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Old 8th May 2015, 12:00   #61
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Default Re: India does not need Low Cost Hatchbacks

Dear Khushrav
Though the article is thought provoking, I would beg to differ on these counts:

1) Buying a car/multiple car for the family is a emotional and lenghty family decision derived out of many circumstances.
Limiting a total of 30K cars will deprive a developing nation's aspirations a big way.
Also, if I can afford it, why do we need to curb it?

2) Automobile companies in the fringes like GM, Fiat, Ranault and Nissan will be completely wiped out. Even big companies like Hyundai and Maruti will be hugely affected.
Imagine, just the top 4 cars in the country- Alto, Swift, Dzire and Wagon R alone contribute to over 75,000 per month.

3) Petrol/ Diesel divide for 30K may not be viable and all investments and R&D expenses incurred goes as write off. Case in Case, Honda will be immensely impacted now that the iDtec has cost them big r&D bucks.

Sorry to state Khushrav but I do not agree or support the principle.
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Old 8th May 2015, 12:20   #62
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Default Re: India does not need Low Cost Hatchbacks

I too take a differing view of the Opening post.

1. The infrastructure in our country is still not good enough that I would forgo my personal mode of transportation; It is improving yes but still does not match the need.

2. For a trip from say Chennai to Sriperumathur ( abt 60 kms from Chennai) without your personal transportatio, it would be a day's effort vs 3-4 hrs with your personal vehicle.

3. While I agree that safety should be mandatory rather than options provided by the manufacturer, I don't believe in extending the taxes.

4. Our country sad to say is still not designed to work in a transparent manner. This vehicular auction also will become rigged.

An alternate suggestion would be to

1. Introduce a congestion charge
2. Promote greener vehicles
3. Promote vehicles that take less space on the road
4. Promote car pooling .
5. Improve the public transport infrastructure.
6. Provide better facilities in public transport for a higher cost for people who can afford. (Like an AC Coach in the local trains at 100 Rs vis a vis a 10 Rupee distance)
7. Even have a structure like China does that says even number cars on one day and odd number car on other days.
8. Encourage cyclists - Build cycle tracks that should be exclusive to human powered vehicles only.

This would work better than the singapore model
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Old 8th May 2015, 12:27   #63
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Default Re: India does not need Low Cost Hatchbacks

If we put that auction method into action, there is a chance that people who dont own a car yet and was saving everything to buy one for moving his family safely and conveniently (read: upgrade from 2 wheeler) may not be able to buy one because of the increased auction costs and limited availability, while someone who already has a car or few and wants to add more cars to his collection could get the car because he could afford to pay the extra costs. There should be a great increase in tax for owning more than one vehicle per household too.

and about the govt. re-investing proceeds from road/car taxes for developing the transport conditions will be a joke in India. Something like that cannot happen atleast for a 50 years in here.

What we need here are better car-pooling, promote the use of public transportation more, tax reduction or rebates for electric vehicles, encourage the use of bicycles etc. But first and foremost we need to have safe and proper road systems. Bicycles are not safe in current Indian road traffic conditions. In Europe there's special lanes for it and for parking too. We have a lot to learn from the European countries about how they implement all of the above mentioned things.
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Old 8th May 2015, 12:31   #64
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Default Re: India does not need Low Cost Hatchbacks

I usually shut off when someone goes "In Singapore.." , they are usually too privileged and cut off from reality. This kind of too many of them attitude is certainly not warranted on a forum dedicated to car lovers. Singapore is a city state that is about the size of Bangalore with about a third of the population and extremely limited citizen's rights, basically Cuba without communism.

India is large enough to accomodate the cars that sell, the car buyers didn't ask the government not to improve infrastructure or public transport, the boom happened because incomes have increased and the economy has been opened up to allow manufacturers to make as many cars as customers would want instead of the permit system that allowed crony capitalists to charge high for stone age junk like Ambassadors and Padminis. Anyone suggesting limits on car sales is cheering for more unemployment and lower incomes for the blue collar worker, basically champage socialism. The automobile industry is one of the best sectors in the manufacturing economy, just because some idiot environmentalist doesn't get cheap house help is no reason to shut it down.

