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Old 21st June 2016, 08:59   #106
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Default Re: The Pelican - Tata Motors' new small car based on the Nano

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Originally Posted by im_srini View Post
would having the engine at the rear & having to pipe the manifold vacuum all the way to the front of the car, where the master cylinder is situated, have played any part in the decision at all ?
The advantages of a rear engine layout (non-assisted steering, thinner tyres at the front, simpler steering mechanism without drive-shafts etc) should have out-weighed the cost / packaging disadvantage of providing piping for the cooling system and vacuum across the length of the car.

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Originally Posted by shashanka View Post
This would seem to be a minor issue - why not shift the master cylinder/Booster to the aft in the engine bay & let the hydraulics do all the pr. transmission to wherever needed. After all how much space would it take up, if they are already plonking in a larger engine.
Space-wise, I don't think there would have been any issue. But integrated master cylinder-booster is a standardized solution used across millions of vehicles. As im_srini pointed out, using a new design just for the Nano would have unnecessarily increased the cost and effort of development. It is easier and cheaper to provide piping to carry the vacuum.

The pedal - master cylinder - booster linkage is a simple mechanical one. Disturbing this packaging unnecessarily increases complexity. That is why the booster / TMC shifts its positions in the engine bay even between LHD and RHD variants of the same car.

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Originally Posted by im_srini View Post
Yes, space wouldn't be an issue, however the cost would be.
True.
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Old 7th July 2016, 21:47   #107
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Default Re: The Pelican - Tata Motors' new small car based on the Nano

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I did not work on the Nano project myself, so these are just my assumptions as an R&D engineer who worked on brake system development for a competitor.
...
This is probably what happened. I may be wrong, and since I don't know better, cannot put across any more useful points for a debate!
First of all, apologies for the looong delay. Was off the grid.
My headscratching has to do with allocation of resources. My reasoning says that in a car like the Nano (which should brake fine without a booster), the money allocated for a booster would be more effectively spent elsewhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by im_srini View Post
Yes, space wouldn't be an issue, however the cost would be.

Looking at Viju's walk-through of the thought process...

The cost of each component is factored in at the design & engineering phases itself.
If we go by the solution outlined, you'd need to have :
A) A cylinder at the front which is actuated by the brake pedal
B) A pipe to carry this fluid pressure to the actual master cylinder ( & booster ) at the rear of the car
C) From that master cylinder, four pipes leading to the 4 brake cylinders in the car

The solution appears a tad too complicated considering the simplistic nature of the car.
In addition, there is the added failure mode due to the extra hydraulic connection.
I'm not an automotive engineer, but it appears to me that it would be simpler to use a metal tube to carry the manifold vacuum from the engine-bay at the rear to the firewall at the front where the master-cylinder is situated in a conventional fashion.
To keep costs low, one might even use the master-cylinder from the M-800 - in contrast to designing & using a unique part ( master-cylinder actuated by hydraulic pressure ) just for the Nano.
.
The brake system needs two independent circuits. Which means both circuits will need its own booster. Easily done in a tandem, with the servo acting on the pushrod. Removing the booster to the rear will make for a very interesting (and complex/costly) design.

Regards
Sutripta

Last edited by Gannu_1 : 9th July 2016 at 10:19. Reason: Corrected MC > booster. Thanks!
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Old 8th July 2016, 08:30   #108
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Default Re: The Pelican - Tata Motors' new small car based on the Nano

Here's my wishlist for the Pelican.

Real Hybrid Technology - How about retaining the current RWD setup, and using electric motors on the front wheels? Regenerative braking can be used to charge the batteries, and the petrol engine could be disconnected entirely in traffic, or run at a constant, efficient speed to charge the batteries. The batteries if placed under the floor would also aid in lowering the CG.

Classy Interiors: A real hybrid vehicle would not come cheap. Interiors should be similar quality as the Zest/Tiago at least, if not better. I really wouldn't mind paying more for a much better equipped and compact city car.

Touchscreen Infotainment: Renault Kwid shows the way forward in this regard. With all of us using touchscreens for years now, why is this tech still only available as a luxury item? A standardised Android or Windows UI would be awesome, instead of the weird custom stuff that's different for each car. It should also take a dedicated SIM card, for issuing remote commands like pre-cooling the car and for locatiing it. Tata has their own network, so this should not be an issue at all.
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Old 8th July 2016, 11:25   #109
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Default Re: The Pelican - Tata Motors' new small car based on the Nano

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Originally Posted by vivekgk View Post
Here's my wishlist for the Pelican.

Real Hybrid Technology - How about retaining the current RWD setup, and using electric motors on the front wheels? Regenerative braking can be used to charge the batteries, and the petrol engine could be disconnected entirely in traffic, or run at a constant, efficient speed to charge the batteries. The batteries if placed under the floor would also aid in lowering the CG.

Classy Interiors: A real hybrid vehicle would not come cheap. Interiors should be similar quality as the Zest/Tiago at least, if not better. I really wouldn't mind paying more for a much better equipped and compact city car.

