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Old 24th February 2015, 21:20   #16
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Default Re: Anti-Counterfeiting Solutions for the Automotive Industry - The Spurious Parts Menace

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Originally Posted by ACM View Post
Spares is a business in itself for the Car Manufacturers. To give an example of another industry HP makes Printers that cost very less and is very competitive and also warns that fake or refilled ink cartridges will void the warranty. But replacing the Ink cartridge twice for certain models can be more expensive than buying a new printer. They make money on the Cartridges and Toners. The Car manufacturers make more on spares than the service centres and they are not likely to give that us too soon.
I think HP have learned the lesson and had changed their strategy at least for low cost models. The cartridges are competitively priced and available online and also in many shops apart from HP showrooms. Though I have no data to support, according to a friend of mine who has a shop at Ritchie Street (Chennai) said that many people are now willing to buy original cartridge instead of refilling or spurious one.

I totally agree to your point that Car manufacturers may not be amenable to reduce spare cost. But a competitive pricing will only increase their business in the long run.
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Old 24th February 2015, 22:04   #17
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I don't think just lowering the price of parts at the dealers is going to solve this.

Let me give an example. Say i need a new fuel pump on my car and that happens to be a Bosch fuel pump. At the dealer it will cost x, but if I go to a shop that deals exclusively with parts supply it will cost say half x. I still get an original Bosch fuel pump. The problem is that the market is flooded with fake Bosch pumps of inferior quality at the same price of x, 0.5x or even less.

Im not sure how it works exactly here in india, but let me illustrate a real life situation in the Netherlands. A friend of mine owns a Alfa Romeo dealership. On average he will replace about 45 fuel pumps a year. Another friend of mine owns a part shop for Fiat, Lancia and Alfa Romeo. He sell the identical Bosch pump about at 2000-3000 units per year.

It is the identical Bosch pump, although the one at the Alfa dealer comes in an Alfa Romeo box and an Alfa Romeo part nr, and the other one in a Bosch box and Bosch part number.

So identical part, but used in a different business model so there can be substantial price differences. I can choose what I do, figure out what works best for me. Whichever route I take I end up with a genuine Bosch pump.

The big problem with fake parts is that they claim to be what they are not, genuine parts. So they fall short of the specifications and quality. On top of that they are likely to infringe on patents, IPR, brand etc.

As long as we are basing our discussion on an apple to apple comparison price is a differentiating factor. The problem with fake parts is they claim to be the genuine article, but are often of inferior quality.

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Old 25th February 2015, 17:12   #18
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Default Re: Which is the best solution? How best can we combat Conterfeiters?

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Originally Posted by DevendraG View Post
The issue here is very relevant to Indian as well as Foreign markets. And an initiative to resolve this is definitely welcome
But from end consumer perspective, I feel this won't be sufficient if not coupled with far better technology (maybe even a decade later if not now).

I haven't had a lot of interaction with Premium brands but from what I read here in reviews they have warning indicators for product wear/tear too (example: a spare is reaching it's prescribed lifetime). Why can't that technology be further improved to cater to our case coz that would be implemented at Car Manufacturing level (maybe the ECU) which would bring down the costs, ensure no tampering (or almost nil) and serve the purpose of direct connect between manufacturer & consumer.
Technology in vehicles go a long way already but there are limits. For example in some VW group vehicles if one of the bulbs is replaced with another one of a different power consumption rating than originally specified the vehicle MID shows an error as soon as one start to drive off.

But this solution can at best check for the wattage / current / power consumption ratings of the bulb or relay but not for an inferior quality product that will last less or even blow up and catch fire.

An ECU can work with variables which are essentially current drawn and / or voltage across a sensor, but even a fake product would be designed to give these ratings correctly. There are duplicate brake pads made of significantly inferior materials which can under heavy braking and continuous use even blow up and catch fire.

A fake Glass (say windshield) would not be connected to any electrical circuit. A fake bumper (replaced after an accident) may not have the crumple zones and energy absorbing capabilities and hence in the next accident would not function properly and just disintegrate.

Yep if every component somehow carried an electronic circuit and if it was possible to check the same via an encrypted algorithm it would be interesting. But we are I feel at least 20 years away from something like that.

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Originally Posted by Swapnil4585 View Post
Rightly pointed. However, I fear, we might not see the Government's regulatory agencies look in this industry. Instead, the Government's approach will be more of a revenue garnering agent since;
Whether Counterfeit or Original, the cycle Manufacture = Excise, Sale/Resale = VAT&CST and Import = Customs, continues to generate income.

In the past 4 of the 8 years of my Indigo's ownership, I had made it a rule to be present in the workshop at the time of regular services or niggle rectifications. Surf Team-BHP / internet, understand the problem, buy the necessary spares and attend the job has been my approach with the car. However I agree with ACM sir that, identifying a counterfeit spare is very difficult. A very insightful thread sir, rating 5 stars.
Thank you for the rating. The government also needs to realize that the money made from Counterfeit products is generally what we call Black Money. When imported the custom value is shown ridiculously low (like a lot of the electronics and toys at say Crowford Market or Lamington Road in Mumbai and Nehru Place in Delhi. The undervaluing ensure that the government does not earn any significant money. Have we not seen LED torches costing Rs. 400 marked with an MRP of Rs. 10? on the street. Since a lot of the auto parts are sold without packing there is simply no MRP visible. This Black money finds it ways to other antisocial avenues and terrorism globally.

