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Old 5th February 2015, 11:15   #76
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Default Re: Indian Government to water down car safety standards!

Mr. Bhargava. Here is my idea.

1. Lets remove the structural bars on the cars and replace them with may be polyester yarn. That way the cost of car can be reduced even further and we can get all the 2 wheeler owners to shift to cars.

2. And when you are it, why not remove the brakes (drum or disk) and provide small holes on the floor of the car near the driver. When he needs to slow down the driver can push his feet on the road, generate friction and slow down the car. That will get all the cycle riders to buy cars.

3. And we will be left with the pedestrians now. Hmm. Let me think about it and get back to you.
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Old 5th February 2015, 11:27   #77
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Originally Posted by SchumiFan View Post
We might need to define 'what is safe'. It is highly variable and differs from person to person.

Also maybe you need to stop being paranoid about safety and take an educated decision. Your search towards safety rating will help and you will need to choose the car that you feel is safe. VW Polo right now are boasting that they are the safest hatch available in the country after these results. Maybe that's the car for you.

But if you eventually get an answer to your question and buy that car which you consider 'safe', please let go of the invincibility complex that might take over.

No matter how safe the cars are, there is always a way to break it.

Remember the stories of BMW braking into three parts?

Drive safe!
Honestly, I think you are missing the whole point. Now suppose you are looking to buy a house. Lets say - the building regulations are so watered down, that builders can even build with mud for the walls. It doesn't mean the whole house will crash down on the first day. It will provide you shelter from sun. And lets say the house is in a desert and there is no chance for rain. So does it mean you will be happy to buy the house? Any 'sane' person will complain that - the building regulations should be good/sound enough to an average person. The regulation cannot legally allow a builder to build sub standard houses. There will be exceptions - and hence called illegal. This is just an analogy. Hope you got the point.
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Old 5th February 2015, 11:28   #78
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Default Re: Indian Government to water down car safety standards!

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He was interested in knowing about ABS and Airbags as he found them to be the major differentiating factors. When he asked the SA about them, he apparently said "Sir, since you don't travel at high speeds like 100-120 and don't RACE(), you don't need them".
When I bought my Swift VDI in 2008, they offered ABS as an option. I choose to go with it and the SA argued with me for 10 mins on why I was wasting my money driving in the City with ABS. He even offered a discount on a high end ICE system which I could easily get by saving my money on the non-ABS variant.

When I persisted, he went as far as calling me an idiot - in gentle, politically correct words, of course

But to come back to the main topic, we need to create awareness among the people about what safety features are available and what they do for you. Generally, this begins with the SA. Unfortunately, the SA's themselves have no clue what ABS or Airbag really does and are not in a position to advise the customers well. It's not like customers walk in to a dealership thinking that they do not want a car with ABS or Airbag.

If the SA can convince the customer about the benefits of safety equipment, he may be able to push them towards a top trim model. Instead they go gaga about the fancy touchscreen in trying to push for the top trim...
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Old 5th February 2015, 13:33   #79
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Sometimes I wonder if I should quit my job and speak to Max Mosley about creating an Indian NCAP and buy cars and test them. Just outraging on TeamBHP and Twitter and FaceBook isn't helping reduce fatalities, so someone needs to bell the cat. The only issue is how do I get my fellow citizens to care? And also make a modest living. Any suggestions on how to go about this? This is a serious question. No sarcasm/humor involved
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Old 5th February 2015, 15:05   #80
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Default Re: Indian Government to water down car safety standards!

I think this entire story revolves round the fact that majority of the population has a specific pattern of buying cars. Most of us usually try to aim for a more premium car albeit with less features than settle for a lower segment car with all the features. More bang for buck is the name of the game and that is what hurts us.

But then the answer is clear and has been witnessed in the biking market. At one point of time, the fill it, shut it and forget it formula ruled the models made by all manufacturers till the time Hero and Bajaj introduced performance oriented and feature laden bikes like the CBZ and the Pulsar twins. From there, we have seen almost all global brands bring in their finest horses to sell here in India, laden with all possible features. Even the economy segment is seeing better and better features including disc brakes and mono-shocks.

It is a number game and the change will come only the day manufacturers realize that people are willing to settle for cars with such life saving features although at a higher cost.

While I am not protecting or speaking from the manufacturer point of view, it is simply us, the consumers that drive the market. Until that happens, expect the manufacturer lobby to be strong and use the arm twisting tactics to bend the rules in their favor.
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Old 5th February 2015, 15:15   #81
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Default Re: Indian Government to water down car safety standards!

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Originally Posted by navin_v8 View Post
I have been working in the service domain which is closely related to manufacturing companies and what I have seen in my 10+ years of work experience is Indians do not give a two hoots to HSE (Health, Safety and Environment) neither in their workplace nor in their day to day lives. There are many examples of this like security and safety drills in our offices which are considered as a joke (forget blue collared) by many white collared individuals, one of the highest road accidents and fatalities in the world in our country, considering spending on safety as an expense and not as an investment (people mixing insurance with investment).
I am severly OT here but this is so true! These kind of problems arise only because we as people are just not bothered about our own health, safety or in turn, the environment to keep it that way. We are just too callous about our own well-being.