Touchscreen Infotainment: Renault Kwid shows the way forward in this regard. With all of us using touchscreens for years now, why is this tech still only available as a luxury item? A standardised Android or Windows UI would be awesome, instead of the weird custom stuff that's different for each car. It should also take a dedicated SIM card, for issuing remote commands like pre-cooling the car and for locatiing it. Tata has their own network, so this should not be an issue at all.
All this for an entry-level city run-about - the after-market hybrid specialists (Altigreen Propulsion Labs, http://www.autocarindia.com/auto-new...ve-402506.aspx) will probably have the market cornered by then. Not to mention the added weight of additional batteries & electric drive motors on the front wheels!
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Old 9th July 2016, 05:14   #110
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Default Re: The Pelican - Tata Motors' new small car based on the Nano

Right now, I have a Nano 2012 model that's just out of it's 4 year extended warranty. Last week, I took it to the TASC for correcting an issue with sharp pulling to the right and a grinding noise from the brakes. It needed (what seemed like) the entire braking system changed, including the slave cylinders at each end, because of leaks. Since we had the AMC, we didn't have to pay anything but Rs. 200 for taxes. This is the second time this has happened. Is the TASC changing out parts solely because we have the AMC? If not, this car would be quite expensive to maintain.

All this is making me think of exchanging the Nano. Considering the Nano is my dad's favourite car, the GenX Nano (maybe the AMT) is the only option. There are offers to the tune of 90K this month. Should I exchange the Nano now, or wait for the Pelican?

AFAIK, the GenX Nano is a very refined product that has had all the niggles ironed out. I can get a 4 year AMC to take care of any and all issues cheaply. Right now, I can also get a good price (with exchange) for my Nano. The newer models of the Nano, esp with power steering and AMT seem to have much better resale also, which means I can upgrade to the Pelican a couple of years down the road. What do you guys think?
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Old 9th July 2016, 09:10   #111
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Default Re: The Pelican - Tata Motors' new small car based on the Nano

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Originally Posted by vivekgk View Post
There are offers to the tune of 90K this month. Should I exchange the Nano now, or wait for the Pelican?
Can you share the details of the offer please?
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Old 9th July 2016, 09:15   #112
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Default Re: The Pelican - Tata Motors' new small car based on the Nano

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Can you share the details of the offer please?
I'm going to the dealership today, I'll let you know once I get the details.
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Old 11th July 2016, 15:46   #113
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Default Re: The Pelican - Tata Motors' new small car based on the Nano

All new set of spyshots, including one of the interiors, courtesy Zigwheels.

The Pelican - Tata Motors' new small car based on the Nano-image_6457.png

The Pelican - Tata Motors' new small car based on the Nano-image_6459.png

The Pelican - Tata Motors' new small car based on the Nano-image_6458.png

The Pelican - Tata Motors' new small car based on the Nano-image_6460.png

New horizontally-placed headlamp sections can be clearly seen, and also the updated interiors in line with their present compact car family.
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Old 11th July 2016, 17:53   #114
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I don't see the pull type door locks!

Could it be?
That they managed to have those in Tiago but based on feedback removed it from Nano?!
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Old 11th July 2016, 18:38   #115
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Default Re: The Pelican - Tata Motors' new small car based on the Nano

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Originally Posted by Dr.Suraj View Post
I don't see the pull type door locks!

Could it be?
That they managed to have those in Tiago but based on feedback removed it from Nano?!
A remark that may be out of context here - The Mercedes A class also has a pull type door lock-I saw it while driving one rented from Zoomcar. I think this depends on the shape of the door panels and some shapes make it difficult to incorporate the locking switch-from a manufacturing perspective.
If they maintain the same exteriors while changing the interiors, this car is not going to survive. People associate something in India for a long, long time and the front of the Nano, with its smiling face, reminds them of a cheap car-they won't pay more for it even if it's good value. Also, as has been expressed in a post above, owners of the first generation Nano (including me) weren't particularly happy with the number of spares they had to change. Some went for the new version (Twist/GenX) despite this (including me) but that's not an universal sentiment.
Unless they change the front and rear styling completely, and provide an option to fill in fuel without opening the bonnet, this car won't survive. The current Nano does not manage even 1000 units a month consistently and that shows how forgettable people think this car is. They may be wrong, but no company can battle public sentiment.
I hope good sense dawns on the design team and they bring out a fresh looking, silent and comfortable family car that people aspire to buy. The original Nano is history, at least in India, but its underpinnings can be useful in making a good and practical entry level hatchback that can sell well.
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Old 11th July 2016, 18:54   #116
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Default Re: The Pelican - Tata Motors' new small car based on the Nano

I am reliably informed by birdies that the Pelican test mules are equipped with 5-speed MT transmissions.

No word on the AMT, yet.
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Old 11th July 2016, 19:24   #117
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Looks like just another upgrade to Nano. Same body shell. A little tweak to the headlamps and interiors won't make it a pelican.
If TATA is planning to launch it with the name Pelican, people would just take it as a name changed Nano. TATA needs to change the body style and then say it's Pelican. A new look is really important for its success
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Old 11th July 2016, 20:37   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nissan1180 View Post
A remark that may be out of context here - The Mercedes A class also has a pull type door lock-I saw it while driving one rented from Zoomcar.
Unless they change the front and rear styling completely, and provide an option to fill in fuel without opening the bonnet, this car won't survive.
I think the fuel filler cap has been taken outside.
Shown clearly in some earlier spy pics.
Yea BMW 7 series has pull type locks too. So does Duster.

I think Pelican is a code name. Testing name.
Like Falcon for Bolt and Zest.
Kite (also a bird) for Tiago and it's sedan.
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Old 11th July 2016, 22:33   #119
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With today's Advt showing 70k offer on Nano (I think AMT, since that was mentioned in the sides), I assume Tata is intent on clearing stocks, to make way for the upgrade or Pelican, whatever it is.
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Old 12th July 2016, 11:42   #120
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Default Re: The Pelican - Tata Motors' new small car based on the Nano

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Originally Posted by RavenAvi View Post
I am reliably informed by birdies that the Pelican test mules are equipped with 5-speed MT transmissions.

No word on the AMT, yet.
Any information on the launch date? Will it happen this year?
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