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Old 4th March 2015, 13:38   #61
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Default Re: Rumour: Tata Motors to launch performance brand. 120 BHP Bolt coming

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Originally Posted by S2!!! View Post
I like everything about this Bolt except the wacky front bumper.

This Tata is indeed a global product. Why do I say that? Apart from aerodynamics and stylish looks, the front bumper is designed to double up as a plough to clear up snow too

Attachment 1346171


Image taken from google for representation purpose only. Not meant to hurt anyone's sentiments
Yeah, but with VW Polo this becomes an elegant and timeless design cue.
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Old 4th March 2015, 15:39   #62
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Default Re: Rumour: Tata Motors to launch performance brand. 120 BHP Bolt coming

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Originally Posted by Contrapunto View Post
Tata Motors has enough and more technical chops. They don't need any more of it. What they need is a dose of panache, and a leader who will "risk some" with a load of the dice or two, backed by his strength of convictions. Tata Motors needs "look-at-me-here-I-am" products. A "me-too" product will not help differentiate you from the rest of the flock.
I thought whether it would be correct for me to respond in this thread, but then the "performance enthusiast" in me got the better of me, so here goes: .

Dear Contrapunto - I completely agree to each and every word of your comments above. Also, "me-too" is suicide in India, a west India based small company has been trying to make "me-too" MUVs and SUVs for years, I heard that they are making huge money, but will they ever earn market respect?

Dear all - my comments are as follows:
1. Besides a smattering dosage of mid-level powered GT-TSi and GT-TDi, does India have any real hot hatches? The answer is NO!
2. Does India have a market for real hot hatches? The answer is YES!
3a. European hot hatches have 2.5 times the power of their normal siblings, what ratio will India accept? I am trying to find this impirical as this answer carries the key to the success of this business!
3b. What price ratio will India accept?
3c. What are the game-changer equations? Are paddle shifters compulsory? Is something like "dual-clutch, 7 speed automatic" going to cut it?
4. Unlike in Europe, in India the car will have to fill-in as A-to-B transport for the family including the proverbial mother-in-law also? The answer is YES!
5. In India, "kitna deti hai" is very important. Can something surpass it? The answer is YES, but in the medium to long term!
6. Will India accept the minimalistic approach? The supercars do it all the time but in a hot hatch? The answer is I DON'T KNOW!
7. Is India is one of the most difficult markets to crack and master? In India, a good vehicle will not necessarily sell and a "ghanchakkar" vehicle will sell huge volumes! There are quite a few examples. At least I have not seen this happening anywhere else in the world! The answer is YES!

Now, with inputs from points 1, 2, 4, 5, 6 and 7, can you guys give some sort of indicative answers to questions 3a, 3b and 3c? .

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

PS - dear moderators, you may edit or eliminate this post if it interferes with TeamBHP guidelines in any way.

Last edited by DHABHAR.BEHRAM : 4th March 2015 at 15:42.
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Old 4th March 2015, 15:50   #63
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Default Re: Rumour: Tata Motors to launch performance brand. 120 BHP Bolt coming

Is TATA satisfied with the current vehicles that they are emboldened with the dreams of making sport versions?
When there is not much money being made from current products and enthusiast acceptance, is it a good exercise?
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Old 4th March 2015, 16:41   #64
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Default Re: Rumour: Tata Motors to launch performance brand. 120 BHP Bolt coming

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Originally Posted by balechaparka View Post
Yesterday saw this car with MH registration.Might be Tata car
That's the Mahindra sub-4m compact SUV (codename: S101) meant to rival the likes of Ford's EcoSport.

The window line, rear wiper and wheel caps of the vehicle in your spy photos exactly match those of the vehicle in these spy pictures:

http://motorbash.com/s101-spied-with...pic-with-xylo/
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Old 4th March 2015, 18:30   #65
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Default Re: Rumour: Tata Motors to launch performance brand. 120 BHP Bolt coming

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Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM View Post
Now, with inputs from points 1, 2, 4, 5, 6 and 7, can you guys give some sort of indicative answers to questions 3a, 3b and 3c? .
Dear BD, I hope and pray your passion rubs off on those around you and we see even limited market experiments with performance variants. Heaven knows there is enough display space in the showrooms to fit at least one, at any time.
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Old 4th March 2015, 18:36   #66
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Default Re: Rumour: Tata Motors to launch performance brand. 120 BHP Bolt coming

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Originally Posted by Contrapunto View Post
Tata a leader who will "risk some" with a load of the dice or two , backed by his strength of convictions.
[/b]
You know what happened last time Tata rolled the dice and leader had some conviction?