I mean, if we were just more concerned about ourselves, wouldn't this have been headlines in some newspaper and made some impact? Heck, if that was the case, the manufacturers cannot even utter such drivel and get away with it!
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Old 5th February 2015, 19:22   #82
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Default Re: Indian Government to water down car safety standards!

Read this again

"No child dummies for side impact tests"

Lets translate:

Safety measures for a CHILD, who would be more susceptible to injury or worse in case of a crash should not be even considered

My question is, how do these ignorant worms sleep at night? With each passing day, I lose hope in this country

For my an my family's safety, I have sworn to shun these tin cans on wheels. I will happily bear the higher maintenance cost of a sturdier European car than put my family in a deathtrap. I will NEVER skimp on ABS and Airbags

We may never understand the importance of these safety measures till we are faced with the day of reckoning. Alas, it will be too little too late then
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Old 5th February 2015, 23:27   #83
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Originally Posted by Urban_Nomad View Post

We may never understand the importance of these safety measures till we are faced with the day of reckoning. Alas, it will be too little too late then
Its true. There is little awareness what safety measures can do and therefore less demand for them. Though I don't agree with the comments made by auto-industry bigwigs, they are astute in their assessment of business implication these stricter regulations will have. Guess some high-selling products will face risk of proving too vulnerable on the roads.

Besides, we have terrible driving habits which make our roads even more unsafe. The discussion here seems more cars centric but certain roads are substantially occupied by heavier vehicles which have their own way of behaving. I personally feel not a bit safe on road, despite having dual airbags and ABS, when stuck between a trailer and a lorry both in hurry to reach somewhere. And it is just one example.
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Old 6th February 2015, 00:15   #84
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Its true. There is little awareness what safety measures can do ......

Besides, we have terrible driving habits which make our roads even more unsafe. The discussion here seems more cars centric but certain roads are substantially occupied by heavier vehicles which have their own way of behaving. I personally feel not a bit safe on road, despite having dual airbags and ABS, when stuck between a trailer and a lorry both in hurry to reach somewhere. And it is just one example.
Why look far to ascertain what the level of awreness is. Just a page or so back on this very thread, we have a Bhpian saying things like:

- Safety must be defined and differs person to person
- We should not fall prey to invincibility syndrome because our cars come equipeed with safety features

Its funny and sad at the same time

Safety is already measured and defined by a standard - The NCAP. It not only gives an objective score on how safe someting is, it further breaks it down by occupant safety (child / adult / driver / passenger etc.), frontal / side collision rating and (I think) pedestrian safety too. Where is the subjectivity I ask? But for some reason, its still all a mystery

And I get myself a car with airbags, now I am looking for moving and stationary objects to ram into, because airbags make me invincible?

Analogy - I ride a motorcycle to work, 100 kms return trip. I am fully geared, which means a Snell rated helmet, riding jacket with a CE rated back pad, gauntlet gloves, CE rated strap on knee guards and riding boots. Now I must feel like I could get hit by a tank and walk away unscathed, no?

Safety features only help bring the odds in your favour in case of an untoward incident. Nobody can gaurantee your safety. But these additional aids could mean the difference between life and death. Or - a bruise vs a serious injury

And this BHPian is obviously articulate and thus well educated, not a worthless lowlife cabbie (yes, they are all worthless lowlifes. The lowest kinds) or an arrogant illiterate lorry driver

Alas .... ...... Alas
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Old 6th February 2015, 08:09   #85
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Default Re: Indian Government to water down car safety standards!

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Originally Posted by Urban_Nomad View Post
Why look far to ascertain what the level of awreness is. Just a page or so back on this very thread, we have a Bhpian saying things like:

- Safety must be defined and differs person to person
- We should not fall prey to invincibility syndrome because our cars come equipeed with safety features

Its funny and sad at the same time

Safety is already measured and defined by a standard - The NCAP. It not only gives an objective score on how safe someting is, it further breaks it down by occupant safety (child / adult / driver / passenger etc.), frontal / side collision rating and (I think) pedestrian safety too. Where is the subjectivity I ask? But for some reason, its still all a mystery
Please note that the NCAP tests are done at 64 km/h and against an identical weight - even a Nano on a highway goes above that speed and might be crashing into something 5 times its weight. No crash test agency is guaranteeing safety for crashes above that speed and for weights that are much more than your car. Very few people realize the weight factor in crash test.

No one is saying the the driver would try to ram into a stationary object just because their car has ABS and airbags. Ignorant idiots on the so-called safe cars are willing to take chances with overspeeding and overtakes that no sane person would normally take just because they think they can walk away even if their judgement goes wrong. This is the invincibility syndrome mentioned earlier, at least from what I understand. In a lot of overtakings gone wrong, the driver doesn't brake until the very last minute thinking he can still make it and this ensures the car stays above or near the 64km/h.
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Old 6th February 2015, 08:50   #86
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Default Re: Indian Government to water down car safety standards!