We pay nearly 30% of the car's cost as taxes at ex showroom, then 20% more to get it on the road, and the suggestion is to increase taxes? The reason why roads are unsafe is because licensing norms are laughable, 2k in bribes gets you a license to kill or endanger fellow citizens, driver training is a joke and law enforcement is focussed on extracting maximum bribes for violations.

The best way to decrease congestion is to improve public transport, the taxes are high enough to finance this, once the connectivity exists, people will opt for it automatically, I think people from Delhi will be able to give examples of how the expanding Metro has achieved that to some extent.
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Old 8th May 2015, 13:23   #65
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Default Re: India does not need Low Cost Hatchbacks

Quote:
Originally Posted by avira_tk View Post
The best way to decrease congestion is to improve public transport, the taxes are high enough to finance this, once the connectivity exists, people will opt for it automatically, I think people from Delhi will be able to give examples of how the expanding Metro has achieved that to some extent.
Exactly, our financial system had enough of taxes to provide adequate infrastructure support.
It is more on the execution side, and planning of the city infrastructure.

Improving, infrastructure is the only way of curbing the traffic congestion. Gone are the times where cars were just a luxury, it is more like a necessity now. In the pollution, rainy days etc its far safer on the car than 2 wheelers. If the public transport is that good, people would obviously depend on them than driving. Especially office going public in Metros.

On an other note, we should look at reducing unsafe small cars from the roads, like the ones without ABS, AIRBAGS, SEAT BELT ALARMS, and also elaborate the traffic violence list to include driving with ORVMs closed, Driving on high beams in CIty proximity, Cars/trucks without functioning Brake Lights/Turn Indicators, and its a real long list.

Comparing with a country like Singapore, Dubai an all is baseless and old like we used to hear in 80's in Kerala where people used to blabber on the road infrastructure across middle east.

This is INDIA, we can learn from examples replicating will not work, because things are totally different, we cannot shut down an industry like this because we will add people to the unemployed list which is already out of control .
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Old 8th May 2015, 14:16   #66
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Default Re: India does not need Low Cost Hatchbacks

I would go one step further and ask even more basic question:
Q: WHY do you think there is increasing congestion in our cities?

A: Increasing population concentrated in smaller piece of land.

Q: What encourages this phenomenon?

A: ___
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Old 8th May 2015, 14:34   #67
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Default Re: India does not need Low Cost Hatchbacks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khushrav View Post

A model which I saw used to great effect in Singapore. The government should not allow more than 30,000 new cars each month pan India. Currently we are close to 100,000. The RC has to be bought through an auction by the dealer. The cost should be at a reserve price of at least INR 50,000 and this should be over and above the on-road price of the vehicle.
Well, to cite an example of Singapore which has a population of mere 6 million max is the first wrong step. A tier II city in India will have that much population.
If we take the ratio of New cars to population, we are definitely way way behind Singapore. Why curb it more?

Also, Singapore is just 716 sq kms in area, whereas India is 3,287,590 sq kms. Looking at the limited size of SG, they need such measures.

Secondly, this will only bring us back to the age old black marketing of car bookings rampant during the times of Fiat PAL & Bajaj Super bookings, which took years to deliver. Why go back? and who would want to sell cars in such a market? Probably only Maruti & Hyundai will be available as choices, with a couple of models, no? Will this not bring it to the situation of near monopoly which no one in today's age wants?

Ofcourse some may state that Singapore has many brands and multiple models per brand. But they are not manufactured in Singapore, no? This set up can work when the cars are CBU's. Can also help reduce the imports. But in our country where 95% of the cars sold are actually manufactured in India, we are looking at large scale job cuts, plant shut downs and a few brands packing up. Not viable.

