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Old 12th March 2015, 21:43   #16
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Default Re: Toyota says "no" to AMT

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Originally Posted by @KP View Post
Am not sure about the "being prone to breakdown" part but I agree with market share. Atleast definitely in India. Infact I was asking in the Feb analysis thread if such info is available somewhere. I guess the reason for the lack of sales of automatic cars is 2-pronged - 1) higher cost of the vehicle and 2) perceived low-mileage from an automatic gearbox

While the 1st reason obviously is true, the 2nd one is definitely a myth these days. Check the mileage numbers coming out of the automatic cards from Honda, VW.
Good decision by Toyota.

Totally Agree to the 2nd point. But the 1st point is also not exactly true. See end of the day it all boils down to the intention of the car maker. With due respects to the AMT's I believe these are short term, 2nd rate "pseudo technology innovation" and should fail so that the car makers are forced to bring out the latest, best and established technology.

There are enough examples out there where conventional auto gears perform better or on par with manual ones. So cost factors, fuel consumption are reasons that are given to fool the public at large. While I agree the costs could be on the higher side in the short term, they can be nullified by volumes. For ex: If Maruti stops selling MT Dzires and sell only AT Dzires with additional 20k will the market still not buy???

As long as we Indians have this "jugaad" and "chalta hai" mentality, all we will get is obsolete or pseudo technology and reasons.

Last edited by GTO : 13th March 2015 at 12:36. Reason: Typo
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Old 12th March 2015, 22:54   #17
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Default Re: Toyota says "no" to AMT

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Originally Posted by kadanaJ View Post
I doubt 90% of automatic buyers even know what kind of transmission their cars have.

I once had a friend with an Audi bent on convincing me that the 'S-tronic' gearbox in his car was not a dual clutch, and that DSG boxes were for "low-end" VW cars.

I'm not sure about Toyota's reasons for shunning AMT, but I can promise you that most automatic buyers wont be able to tell the difference between a CVT / DSG / AMT unless they drive the different cars back to back (and even then, most might not notice any difference).

As for the maintenance claim....well, AMT boxes are still new, and we won't be able to confirm their reliability for a few years at least.
In my state, 99 % of people do not even know what transmission is. "Ah, gear-box? Why didn't you say so?" is how it goes. Speaking of different types, I think torque converter is the best. A perfect middle-of-the-road approach. CVTs drag and crawl and DSG's reliability issues are known to all. I have driven Accord V6 3.0 extensively and I found its torque converter better accelerating than Laura DSG's which I drove back to back with Accord. As for AMT, it has come to be known as lower end of the automatics. So, no wonder Toyota wants to distance itself from it.
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Old 13th March 2015, 01:04   #18
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Default Re: Toyota says "no" to AMT

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Originally Posted by Nitthari View Post
Good decision by Toyota.

Totally Agree to the 2nd point. But the 1st point is also not exactly true. See end of the day it all boils down to the intention of the car maker. With due respects to the AMT's I believe these are short term, 2nd rate "pseudo technology innovation" and should fail so that the car makers are forced to bring out the latest, best and established technology.

There are enough examples out there where conventional auto gears perform better or on par with manual ones. So cost factors, fuel consumtions are reasons that are given to fool the public at large. While I agree the costs could be on the higher side in the short term, they can be nullified by volumes. For ex: If Maruti stops selling MT Dzires and sell only AT Dzires with additional 20k will the market still not buy???

As long as we Indians have this "jugaad" and "chalta hai" mentality, all we will get is obsolete or pseudo technology and reasons.
It also depends on the buyers. I for one would not need AMT. I am comfortable with manual gear shifts.

Most people in India are comfortable with being driven around. Why would these owners be bothered about the mode of transmission?

Toyota is right with their decision.
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Old 13th March 2015, 02:00   #19
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Default Toyota says "no" to AMT

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Originally Posted by Nitthari View Post
Good decision by Toyota.



Totally Agree to the 2nd point. But the 1st point is also not exactly true. See end of the day it all boils down to the intention of the car maker. With due respects to the AMT's I believe these are short term, 2nd rate "pseudo technology innovation" and should fail so that the car makers are forced to bring out the latest, best and established technology.



