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Old 29th July 2015, 09:28   #151
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Default Re: The ridiculous price hikes of German luxury cars - Mercedes, BMW & Audi

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My 2 cents is if you put the aspiration aspect out and strictly speak in monetary terms I don't even see the Logic in the fortuner and Innova pricing because their sales volumes in a month is what the German brands achieve in a year. With those kind of volumes isn't the price supposed to be lower? The fortuner AT 4*4 is well over 30 lakhs OTR in bangalore and i paid 36.5 Lakhs for my X1 here. For that price what I got is a sweet 2L engine with more power on tap than the fortuner, a gear box which I think is well ahead of the one in the Toyota and lot of other niceties that the Toyota doesn't have. This thread has become a German vs Toyota one because of the difference in perspectives of people when it comes to value.
I would actually just say the opposite. The X1 just has a more powerful engine , better badge , better ride and handling than the Fortuner, apart from that the T-Fort owns the X1.

The X1 has very less space inside , it's not a proper SUV , very high maintenance( always worry at how deep your pockets are ) , poor resale , not much features ( base variants ) , useless run flat tires , poor road presence.

Obviously it's not fair to compare them both, but if I would have to choose again it will definitely be a T-Fort.
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Old 29th July 2015, 10:59   #152
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I would actually just say the opposite. The X1 just has a more powerful engine , better badge , better ride and handling than the Fortuner.
Sir those are the exact things I personally look for in a car more powerful, better ride and handling. We have a TFort 4*2 A/T in the family and I think it probably has lesser headroom than the X1 in the middle row. Not to mention the last row is pretty much useless for adults. But yes it does have a bigger boot and the capability to go anywhere. It has more going against it than for it in terms of quality of materials used especially for what it costs.

And let me please clarify I am not making it a German vs Japanese case here but just pointing out that each person has different expectations from their cars and different meaning for what value for money is.
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Old 30th July 2015, 17:57   #153
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Default Re: The ridiculous price hikes of German luxury cars - Mercedes, BMW & Audi

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I would actually just say the opposite. The X1 just has a more powerful engine , better badge , better ride and handling than the Fortuner, apart from that the T-Fort owns the X1.

The X1 has very less space inside , it's not a proper SUV , very high maintenance( always worry at how deep your pockets are ) , poor resale , not much features ( base variants ) , useless run flat tires , poor road presence.

Obviously it's not fair to compare them both, but if I would have to choose again it will definitely be a T-Fort.
It's not fair to compare them, correct. Especially when one is sweet handling, high powered, sporty car like cross over and the other is a bare boned, rough riding pickup sporting macho decals, with high cg. One is luxurious and does justify the brand to an extent, the other is severely overpriced and rides along on brand good will and perceived robustness. Now the question is. ..who is really over priced??
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Old 30th July 2015, 21:30   #154
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Default Re: The ridiculous price hikes of German luxury cars - Mercedes, BMW & Audi

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Now the question is. ..who is really over priced??
I think that is easily answered by seeing the monthly sales data.
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Old 30th July 2015, 22:37   #155
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Default Re: The ridiculous price hikes of German luxury cars - Mercedes, BMW & Audi

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I think that is easily answered by seeing the monthly sales data.
Not really. 'VFM' is a subjective term, 'price' isn't.

A lot of people buy overpriced stuff because they think it's value for 'their' money, that doesn't mean the product itself isn't overpriced.

Even the hardiest customer won't debate whether Toyota India's best-selling SUV & MUV aren't 'over-priced'. Do enough people still find them VFM? The sales chart answers that, undoubtedly.
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Old 31st July 2015, 00:31   #156
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Default Re: The ridiculous price hikes of German luxury cars - Mercedes, BMW & Audi

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Not really. 'VFM' is a subjective term, 'price' isn't.

A lot of people buy overpriced stuff because they think it's value for 'their' money, that doesn't mean the product itself isn't overpriced.

Even the hardiest customer won't debate whether Toyota India's best-selling SUV & MUV aren't 'over-priced'. Do enough people still find them VFM? The sales chart answers that, undoubtedly.
I do not agree to this reasoning at all. Our's is a very price conscious market and if you feel many people think that the Fortuner is over priced , it clearly does not show in the 1500 units / month ( average ) it sells.

If X1 was a good VFM product it might have been on our charts at least at the bottom somewhere , but it isn't. The fact is , the market decides by itself which product is VFM or not.
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Old 31st July 2015, 12:23   #157
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Default Re: The ridiculous price hikes of German luxury cars - Mercedes, BMW & Audi

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I do not agree to this reasoning at all. Our's is a very price conscious market and if you feel many people think that the Fortuner is over priced , it clearly does not show in the 1500 units / month ( average ) it sells.

If X1 was a good VFM product it might have been on our charts at least at the bottom somewhere , but it isn't. The fact is , the market decides by itself which product is VFM or not.

Really now? That way a Maruti Ertiga sells way way more than a Fortuner. Surely more vfm since it sells higher. Also a Mahindra Bolero then.

