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Old 11th March 2015, 12:34   #1
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Default Toyota says "no" to AMT

Found a piece of news today. Toyota will not shift to AMT for any of its cars. The logic is: AMTs are more prone to breakdowns and thus (probably) resulting in higher cost of maintenance.

This is at a time when all the car-makers are showing an interest towards automatic transmissions. That said, the report says automatic cars account for only 3% of the car market. These cars are not also fuel efficient like normal cars.

What do the experts feel on this?

Here is the link:

http://www.hindustantimes.com/htauto...1-1324629.aspx
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Old 11th March 2015, 14:14   #2
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Default Re: Toyota says "no" to AMT

Toyota is the only major manufacturer that does not have any kind of AT option in their < 10L offerings (Basically the Liva and Etios). The big guys -Maruti and Hyundai have AT's (or AMT's) across the range and even the low volume folks like VW, Nissan, Skoda have AT options.

While it is ok to not pursue AMT, it is high time they at least brought in regular AT options to all their products. Today only the Corolla and the Fortuner come with an AT option. Having said that, considering that the Etios and Liva sell in low volumes, probably makes no sense to add an AT variant. From the discussion on the Vios thread, looks like that will come here soon. Hope that comes with a decent AT option.

Edit: The fuel efficiency is more of a myth. A good AT box will give equal or even better mileage than an equivalent manual. The TC's and CVT's from Honda and the DSG/DCT from VW and Ford are good examples.

Last edited by Rajeevraj : 11th March 2015 at 14:16.
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Old 11th March 2015, 14:21   #3
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Default Re: Toyota says "no" to AMT

Quote:
Originally Posted by subratasenn View Post
Found a piece of news today. Toyota will not shift to AMT for any of its cars. The logic is: AMTs are more prone to breakdowns and thus (probably) resulting in higher cost of maintenance.

This is at a time when all the car-makers are showing an interest towards automatic transmissions. That said, the report says automatic cars account for only 3% of the car market. These cars are not also fuel efficient like normal cars.

What do the experts feel on this?

Here is the link:

http://www.hindustantimes.com/htauto...1-1324629.aspx
Most AMTs are in the sub 10 lakh space whereas Toyota want to focus on higher segments (http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...r-segment.html (Shocking! Toyota India admits defeat in the small car segment)). They must have done their cost benefit analysis and realized AMT may not make much sense, given the low volumes.

Not surprising they want to stay with conventional ATs for their higher priced offerings.
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Old 11th March 2015, 14:29   #4
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Default Re: Toyota says "no" to AMT

Am not sure about the "being prone to breakdown" part but I agree with market share. Atleast definitely in India. Infact I was asking in the Feb analysis thread if such info is available somewhere. I guess the reason for the lack of sales of automatic cars is 2-pronged - 1) higher cost of the vehicle and 2) perceived low-mileage from an automatic gearbox

While the 1st reason obviously is true, the 2nd one is definitely a myth these days. Check the mileage numbers coming out of the automatic cards from Honda, VW.
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Old 11th March 2015, 16:46   #5
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Default Re: Toyota says "no" to AMT

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Originally Posted by subratasenn View Post
Found a piece of news today. Toyota will not shift to AMT for any of its cars. The logic is: AMTs are more prone to breakdowns and thus (probably) resulting in higher cost of maintenance.
Higher Cost of Maintenance for the Torque converter is agreeable, but not with the AMT. The very purpose of introducing AMT is to beat the Costs. It doesn't make sense for the higher priced Cars, as the price difference is negligible. AMT is the poor cousin of Torque converter.

But, for the Toyota Company, it's scale of economies work negatively in introducing AMT.
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Old 11th March 2015, 17:09   #6
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Default Re: Toyota says "no" to AMT

Toyota's own CVT in the Altis seemed nice to drive. Why not try to get them into lower ranks.

I dont have much respect for the Liva/Etios range, but with some newer reports about the Yaris, they must definitely bring them in. Maybe cheap AMTs for Etios and nice CVT for Yaris and their smaller SUVs.
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Old 11th March 2015, 17:29   #7
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Smile Re: Toyota says "no" to AMT

Uhh, wasn't it Toyota that admitted to not being able to crack the small car segment a year back ?

Yep, here's the URL: Toyota Admits Defeat (Shocking! Toyota India admits defeat in the small car segment)

Then why all the hullabaloo about Toyota saying no to AMT?

Small cars: Not something Toyota has been able to crack in the Indian market.

AMT: Built and marketed because the car in question is cheap or a hatch. No one spending 10 or 20 big ones would accept an AMT in their car. At-least I wouldn't

So, where is the logic in going after AMT when their target segment won't accept it? Right decision I say.
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Old 11th March 2015, 23:24   #8
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Default Re: Toyota says "no" to AMT

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Originally Posted by sourav9385 View Post
AMT: Built and marketed because the car in question is cheap or a hatch. No one spending 10 or 20 big ones would accept an AMT in their car. At-least I wouldn't
I doubt 90% of automatic buyers even know what kind of transmission their cars have.

I once had a friend with an Audi bent on convincing me that the 'S-tronic' gearbox in his car was not a dual clutch, and that DSG boxes were for "low-end" VW cars.

I'm not sure about Toyota's reasons for shunning AMT, but I can promise you that most automatic buyers wont be able to tell the difference between a CVT / DSG / AMT unless they drive the different cars back to back (and even then, most might not notice any difference).