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Please note that the NCAP tests are done at 64 km/h and against an identical weight - even a Nano on a highway goes above that speed and might be crashing into something 5 times its weight. No crash test agency is guaranteeing safety for crashes above that speed and for weights that are much more than your car. Very few people realize the weight factor in crash test.

No one is saying the the driver would try to ram into a stationary object just because their car has ABS and airbags. Ignorant idiots on the so-called safe cars are willing to take chances with overspeeding and overtakes that no sane person would normally take just because they think they can walk away even if their judgement goes wrong. This is the invincibility syndrome mentioned earlier, at least from what I understand. In a lot of overtakings gone wrong, the driver doesn't brake until the very last minute thinking he can still make it and this ensures the car stays above or near the 64km/h.
Not sure what to infer from the post. What are you trying to convey here?

I'm no expert but I have seen plenty videos of NCAp tests where they smash cars into walls / pillars etc. regardless of what they smash into, there is at least a benchmark to go by as opposed to a person's gut feel. How many people still believe ambassador to be the safest car ever given its weight n bulky appearance?

I have clearly mentioned that no manufacturer can gaurantee safety it's simply getting the odds in your favor. And a crash at 64 kph is no joke.

I'm being repetitive here but can't infer what you are trying to say bud. And let's put all discussions aside for a moment, is there even an iota of doubt that an abs / airbag equipped vehicle is safer than one that does not have it? Do you condone or condemn the statements made by these political fools?

Edit - the invincibility syndrome. I still don't get it. How is it even a factor? How does having airbags or whatever else in my car give me that feel good factor of walking away from a crash? Do I lead an unhealthy lifestyle just because I now have medical insurance? Or back to cars, do I drive recklessly because I know I have car insurance and I'll be covered in case I need to get it repaired, more so if I have a zero dep cover?

Last edited by Urban_Nomad : 6th February 2015 at 08:57.
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Old 6th February 2015, 09:07   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zenren View Post
Please note that the NCAP tests are done at 64 km/h and against an identical weight - even a Nano on a highway goes above that speed and might be crashing into something 5 times its weight. No crash test agency is guaranteeing safety for crashes above that speed and for weights that are much more than your car. Very few people realize the weight factor in crash test.

No one is saying the the driver would try to ram into a stationary object just because their car has ABS and airbags. Ignorant idiots on the so-called safe cars are willing to take chances with overspeeding and overtakes that no sane person would normally take just because they think they can walk away even if their judgement goes wrong. This is the invincibility syndrome mentioned earlier, at least from what I understand. In a lot of overtakings gone wrong, the driver doesn't brake until the very last minute thinking he can still make it and this ensures the car stays above or near the 64km/h.
Given that most express highways in India have a speed limit of 80kmph to 100 kmph, there 64kmph test should be the norm.
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Old 6th February 2015, 09:22   #88
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Given that most express highways in India have a speed limit of 80kmph to 100 kmph, there 64kmph test should be the norm.
Zenren is also saying the same thing if I understood him correctly. Anything beyond 64kmph, there is no guarantee of the outcome.

And I second what he mentioned in his post. That is what I wanted to convey.

The road is full of idiots and there is nothing like 'death proof' car. Just this morning I saw a person racing in a BMW 5 series inside a street barely wide for two cars. If involved in an accident, he might survive but the other guy wont if he is not in a similar car.

This is what I mean by idiots on the road.

Understand two limits, that of the car and ourself as a driver. We won't be starting an accident. For the rest, God only knows.

Last edited by SchumiFan : 6th February 2015 at 09:27.
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Old 6th February 2015, 09:57   #89
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Originally Posted by SchumiFan View Post
Zenren is also saying the same thing if I understood him correctly. Anything beyond 64kmph, there is no guarantee of the outcome.

And I second what he mentioned in his post. That is what I wanted to convey.

The road is full of idiots and there is nothing like 'death proof' car. Just this morning I saw a person racing in a BMW 5 series inside a street barely wide for two cars. If involved in an accident, he might survive but the other guy wont if he is not in a similar car.

This is what I mean by idiots on the road.

Understand two limits, that of the car and ourself as a driver. We won't be starting an accident. For the rest, God only knows.
This is not a personal attack but as per you, there's no need to ensure cars driving on it meet a threshold of impact testing to even 70% of its mandated speed limir?

In that case, why bother with grade separation, restricting autorickshaws and scooters etc?
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Old 6th February 2015, 10:58   #90
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I'm yet to meet with someone who goes fast because he knows he's safer in a crash.
Everybody who I've met, who's gone faster than is safe,has done it because their car can. Nanos to pondering SUVs, it's never about safety.
It's always the turbo kicking in, not the abs, that's leading to the speed and recklessness.
Moronic.

In fact, if the safety features are such a cost factor, that the head honchos are willing to overlook the basic norms, why don't they bring down this ability of going at speed.
The new 530d, the 5 series with a 30cc engine. Money made, speed reduced, problem solved!

Last edited by mayankk : 6th February 2015 at 11:01.
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