:14   #93
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Default 2015: The updated Innova and Fortuner (now with a 2.5L variant)

From what i understand if the engine and transmission parts are assembled in india, then the customs duty on a CKD imported car is 10%. But if the engine and transmission are imported pre assembled then the import duty on ckd is 30%.

Apart from improving the efficiency of the fortuner, the 2.5 engine could be case of "assembled in india" as well, couldn't it?

With the 2.5L fortuner now coming with the trd sportivo kit, it coul be that toyota is playing a margin game. Why not just delete the kit and sell the car for a couple lakhs less?

Last edited by acidkill : 15th January 2015 at 22:21.
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Old 17th January 2015, 00:45   #94
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Default Re: 2015: The updated Innova and Fortuner (now with a 2.5L variant)

Quote:
Originally Posted by hondadude View Post
As per the specifications VSC is available only in 4x4 models
Not only VSC even EBD & BA are available only in 4x4. 4x2 flavors (Both 3.0L & 2.5L) doesn't come with EBD & BA. Its just ABS for these models.
I don't believe this is a mistake from whomever updated the website, if so they would have rectified it during the recent update.

Have attached the specifications page screen shot from Toyota India website before and after 4x4 AT & 2.5L Launch
Toyota Customer care refused to confirm the same over the mail, they were insisting for a telephonic conversation.
Most of the sales executives are not aware of it and they are 'assuming' that EBD & BA are available on 4x2 versions as well.
Attached Thumbnails
2015: The updated Innova and Fortuner (now with a 2.5L variant)-fort.jpg  

2015: The updated Innova and Fortuner (now with a 2.5L variant)-fortnew.jpg  

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Old 17th January 2015, 06:46   #95
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Default Re: 2015: The updated Innova and Fortuner (now with a 2.5L variant)

Some more pictures from AutocarIndia.

New shade - Bronze Mica Metallic - looks quite good.
2015: The updated Innova and Fortuner (now with a 2.5L variant)-0_0_860_http172.17.115.18082galleries20150115125839_f1.jpg
2015: The updated Innova and Fortuner (now with a 2.5L variant)-0_0_860_http172.17.115.18082galleries20150115125908_f2.jpg

See Mitsubishi, all black is so much better!
2015: The updated Innova and Fortuner (now with a 2.5L variant)-0_0_860_http172.17.115.18082galleries20150115125939_fortx.jpg
2015: The updated Innova and Fortuner (now with a 2.5L variant)-0_0_860_http172.17.115.18082galleries20150115125949_f12.jpg
2015: The updated Innova and Fortuner (now with a 2.5L variant)-0_0_860_http172.17.115.18082galleries20150115125953_f9.jpg
2015: The updated Innova and Fortuner (now with a 2.5L variant)-0_0_860_http172.17.115.18082galleries20150115010004_f14.jpg

Source
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Old 17th January 2015, 17:18   #96
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Default Re: 2015: The updated Innova and Fortuner (now with a 2.5L variant)

Few pics from the dealership when I went to service a two year old 4*2 AT. (Used in the comparo)

Left: New Fortuner with chrome sorrounds for the fogs. Right: Old
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Left: New Fortuner without side claddings. Right: Old
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New alloy wheel finish
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Left: New Fortuner with black interiors. Right: Old.
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Left: New Steering wheel. Right: Old
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New Interior trim. Black with white stiching feels upmarket compared to the older beige leather.
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What I love about the new Fortuner?

1. Trim to trim - the new car seem to be around 3.x lakhs more than the above car which is less than two years old. Good for resale value then.
2. All black interiors feel much better than the older scheme IMO. A differentiator compared to the Innova as well.

Now, for a few negatives -

1. 34L+ OTR for the 4*4 AT in Bangalore. Feels too much. And I'm not even talking of the 2.5L variant pricing.
2. Wheel wells dont seem to have any insulation. Is an eyesore now that the alloys are grey finish.