We got the Nano and the Aria!

For some reason, the company either wants to go all messiah on us, with a car that will save us. Or go 100 % innovation, and produce a vehicle no one had asked for.
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Old 4th March 2015, 18:59   #67
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Default Re: Rumour: Tata Motors to launch performance brand. 120 BHP Bolt coming

Yes, the front doesn't look elegant, while similar design looks fab in the current Polo, as someone else pointed out.
I can not see a single problem with other modifications. The dual exhaust, the interior black red theme, they exude quality and sportiness.
In a market where Zest and Bolt (best products in their respective categories IMO) are among the least selling among lackluster Hyundais and bare basic Hondas and Marutis, such attempts are always welcome. I am indicating at the proposition of a 4 discs, 205mm section rubber etc.
120 bhp sounds just awesome. That is Honda City's territory while the torque figures match that of the Polo TSi. I truly support if Tata could make it to production, which looks slightly less likely to happen. But if it was to happen, I would certainly pay 1 Lakh premium over the top end for this thing. That way, it would cost the same as i20s and Polos with their 1.2 Petrols cost.
Now, the important question. They had to use Fiat's gearbox as the one currently serves in standard Bolt won't be able to handle higher amount of power and torque. So, if somebody with a Bolt/Zest Revotron wants to spice his ride up (Alloys can be painted grey, fatter tyres, that interior theme), what is the power/torque figures that should be achievable by getting a remap done, still using the same engine hardware, also keeping in mind that it would be Tata's gearbox that Tata replaced by a Fiat one for this 'Sport' display variant?
It is for anybody's guess, mine is 105 bhp/155Nm max. Interesting and really good numbers.
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Old 4th March 2015, 20:38   #68
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Default Re: Rumour: Tata Motors to launch performance brand. 120 BHP Bolt coming

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Originally Posted by lawdgawd View Post
You know what happened last time Tata rolled the dice and leader had some conviction?

We got the Nano and the Aria!

For some reason, the company either wants to go all messiah on us, with a car that will save us. Or go 100 % innovation, and produce a vehicle no one had asked for.
Thanks for bringing this one up. I think both Nano and Aria were great products and showcases of innovation. They did not work for what, with the benefit of hindsight sounds obvious, but it should not detract from the merit of the products or the innovation they represented.

But there has been a complete lull ever since. I think it also probably left a scar in the collective psyche of the leadership at Tata Motors. But also remember the Indica (also a great innovation of that age), sub-4 meter Indigo CS (cheeky take on an absurd regulation) and the other successes they have. The leadership at Tata Motors need to do more innovation and not less. Draw inspiration from those that worked, and lessons from those that did not.

The alternative, as I hope they are realizing anew, is not loss of leadership position alone, it is their very survival.
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Old 4th March 2015, 22:04   #69
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Default Re: Rumour: Tata Motors to launch performance brand. 120 BHP Bolt coming

For me the only disappointment from Tata is how they are reluctant to come up with a hatch/sedan that looks different than previous products (read Indica). Safari and Aria are very nice products, but for the brand perception and in some cases price, these should be selling in good numbers. They have to play it smart and understand what our car buying public are. I would even go on to say wrap the bolt in a different skin/shape and remove the T badge (and stick anything else) and people will go gaga over it. And as for the topic at hand, I don't think the performance brand will help the company in any way. People will say all nice things and then say, "Well, after all it's a Tata, let's move on". Things might change over time, but for that to happen, the company should persist with their plan.
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Old 4th March 2015, 23:52   #70
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Default Re: Rumour: Tata Motors to launch performance brand. 120 BHP Bolt coming

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Originally Posted by rajivr1612 View Post
Yeah, but with VW Polo this becomes an elegant and timeless design cue.
The difference, my friend, is in the proportions. In comparison to this Polo the Tata looks obese. Elegance and timelessness comes from proportions. Tata needs to put the Vista/Manza platform behind them double fast, it has done no good to them, unlike the original Indica/go which somehow can still hold a bit of its own. On the Vista/Manza platform, the firewall is too high, the ratio of waistline height to roofline height, too high.

Tata needs to fast-forward the Kite based car and will also need to get rid of the Xeta based engine. They had the opportunity of turbo charging that engine and create a niche long back, but they lost that, now is not the time.
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Old 5th March 2015, 08:26   #71
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Default Re: Rumour: Tata Motors to launch performance brand. 120 BHP Bolt coming

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Originally Posted by Contrapunto View Post
I think both Nano and Aria were great products and showcases of innovation. .
Nano, yes. I think the Nano was shown to us in 2008. Ratan Tata announced his intentions to build the car in 2004 or so.