Lets be realistic. Singapore and India cannot be compared. We are still developing. Hence what works in Singapore cannot be brought to India blindly.
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Old 8th May 2015, 16:10   #68
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Default Re: India does not need Low Cost Hatchbacks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khushrav View Post
Here is what I propose:
A model which I saw used to great effect in Singapore. The government should not allow more than 30,000 new cars each month pan India. Currently we are close to 100,000. The RC has to be bought through an auction by the dealer. The cost should be at a reserve price of at least INR 50,000 and this should be over and above the on-road price of the vehicle.
I dream of the day when someone would visit Alaska and inform us that buying more aircraft or dog sleds will be the best way to travel.

Thanks Khushrav, but I would prefer the current system, opportunities for everyone to get what they can. I can tell you stories about how much certain fancy number plates have cost in auctions, imagine what will be price of each one of the 30,000 cars in the monthly auctions. 29 states and 7 union territories, a city like Bangalore will be lucky to get 400 cars a month. I can boldly say that in that month's auction, people will be willing to easily part with 10 lakhs or more just to get the permit to own a car.

India has 13 cars per 1000 citizens, Singapore has 120 per 1000. Singapore's population density is 7,615/km2 and my country's is 382.6/km2. (Source Wikipedia) It is time they took steps to control their vehicles, we still have the option to improve.

And just how would you tell manufacturers when to stop production? In your planning did you consider the fact that India has an automotive industry and Singapore doesn't?

PS: Car sales per month is more than twice of what you mentioned.
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Old 8th May 2015, 16:54   #69
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Default Re: India does not need Low Cost Hatchbacks

To all who have quoted the Singapore sentence - I'm not proposing that as the panacea to all the traffic, pollution and safety woes. That was one theory that could be explored. We could use a similar model and customize it to our requirements. The numbers were illustrative and a back of the envelop calculation.

The over-arching message is the inadequate infrastructure as it exists today and the complete lack of safety equipment that our cars are kitted with.

If you read the last few sentences, I'm asking this to be tried as an experiment for 10 years. Using that emperical and statical data we can take informed decisions.

By us not doing anything or accpeting the status quo, we are closing our eyes to the problem. Eyes shut is not equal to no problem.
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Old 8th May 2015, 18:03   #70
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Default Re: India does not need Low Cost Hatchbacks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khushrav View Post
If you read the last few sentences, I'm asking this to be tried as an experiment for 10 years. Using that emperical and statical data we can take informed decisions.

By us not doing anything or accpeting the status quo, we are closing our eyes to the problem. Eyes shut is not equal to no problem.
I understand your point, but the suggested solution is not the right way ahead. And trying it for 10 years! ? I would go from 35 to 45 during this trial and knowing the law abiding nature of the people of our country I am sure I would not get the permit without huge bribes etc. On top of that, we already have a age restriction in the making of 10+ diesel & 15+ Petrol vehicles banned. If both the above are implemented, in 2-3 years I will be without a car as the age of my current car is quite near to the proposed ban, and second I will have to pay extra for the permit and the corruption will make matters worse. It is not that cars are cheap here with the taxes that we pay on them and the suggestion only adds to the woes.

Let us be aware of the facts before we come out with solutions solely aiming at the passenger vehicles. Because this is only a very small factor that contributes to the pollution. It is the commercial vehicles, diesel generators, industrialization, etc. which are the bigger contributors to the problem.
Ofcourse, once the nuclear power plants start, we should see a decrease in the use of generators and that is the type of solutions that will control the problem. Always pointing towards passenger vehicles is not helping anybody.
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Old 8th May 2015, 18:17   #71
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Default Re: Vehicle Quota System: Why not in India?

Are we in this world to live or just exist? What is life without freedom? If some govt is going to dictate if I can buy a car or not, I don't want to live in that country. Yes, I did leave Singapore after living there for years.

And one of the reasons I left was that it would take several years before I could possibly never own a car.

Driving is a passion, not just commute.

So a vehement NO from me.
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