(Below features I miss in the 33L Fortuner AT, compared to our 9L Hyundai Xcent AT. )
3. No true keyless entry still!
4. No foldable keyfob either.
5. No start-stop button.
6. No auto-dimming IRVMs.
7. Doesn't look like the ORVMs auto fold when the car is locked. Electric fold is present though. Or is it my ignorance?
8. Reverse parking sensors.
9. Reverse camera is present, but the display on the headunit is nowhere close to the crisp display on the Hyundai ECM IRVM.
10. Manual mode for the AT. Although the torque more than makes up for it, I sometimes wish if I could hold the gears.

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As you can see, thats quite a LOT of features missing on a vehicle costing almost 4 times the price! Sad to see the same feature list carried forward to the new Fortuner with minimal additions.


PS - I'm not a Fortuner owner. The above truck belongs to a friend who is currently abroad, and hence I keep it running once in a while. Please correct me if any of the above info is wrong.
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Old 17th January 2015, 18:11   #97
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Post Re: 2015: The updated Innova and Fortuner (now with a 2.5L variant)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
7. Doesn't look like the ORVMs auto fold when the car is locked. Electric fold is present though. Or is it my ignorance?
8. Reverse parking sensors.
9. Reverse camera is present, but the display on the headunit is nowhere close to the crisp display on the Hyundai ECM IRVM.
10. Manual mode for the AT. Although the torque more than makes up for it, I sometimes wish if I could hold the gears.

As you can see, thats quite a LOT of features missing on a vehicle costing almost 4 times the price! Sad to see the same feature list carried forward to the new Fortuner with minimal additions.
Autofold is offered as an accessory.

In Innova as well the trims which come with reverse parking sensors (GX) don't have reversing camera where as the trims which come with reversing camera (VX and ZX) don't come with reverse parking sensors. I don't know why Toyota cannot offer both in the same vehicle.

It is after all a truck with impeccable offroading capabilities (without any noteworthy competition yet) which should not be compared to a humble Hyundai compact sub-4m sedan. You want features stay away from Toyota (any and all Toyotas), period.
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Old 17th January 2015, 18:50   #98
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Default Re: 2015: The updated Innova and Fortuner (now with a 2.5L variant)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mroptimist View Post
It is after all a truck with impeccable offroading capabilities (without any noteworthy competition yet) which should not be compared to a humble Hyundai compact sub-4m sedan. You want features stay away from Toyota (any and all Toyotas), period.
I find the statement about staying away from Toyota if one wants features quite bizarre. If they operated with the same snooty attitude globally as they do here, they'd be a bit player in the car market. If I'm spending north of 30 lakhs, I want features and reliability. I have always found the level of kit, especially safety kit, in their cars, for the money they charge, sorely lacking. It's the reason I have never bought a Toyota.

This market has a way of teaching manufacturers a lesson -- Honda also thought they were a premium carmaker at one time.

Last edited by StarScream : 17th January 2015 at 18:53.
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Old 17th January 2015, 19:15   #99
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Post Re: 2015: The updated Innova and Fortuner (now with a 2.5L variant)

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Originally Posted by StarScream View Post
I find the statement about staying away from Toyota if one wants features quite bizarre. If they operated with the same snooty attitude globally as they do here, they'd be a bit player in the car market. If I'm spending north of 30 lakhs, I want features and reliability. I have always found the level of kit, especially safety kit, in their cars, for the money they charge, sorely lacking. It's the reason I have never bought a Toyota.

This market has a way of teaching manufacturers a lesson -- Honda also thought they were a premium carmaker at one time.
Honda diluted their premium image by lowering quality and that is a topic for debate at some other thread.

Coming back to this thread. Toyota has offered lesser kit in all the markets relative to competition there. Don't compare Toyota's India offering with Toyota's global offering even for that matter any other manufacturer be it Suzuki, Honda or even Hyundai and the Germans as well. With respect to competition the feature level has gone-up. The only way Toyota would offer extra kit would be if competition was up to it.

Please name on more hardcore offroader from another manufacturer which is better than Fortuner (SantaFe is softroader and is costlier than Fortuner). There is none.