This was a case of great innovation, in 2004. The country was fascinated by the promise. It remained fascinated by it in 2008. By the time the car was widely available, we had moved on and no one wanted a purely cheap car anymore. We wanted luxuries, smartphones were becoming common, LCD TVs were being bought in ever larger numbers... and Nano looked unappetising to the new Indian. A case of great vision and bad timing. In 2004, when Tata announced his plans, people would have killed each other to lay their hands on a 1 lakh rupee car.

Aria, however, is a different story. At a time when there was demand for regular MPVs, the first small SUVs were being desired, Tata decided to build a big MPV and price it above everything else. At the same time that Mahindra was building on the success of its Scorpio. That was adamant and courageous, yes. Clever? No.
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Old 5th March 2015, 10:09   #72
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Default Re: Rumour: Tata Motors to launch performance brand. 120 BHP Bolt coming

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Originally Posted by srishiva View Post
Is TATA satisfied with the current vehicles that they are emboldened with the dreams of making sport versions?
When there is not much money being made from current products and enthusiast acceptance, is it a good exercise?
Excellent point! Even if a product is a success in terms of volume, the buying group should actually be a deciding point in the making of a "sports variant".

Case in point the Vista & the D90 version. While the Vista has sold in large volumes, the average buyer of a Vista would not be the one who would consider a D90 variant option. Same was not the case with Punto.

Further development on the 120 BHP Bolt should entirely be on the market & PERCEPTION of the Bolt in the coming few months.
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Old 5th March 2015, 12:40   #73
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Default Re: Rumour: Tata Motors to launch performance brand. 120 BHP Bolt coming

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Originally Posted by Contrapunto View Post
Dear BD, I hope and pray your passion rubs off on those around you and we see even limited market experiments with performance variants.
Dear Contrapunto - I hope so too! . As I am "23" years old (ahem!), it is a delight for me to talk to and work with the fresh crop of young engineers and GETs, there's so much energy in them and the best thing is that these guys don't even carry "cabin baggage", let alone "check-in baggage", I feel doubly invigorated.

On limited market experiments, the Vista D90 was infact a limited market experiment of a somewhat performance variant, but you got to get everything in the equation correct. Cost is only one part. 165/65R14s don't cut it any longer, the thingy cried out loud for at least 185/60R15s and now the competition has moved to 16s, oh come on now! I also learnt that black roofs don't necessarily cut it, what is required is DIFFERENTIATION and that is much more than black roofs. Well, I learnt. Thinking ahead, with the fresh crop of young target customers looking at the Bolt now, a new look at a new success equation will be a very exciting thingy to do!

Dear Rohansachar - your comment "the average buyer of a Vista would not be the one who would consider a D90 variant option" - the key is DIFFERENTIATION, NOT CONTINUITY, and it goes beyond black roofs! The successful equation is the one which will provide the value proposition as perceived by this class of target customer and it will go beyond cost also. This is what is known as "LATENT DESIRES"! I believe I happen to know what this list is. I also hope I have been able to give some semblance of an explanation to your statement.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar
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Old 5th March 2015, 13:50   #74
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Default Re: Rumour: Tata Motors to launch performance brand. 120 BHP Bolt coming

First things first, there has to be an element of desirability for a performance brand. Unfortunately an Indica based design is not going to take TATA motors anywhere in terms of being desirable. This will not get sales or good-will unless they come up with fresh and sporty designs.

No matter how much they try to hide the indica underpinnings it is very much visible, and will deter away most folks away from this. No matter how good the rest of the specs are.

My honest and humble opinion - please TATA, gets some really new, fresh and sporty designs. The indica is no polo and the design has aged and is completely outdated.
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Old 6th March 2015, 13:31   #75
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Default Re: Rumour: Tata Motors to launch performance brand. 120 BHP Bolt coming

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The difference, my friend, is in the proportions. In comparison to this Polo the Tata looks obese. Elegance and timelessness comes from proportions.
...
Wouldn't that obesity due to TATA trying to make more interior space? I saw a Zest's rear for the first time today, and for a compact-sedan, it looked quite wide at the upper-half (where the windows are). And then I recalled how the Getz, Jazz and the Indicas were the few hatches with the most interior space and maybe TATA wants to stick to that tradition.
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