There are enough examples out there where conventional auto gears perform better or on par with manual ones. So cost factors, fuel consumtions are reasons that are given to fool the public at large. While I agree the costs could be on the higher side in the short term, they can be nullified by volumes. For ex: If Maruti stops selling MT Dzires and sell only AT Dzires with additional 20k will the market still not buy???



As long as we Indians have this "jugaad" and "chalta hai" mentality, all we will get is obsolete or pseudo technology and reasons.

It's not like they are going to shift to dual clutch technology after avoiding AMTs.

Etios and Liva still have no automatic options available. There is no diesel automatic in the Corolla which fights it out against the VW diesel DSGs, neither does their premium MUV. The 35L Fortuner comes with a very ordinary 5 speed torque converter box without even an option to manually shift ratios.

They aren't telling reasons why they are providing a better transmission over AMT. They are just providing reasons for not giving anything at all, the same way Honda used to fret about Indian diesel not so long ago. And I thought something is always better than nothing.

From the frying pan to the fire, is the phrase that comes to my mind.

Last edited by CrAzY dRiVeR : 13th March 2015 at 02:12.
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Old 13th March 2015, 06:16   #20
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Default Re: Toyota says "no" to AMT

LOL! What a load of tosh from Toyota Kirloskar.

AMT is cheap, matches the manuals on fuel economy, and is very convenient. No wonder Indians have lapped it up. And its not that unreliable as Toyota claims here. Else, MSIL wouldn't have offered a 10-Year, 1.6 Lakh KM Warranty On AMT.

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AMT: Built and marketed because the car in question is cheap or a hatch. No one spending 10 or 20 big ones would accept an AMT in their car. At-least I wouldn't

So, where is the logic in going after AMT when their target segment won't accept it? Right decision I say.
And it is not like its limited to use in budget hatchbacks. Formula 1 uses a higher derivative of AMT. Want to come down a bit? Lamborghini uses AMT on the Aventador. Ferrari used it in the 599 GTO. So, AMT is no less exotic in Automotive world unlike Toyota wants us to believe here. As FourWheelDrift rightly said, Toyota themselves offer AMT in the UK market for their Aygo.

Toyota Kirloskar runs a very slow and steady business in India and I think they were just caught out with AMT and are being needlessly defensive here.
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Old 13th March 2015, 08:01   #21
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Default Re: Toyota says "no" to AMT

I may or may not agree with Toyota but I cannot shake of the feeling that AMT are juggad automatics and would not work as well in the long run as proper automatic transmissions.
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Old 13th March 2015, 08:45   #22
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Default Re: Toyota says "no" to AMT

It's not like they are providing any alternatives to the AMT I suppose. Like others have mentioned, their Auto boxes are primitive compared to the competition and they are reluctant to fight VW in the diesel auto market.

I like Toyota for its reliability and fuss free ownership. But this is really a lame excuse from them rather than a reality. Etios and Liva even though are not selling well, will benefit from having an autobox even if it is a CVT.

And as always the 'no market' story. If there is 'no market', create one! i20 established the premium hatchback market when there was none and is now reigning in it. Like the saying goes, a bad workman blames the tools Seems true in this case for Toyota
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Old 13th March 2015, 09:51   #23
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Default Re: Toyota says "no" to AMT

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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
Are there many cars on sale in India with a CVT? It never really caught on in Europe. To some extent it suffered from the DAF stigma. The DAf was a little car and was widely regarded as an old ladies car. It only came with a CVT and in those days that was really rubber bands! Modern CVT actually have a remarkable high tech "rubber" band. Actually not much rubber to it. Its mostely metal, very cleverly engineered so it both pulls and pushes. DAF and its CVT were pioneered by a Dutch guy.
The Altis is CVT, as are many of the higher end cars though they talk about the CVT in microscopic print. By and large many of the 7 and 8-speed ATs are CVT. I think the new City is also a CVT. In fact I have been expecting the CVT to show up in the Brio AT for almost a year.