Unless the competition heats up Toyota would continue to milk the current crop of successful cars in it's line-up (viz Corolla Altis, Innova & Fortuner).

Look at Etios, they have continuously improved the features and made safety features a standard thanks to competition. If Etios also flew like other Toyotas, Toyota would not have improved the kit on offer.

When it comes to whether you should or should not buy is a different topic altogether. It's a matter of personal choice and I respect your choice. Who buys or stays away is not Toyota's headache.

And until and unless our market matures things are not going to change much. We love tin cans, give a damn to safety (it is unfortunately the least important thing in a new car buying decision) and successful manufacturers are feeding our love for fuel efficiency.
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Old 17th January 2015, 20:35   #100
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Default Re: 2015: The updated Innova and Fortuner (now with a 2.5L variant)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mroptimist View Post
Coming back to this thread. Toyota has offered lesser kit in all the markets relative to competition there.
I know about the U.S. market and I can assure you Toyota competes nail for nail and dollar for dollar with the likes of Honda and Hyundai. Also a Corolla roughly stays at the same price from generation to generation, even though they have to offer more. I understand we aren't anywhere close to the U.S. market but that doesn't stop other manufacturers from offering value (like Hyundai for example, I refer to the Elantra here.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mroptimist View Post
Don't compare Toyota's India offering with Toyota's global offering even for that matter any other manufacturer be it Suzuki, Honda or even Hyundai and the Germans as well. With respect to competition the feature level has gone-up. The only way Toyota would offer extra kit would be if competition was up to it.
Why shouldn't I compare? The Elantra and even the Jetta in India is very close to variants offerred internationally.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mroptimist View Post
Please name on more hardcore offroader from another manufacturer which is better than Fortuner (SantaFe is softroader and is costlier than Fortuner). There is none.
There is none, I agree. But nowhere have I said Toyota should reduce prices. Im just saying give a better kitted product for that money. On a side note, I know that 18 lakhs Toyota was making decent money. The demand was so high that they raised prices and today they probably make a 40%-50% margin on the Fortuner.

And yes the Santa Fe is more expensive (marginally so) and is a softroader. But look at it another way, it is close in price to the Fortunet as a CBU with 100% duty and it is better kitted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mroptimist View Post
Unless the competition heats up Toyota would continue to milk the current crop of successful cars in it's line-up (viz Corolla Altis, Innova & Fortuner).
That I agree with: milk is the right word. Usurious is another.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mroptimist View Post
And until and unless our market matures things are not going to change much. We love tin cans, give a damn to safety (it is unfortunately the least important thing in a new car buying decision) and successful manufacturers are feeding our love for fuel efficiency.
True but it doesn't take away from the fact that for that money Toyota can do better, especially for products like the Corolla and the Fortuner.
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Old 17th January 2015, 21:33   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StarScream View Post

Why shouldn't I compare? The Elantra and even the Jetta in India is very close to variants offerred internationally.

And yes the Santa Fe is more expensive (marginally so) and is a softroader. But look at it another way, it is close in price to the Fortunet as a CBU with 100% duty and it is better kitted.



That I agree with: milk is the right word. Usurious is another.



True but it doesn't take away from the fact that for that money Toyota can do better, especially for products like the Corolla and the Fortuner.
Small correction SantaFe was a CBU, the new generation is a CKD. Its not selling for two reasons: it's high price and Hyundai not willing to sell.

As a market leader in U.S Toyota defends it's territory more vigorously. In India they mainly focus on profit maximisation. I am not defending them, merely stating a fact.

I would love Toyota to offer more products at much more affordable prices.

In Polo thread somebody compared Indian Polo with European offering and noted some 10 or so features missing in Indian version. I think same will be true for other cars, lots of small features missing.
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Old 17th January 2015, 23:22   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mroptimist View Post

It is after all a truck with impeccable offroading capabilities (without any noteworthy competition yet) which should not be compared to a humble Hyundai compact sub-4m sedan. You want features stay away from Toyota (any and all Toyotas), period.
True. But that's the whole point. It's kind of shocking when a humble sub 4m sedan has so many useful features packed in, when compared to this expensive SUV.