The other problem is that unless we are buying the part at the Authorized Centre (which generally charges higher we cannot know that the part is genuine of fake. The ancillary making the part for the company can supply the same into the open market at very competitive price points that can be 30-50% lower than the Authorized Centre.. Why should we not buy form them directly but the problem is that a Rane Power Steering or a Minda Power Window component or Lucas or Bosch component itself can be duplicated in the open market.
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Old 25th February 2015, 17:38   #19
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Default Re: Anti-Counterfeiting Solutions for the Automotive Industry - The Spurious Parts Menace

I believe that e-commerce and m-commerce can also do their bit to contribute towards reduction in costs as well as certification of where they are coming from. The automobile sector has to be one of the most digitally savvy and one of the biggest spenders in terms of advertising in the Indian online space , i wonder why some of them are not more vested into seeing up their own e-commerce portals and giving consumers an opportunity to be able to order genuine parts from home. It will serve to be a revenue stream possibly. And the way i see it is that it does not need to be too complicated either - they can piggyback on the network say a Flipkart has setup , all they need to do is ensure that availability is present and the information is updated at all times.

Yes , eCommerce does not solve all of the problems - for example if you are looking for a part right now then with eCommerce one might need to wait 2-3 days for it to arrive , it will serve a certain part of the needy population and not all but that's fine , it does need to be the ONLY way , it can be one of many which move towards these objectives.
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Old 25th February 2015, 18:49   #20
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Default Re: Anti-Counterfeiting Solutions for the Automotive Industry - The Spurious Parts Menace

1) Government needs to do a aadhar-linked-to-LPG kind of setup.

2) Identify, catalog, publish, legalize all manufacturers of Automobile spares.

3) Share them with QA/Vendor development dept of Car makers

4) Let the car makers apply their supplier-score-card metrics system and grade all the legalized spare makers per the govt list - on a scale of 1-10 (10 being worst and assuming many will be only 8-10)

5) Let the distributors and shops stock-display-sell all genuine and delhi-wallah parts and display ratings openly

6) Tie up loose ends by putting in strict penalties, cash&orJail terms for defaulters

All said and done ^ the biggest uncontrolled link in the whole supply chain of spurious AFM parts are the shop keepers. I have openly seen them promote local parts because of the juicy profits in it. They just cannot be reigned in. The makers of the so called 'delhi' products fall head over heels to sell their parts at very low, cheap prices to the state level distributors and then onto shop keepers. But the shop keepers just wont give up.

Not only automobile spares, every electrical product gets a counterfeit spare from the delhi market. Havells, Anchor, you name it. Its too large a economy to control anytime in the near future.

PS - I feel the Dark world economy of conterfeiting spares in India is larger than Chinese imports into India
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Old 25th February 2015, 21:30   #21
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Default Re: Anti-Counterfeiting Solutions for the Automotive Industry - The Spurious Parts Menace

Quote:
Originally Posted by AshBabu View Post
I think HP have learned the lesson and had changed their strategy at least for low cost models. The cartridges are competitively priced and available online and also in many shops apart from HP showrooms. Though I have no data to support, according to a friend of mine who has a shop at Ritchie Street (Chennai) said that many people are now willing to buy original cartridge instead of refilling or spurious one.

I totally agree to your point that Car manufacturers may not be amenable to reduce spare cost. But a competitive pricing will only increase their business in the long run.
Yes there has been a bit of revision but this mainly pertains to cartridges and tonner than cannot be refilled. To explain better, I for example have a HP printer that takes 6 cartridges, A large black one plus 5 smaller of different colours. Each cartridge costs about Rs. 800 (original). A refilled costs Rs. 100 but mine can't be refilled (the type of technology etc.) and as expected no price revision either. Am locked into to either buying the original at exorbitant prices or getting duplicates (if available.) Evidently these are cartridges with some technology that tells the printer how old they are and what their ink level is etc. So if one is expired and still works normally and is full the printer starts objecting. . It's not like it is some medicine that I would worry if the ink is a bit old. We all would buy an original cartridge even if the pricing was say double a refill or a duplicate but 6/7 times the pricing?

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Originally Posted by puchoo View Post
I believe that e-commerce and m-commerce can also do their bit to contribute towards reduction in costs as well as certification of where they are coming from. The automobile sector has to be one of the most digitally savvy and one of the biggest spenders in terms of advertising in the Indian online space , i wonder why some of them are not more vested into seeing up their own e-commerce portals and giving consumers an opportunity to be able to order genuine parts from home. It will serve to be a revenue stream possibly. And the way i see it is that it does not need to be too complicated either - they can piggyback on the network say a Flipkart has setup , all they need to do is ensure that availability is present and the information is updated at all times.