I may add that most CVTs today have predefined 'gear' bands to minimise the rubber-banding,

Last edited by sgiitk : 13th March 2015 at 09:53.
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Old 13th March 2015, 10:21   #24
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Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
as are many of the higher end cars though they talk about the CVT in microscopic print.
Which are these? Are there many others excluding the Audi A4?
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Old 13th March 2015, 12:53   #25
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Default Re: Toyota says "no" to AMT

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Originally Posted by Nitthari View Post
With due respects to the AMT's I believe these are short term, 2nd rate "pseudo technology innovation" and should fail so that the car makers are forced to bring out the latest, best and established technology.
Toyota India is hardly the last word in 'latest technology'. The Etios makes an ordinary 89 BHP from its 1.5L petrol & 68 BHP from its 1.4L diesel. The Fortuner doesn't get even disc brakes at the rear. The Liva, Etios, Innova & Fortuner are 10 year old designs. They recently introduced 'voice commands' in the 2015 Fortuner and it's a disaster to use (refer to our review for more information).

What path-breaking technology do you see in these cars? Where are the turbo-petrols & dual-clutch gearboxes from Toyota? Don't bring up the Camry Hybrid as it constitutes less than 1% of Toyota India's sales.

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So cost factors, fuel consumption are reasons that are given to fool the public at large.
No offence, but a person who refuses to believe hard facts is a fool. The AMT is cheaper (40K only) and more fuel-efficient than a torque-converter / CVT in regular driving conditions. We got 14 kpl on the Celerio in our test which included high-rpm driving as well as long idling periods with the air-con running (while we shot pictures).

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Originally Posted by pgsagar View Post
I think torque converter is the best.
The problem is, any petrol with a torque-converter automatic usually offers poor fuel economy in city conditions. Just ask i10 owners!

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Originally Posted by subratasenn View Post
Most people in India are comfortable with being driven around.
Not true. Considering chauffeur salaries are now 10K minimum (13K in Mumbai), I'd say less than 5% of cars in India are chauffeur-driven.

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Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
Which are these? Are there many others excluding the Audi A4?
The Camry Hybrid & Kizashi (discontinued) are two other expensive cars that come to mind.
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Old 13th March 2015, 13:55   #26
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Default Re: Toyota says "no" to AMT

I completely agree on this. I had problems with my left leg and I was considering a driver, but then at 13k per month, that translates to 7,80,000 in 5 years. That is exactly the on road price of my Swift Dzire AT. The other issue is that when you need drivers for an emergency, they are never available. They probably will decide to bunk when you want them most.
Pradeep

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Not true. Considering chauffeur salaries are now 10K minimum (13K in Mumbai), I'd say less than 5% of cars in India are chauffeur-driven.

Last edited by pradkumar : 13th March 2015 at 13:56.
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Old 13th March 2015, 20:12   #27
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AMT, the types that are used in Maruti and Tatas may not have the sophistication that some European cars have. But I think it will do the intended job for 1 lakh Kms, at the least. Then it's probably simpler (and cheaper) to replace the control unit than brood over issues. The latest CVTs like the one in Altis, is very goods very less (negligible) rubber band effect. Of course they can't match DSG, but altis is meant for relaxed driving than spirited ones like Jetta or Octavia.
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Old 14th March 2015, 10:42   #28
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Default Re: Toyota says "no" to AMT

@GTO; I agree Toyota, GGM are two names which come to mind for uber reliable cars with absolutely conventional, middle of the road designs.
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Old 14th March 2015, 11:07   #29
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Default Re: Toyota says "no" to AMT

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Originally Posted by kadanaJ View Post
I doubt 90% of automatic buyers even know what kind of transmission their cars have.

I once had a friend with an Audi bent on convincing me that the 'S-tronic' gearbox in his car was not a dual clutch, and that DSG boxes were for "low-end" VW cars.

.

I was told the same thing from the head of sales,Audi,Cochin too when I went for a test drive of the A4, 3 years back.I guess they are group trained to speak this sort of thing.clahttp://www.team-bhp.com/forum/images/smilies/Clapping.gifp:
Wonder whom they are trying to fool in this age of google.I think your friend was told the same thing by the sales guys cause I guess 90% luxury car buying folks are least bit bothered about the technology of the gear box.
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Old 16th March 2015, 11:29   #30
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Seems to me, a case of "Sour Grapes" .
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