The reversing camera for example is a delight to use in the humble Hyundai. The one provided by Toyota feels so aftermarket. Clarity is very poor and their is no sensor integration as well. The key looks out of place in the premium hatchback segment, forget a premium truck.

Not only are the number of features less, but the sheer quality feel is missing as well. That's not fair!
Quote:
Originally Posted by mroptimist View Post
I would love Toyota to offer more products at much more affordable prices.
As you said- it's the lack of competition more than anything else. I believe Hyundai missed a trick by not launching the longer wheelbase version. And Mitsubishi is having commitment issues as always!
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Old 18th January 2015, 02:42   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mroptimist View Post
I would love Toyota to offer more products at much more affordable prices.

In Polo thread somebody compared Indian Polo with European offering and noted some 10 or so features missing in Indian version. I think same will be true for other cars, lots of small features missing.

I'm not an economy grad but in layman terms the fact remains that our government is so greedy and wants a huge profit chunk out of all things imported making things worse coupled with the companies chasing their own numbers game. And then what with these Toyota guys taking the greed to an all new level, things surely look bleak for the poor customer who has to pay the brunt of it all. And then some....
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Old 18th January 2015, 13:20   #104
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Default Re: 2015: The updated Innova and Fortuner (now with a 2.5L variant)

Mod Note: Post edited. Do NOT post in a rude tone on Team-BHP. Keep it polite, keep it clean.

Quote:
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You want features stay away from Toyota (any and all Toyotas), period.
Toyota is a mass market car , not a premium brand some would like to think. If Toyota shows this kind of attitude globally, it would pay the price. Already, Hyundai is snapping at its heels. I fully agree with crazydriver. If a tiny Xcent and i'm sure even Grand i10 can have all the modern conveniences, what is stopping Toyota from giving us those? They are not doing charity and they are already charging huge amounts. They might as well charge some more and give those features.

But, in the end I agree with one thing that Fortuner has no competition. Most SUVs today look like grown hacthbacks and this stupid thing was started by Germans I think. Why couldn't they give Americans what they wanted, a big butch square SUV like Japs do with LCs and Pajeros and Patrols and Troopers. We have Endeavour which in present form is too long and not as high as Fort , plus seating is very low, almost like sitting in the floor. MUL is busy as always launching hundred hatchbacks and Hyundai's Santa Fe again looks like overgrown hatch.

Last edited by GTO : 19th January 2015 at 14:59. Reason: Do NOT post in a rude tone on Team-BHP
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Old 18th January 2015, 15:23   #105
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Post Re: 2015: The updated Innova and Fortuner (now with a 2.5L variant)

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But, in the end I agree with one thing that Fortuner has no competition. Most SUVs today look like grown hacthbacks and this stupid thing was started by Germans I think. Why couldn't they give Americans what they wanted, a big butch square SUV like Japs do with LCs and Pajeros and Patrols and Troopers. We have Endeavour which in present form is too long and not as high as Fort , plus seating is very low, almost like sitting in the floor. MUL is busy as always launching hundred hatchbacks and Hyundai's Santa Fe again looks like overgrown hatch.
You got me wrong. What I wanted to convey was if for a person features are the only important thing they should stay away from Toyota. Toyota is the most miser manufacturer in that regard globally. Fortuner is less kitted in all the markets compared to that market everywhere.

Let us look at it this way. Who faced maruti to offer more features, it was Hyundai. Competition from Hyundai mainly forced maruti to offer more features in their cars.

Now who is forcing Toyota to offer more features in Innova and Fortuner. You know the answer for that. Nobody. Unless some manufacturer with formidable after sales like Maruti or Hyundai ups the ante Toyota will continue to behave arrogantly the way they are doing right now.

Now would you not agree with me?

Don't confuse Toyota's arrogance with mine. I am not arrogant Toyota is. I would love to see competition forcing Toyota on their knees. It's a win win for all consumers.
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