Yes , eCommerce does not solve all of the problems - for example if you are looking for a part right now then with eCommerce one might need to wait 2-3 days for it to arrive , it will serve a certain part of the needy population and not all but that's fine , it does need to be the ONLY way , it can be one of many which move towards these objectives.
A really good Idea but do keep in mind that we can end up with fake products or products without warranty even from Flipkart and Amazon. This happens quite often infact. As finally they are just hosting the sellers and are not the sellers themselves for most of the products.

Also typically though in theory the vehicle PIN number should throw up the exact part which was originally fitted to the vehicle even now most service centres end up removing the part and then ordering after noting the part number. That can leave us without a vehicle for a few days for sure if we tired to order online, besides who would remove the part? Generally the local mechanic if not at the authorized centre. Quite complex in reality. Yet definitely a way of getting genuine parts.

But I would still maintain the cheapest and fool proof option is for the companies to provide scratch stickers on each product that they ship through any source and have us SMS back the pin for a confirmation email of it being genuine or fake. The cost of this is so low that it is almost ridiculous that this is still not implemented by most vendors.

Check this out: From another thread - Thanks Arunphilip and Ashok Naik
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...ml#post3652027 (Waterless Coolant For Cars - Does it really work?)

If something like golden cruiser coolant can have it why not the oil companies and automobile spares?

Infact even the solution used for Golden cruiser coolant is not necessarily perfect as it does not seem to have a visible scratch portion (or maybe it gave away so can't be sure.)
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Old 25th February 2015, 21:47   #22
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Default Re: Anti-Counterfeiting Solutions for the Automotive Industry - The Spurious Parts Menace

Well that's actually what i meant- i first recommended that they open their own online stores , company driven initiatives and if that was a complicated activity to do then they should ride on the backbone of a flipkart - however when i named a third party i did not mean that should have multiple sellers selling spares but they should have a clear official / direct account with them which is a company account i.e. Maruti or Hyundai , so the seller is the company itself not multiple guys or dealers for that matter.

The equivalent of say a Philips selling officially through Flipkart which they are doing , so while there may be independent sellers , Philips has a corporate/official account.

One will never be able to stop independent sellers but if you eventually had the option to but something for either 80 bucks from an independent or the same item for 100 from the company itself i suspect many of us would be happy to pay that additional 20 bucks

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Originally Posted by ACM View Post

A really good Idea but do keep in mind that we can end up with fake products or products without warranty even from Flipkart and Amazon. This happens quite often infact. As finally they are just hosting the sellers and are not the sellers themselves for most of the products.

Last edited by puchoo : 25th February 2015 at 21:48.
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Old 27th February 2015, 01:17   #23
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Default Re: Anti-Counterfeiting Solutions for the Automotive Industry - The Spurious Parts Menace

I recently came across a verification system where the product code can be dialed into a toll free number or entered into a webpage at the company website which verifies if the part is genuine or not.

I think with some tweaks, we could use this for the automotive industry as well since most of the part manufacturing happens through a well-laid-out supply chain process. What would be difficult is if someone doesn't bother to verify these parts. Then, of course, the person shouldn't be worried if it fails as well.
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Old 27th February 2015, 11:01   #24
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Default Re: Anti-Counterfeiting Solutions for the Automotive Industry - The Spurious Parts Menace

To stamp out the counterfeit menace the authorities need to take strict action, only conducting random feeble raids is not enough. Just like the custom authorities if the government or the car companies start rewarding whistle blowers legitimately (say 10% of cost of parts caught and destroyed), then lot of people will come forward to identify and trap these counterfeiters. Along with this, the counterfeiters must be booked under strict un bailable acts like the TADA, and a sufficient and long prison term must be enforced along with seizure of all properties.
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Old 2nd March 2015, 07:53   #25
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Default Re: Anti-Counterfeiting Solutions for the Automotive Industry - The Spurious Parts Menace

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Originally Posted by Mad Max View Post
I recently came across a verification system where the product code can be dialed into a toll free number or entered into a webpage at the company website which verifies if the part is genuine or not.

I think with some tweaks, we could use this for the automotive industry as well since most of the part manufacturing happens through a well-laid-out supply chain process. What would be difficult is if someone doesn't bother to verify these parts. Then, of course, the person shouldn't be worried if it fails as well.
Yep Mobile Product authentication solutions provide both these options as well I.e. web and calls. But the customers generally over time settle down to 90% + communication through SMS due to the simplicity of it. This has been a documented observation for use in Pharma Industry at least.

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Originally Posted by apachelongbow View Post
To stamp out the counterfeit menace the authorities need to take strict action, only conducting random feeble raids is not enough. Just like the custom authorities if the government or the car companies start rewarding whistle blowers legitimately (say 10% of cost of parts caught and destroyed), then lot of people will come forward to identify and trap these counterfeiters. Along with this, the counterfeiters must be booked under strict unbailable acts like the TADA, and a sufficient and long prison term must be enforced along with seizure of all properties.
Yep rewarding the fake product "catchers" is a good idea. But since it is a fake product the value is actually zero and the product has to be destroyed like drugs and unlike stolen goods or gold. So the funding for the 10% would need to figured out at length. Don't see the car companies coming forth to reward in a substantial manner but in theory they could of course provided it be possible to know which is a fake.
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