As for the maintenance claim....well, AMT boxes are still new, and we won't be able to confirm their reliability for a few years at least.
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Old 12th March 2015, 00:04   #9
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Default Re: Toyota says "no" to AMT

It is very odd that Toyota India is publicly disparaging the Automated Manual Transmission technology that Toyota Europe uses in their Aygo, called x-shift.

In the UK, the x-shift AMT is offered as an option and adds GBP 700 (@R94=GBP 1, adds R65,600) to the price of the vehicle.

The Aygo has had an AMT on offer for quite a few years now.

Source : http://www.toyota-europe.com/new-cars/aygo/index.json and http://blog.toyota.co.uk/x-things-yo...ew-toyota-aygo

Cheers,

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Old 12th March 2015, 11:51   #10
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Default Re: Toyota says "no" to AMT

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Originally Posted by @KP View Post
I guess the reason for the lack of sales of automatic cars is 2-pronged - 1) higher cost of the vehicle and 2) perceived low-mileage from an automatic gearbox
The biggest reason is the lack of diesel automatics! The mass market may have over a 100 models on sale, yet the recently launched Zest AMT is the only well-priced diesel AT. All others cost over a million bucks. Further, there isn't a single diesel AT hatchback in the mass market today (X1 & A-Class don't count). This, in a country where 50% of cars are hatchbacks.

Diesel ATs offer excellent fuel economy, much unlike most of their petrol AT siblings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kadanaJ View Post
I doubt 90% of automatic buyers even know what kind of transmission their cars have.
Agreed. However, while they won't understand the technology, they will certainly feel the continuous back & forth movement. To me, this was the biggest deal-breaker of the AMT. From our Celerio review:

Quote:
Despite the start-off from 0 km/h being seamless, itís the following gearshifts that are indeed noticeable. First-time automatic drivers won't have any complaints with the AMT. However, those used to smoother AT gearboxes will definitely notice the compromise. The first time you drive off, you'll be accelerating and there will suddenly be a lull in acceleration when the car shifts up to 2nd gear. You can certainly feel this drop in acceleration, as the clutch disengages and engages, especially from the driver's seat. On your first few drives of the AMT, this upshifting and the resultant loss in acceleration can get annoying. Another example: If you're cruising along at 40 km/h in 4th gear, and you press the accelerator to get a little more acceleration, you'll feel a lull before the acceleration actually kicks in - because the gearbox is shifting down to 3rd gear. On each gearshift, you feel your body move forward due to the mismatch of anticipation and reality. The lag in power during gearshifts is more noticeable during uphill climbs, since the drop in acceleration is more pronounced.
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Old 12th March 2015, 11:56   #11
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Default Re: Toyota says "no" to AMT

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Originally Posted by FourWheelDrift View Post
It is very odd that Toyota India is publicly disparaging the Automated Manual Transmission technology that Toyota Europe uses in their Aygo, called x-shift.
Thanks for the info.

IMO, it's their inability to pierce into the Indian small car market, and to tarnish the image of the manufacturers who use the AMT here, that makes Toyota blabber this.

Last edited by GTO : 13th March 2015 at 12:35. Reason: Typos
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Old 12th March 2015, 12:28   #12
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Default Re: Toyota says "no" to AMT

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Originally Posted by kadanaJ View Post
I doubt 90% of automatic buyers even know what kind of transmission their cars have.
Agree. i think the CVT is the way to go, efficient, light and reliable. Rubber-banding is for people like us, the average driver does not care, and that too has been controlled to a very large extent.
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Old 12th March 2015, 19:54   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
Agree. i think the CVT is the way to go, efficient, light and reliable. Rubber-banding is for people like us, the average driver does not care, and that too has been controlled to a very large extent.

Are there many cars on sale in India with a CVT? It never really caught on in Europe. To some extent it suffered from the DAF stigma. The DAf was a little car and was widely regarded as an old ladies car. It only came with a CVT and in those days that was really rubber bands! Modern CVT actually have a remarkable high tech "rubber" band. Actually not much rubber to it. Its mostely metal, very cleverly engineered so it both pulls and pushes. DAF and its CVT were pioneered by a Dutch guy.

The DAF is mostly remembered for the fact that it drives as fast in reverse as forwards, thanks to its CVT.

So, of course some Dutch chaps introduced reverse racing:

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Old 12th March 2015, 20:05   #14
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Default Toyota says "no" to AMT

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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
Are there many cars on sale in India with a CVT?
Micra / Pulse, Sunny / Scala, Honda City, Toyota Corolla, Audi A4. Can't remember any other! Coming to think of it- I guess you have a big point there! Even dual clutch might have application in more cars with VW group and Ford sticking to this.
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Old 12th March 2015, 20:08   #15
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Default Re: Toyota says "no" to AMT

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
.....while they won't understand the technology, they will certainly feel the continuous back & forth movement. To me, this was the biggest deal-breaker of the AMT......
+1

And that's the biggest reason AMT will always remain with the lower end of the market. Given a choice between a manual clutch and a constantly jerky ride, a lot of people will probably take the clutch and stick shift.

A lazy automatic (CVT) is still acceptable, a quick-shifting DSG/DCT preferable and given both technologies have already made it to cars in the million rupee bracket, there's no reason why they'd want to go back to a less refined option.

Long-term reliability is also still an unknown with AMT in Indian conditions. Plus our market is slowly maturing, people no longer scoff at an 8-10 lacs price tag for a hatchback like they did even 5 years ago.

Last edited by Chetan_Rao : 12th March 2015 at 20:12.
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