Also comparing a utility vehicle with a luxury vehicle is futile, a Ferrari or a Bentley will never see the sales figure of a Honda Civic or a Toyota Etios.
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Old 31st July 2015, 12:28   #158
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Default Re: The ridiculous price hikes of German luxury cars - Mercedes, BMW & Audi

VFM - Value for Money, says it all. If it is overpriced, it is no longer VFM.

Have we ever thought on what is fair price?
. Vegetables that are sold by farmer at Rs.10/kg, end up costing the consumer Rs50/kg. One just pays up.
. Clothes which can be bought in downmarket areas for Rs.100, regularly sell at Rs.500 or more in large retail stores. Both have large clientele.
. Does mutton curry bought for Rs. 1000 in a 5 star hotel differ from that bought for Rs. 500 in a smaller restaurant or bought at Rs. 1500 in a Dhaba. After all the mutton costs nearly same to all.

In the end what sells is what a customer wants (VFM or not), what languishes is what they do no.
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Old 31st July 2015, 15:24   #159
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Default Re: The ridiculous price hikes of German luxury cars - Mercedes, BMW & Audi

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VFM - Value for Money, says it all. If it is overpriced, it is no longer VFM.

Have we ever thought on what is fair price?
. Vegetables that are sold by farmer at Rs.10/kg, end up costing the consumer Rs50/kg. One just pays up.
. Clothes which can be bought in downmarket areas for Rs.100, regularly sell at Rs.500 or more in large retail stores. Both have large clientele.
. Does mutton curry bought for Rs. 1000 in a 5 star hotel differ from that bought for Rs. 500 in a smaller restaurant or bought at Rs. 1500 in a Dhaba. After all the mutton costs nearly same to all.

In the end what sells is what a customer wants (VFM or not), what languishes is what they do no.
Good argument; but divergent thinking makes me replace two words from this post. (please don't get me wrong; its just to add another angle of thought) So I am gonna replace 'Mutton at smaller restaurant' with Toyota fortuner and replace 'Fivestar hotel mutton' with BMW X1.

Now lemme read that again. Hmm. I still prefer the grass fed Mutton over the poor quality grain fed mutton that died due to sickness. So what I paid little extra, it was definitely well cooked with special care and hygiene.
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Old 31st July 2015, 16:53   #160
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Default Re: The ridiculous price hikes of German luxury cars - Mercedes, BMW & Audi

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VFM - Value for Money, says it all. If it is overpriced, it is no longer VFM.
The word highlighted in bold is not a quantifiable entity, and that's where the whole debate comes from.

One customer's definition of 'value' can differ (and usually does) from another, and cannot be equated with price.

Even at the same price, one customer may buy a car with bling features but no safety equipment, while another customer buys a vehicle with no bling but all safety features included. Who decides which of the two got 'value' for their money?

Price is quantifiable, VFM is a perception and a matter of variable opinion so there's no simple & direct correlation. Shah Jehan probably believed the Taj Mahal was VFM, doesn't mean the price wasn't exorbitant
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Old 31st July 2015, 21:20   #161
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Default Re: The ridiculous price hikes of German luxury cars - Mercedes, BMW & Audi

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Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao View Post
The word highlighted in bold is not a quantifiable entity, and that's where the whole debate comes from.

One customer's definition of 'value' can differ (and usually does) from another, and cannot be equated with price.

Even at the same price, one customer may buy a car with bling features but no safety equipment, while another customer buys a vehicle with no bling but all safety features included. Who decides which of the two got 'value' for their money?

Price is quantifiable, VFM is a perception and a matter of variable opinion so there's no simple & direct correlation. Shah Jehan probably believed the Taj Mahal was VFM, doesn't mean the price wasn't exorbitant
Correct. I liked the example given
On related example - Mysore palace was then build at a cost of INR 44 lakhs. wonder what that would be in today's money equivalent? Anyways, I think like Shahjehan, Tipu sultan also would have thought "44L heh!, well that seems to be well within my budget"

Not trying to deviate entirely from the topic, instead adding example of consumer behavior vis--vis affordability.
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Old 1st August 2015, 22:16   #162
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Default Re: The ridiculous price hikes of German luxury cars - Mercedes, BMW & Audi

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What you guys are talking about is more the exception than the rule.
=========
Heck, compare the price of the Esteem in 1996 & the Dzire in 2015 and you won't see much difference.
One thing I feel that could be the reason for Innova to jack up their price ridiculously could be the fact that even after more than 10 years on the indian roads, Innova still enjoys a kind of monopoly in its segment. There have been many wannabes such as ertiga and mobilio to name a few, but Innova is still the preferred car of not only luxury cab companies and star hotels, it is also a preferred family vehicle for many belonging to the upper middle class. With its acres of space and fantastic ride quality, none of the wannabes have come remotely close to dislodge innova from the position it enjoys.

But then thats not true for the germans. In fact with the arrival of the jag along with a bunch of SUVs in the the same price bracket as that of the entry level germans, I had in fact thought, that the big 3 will in fact reduce to prices to at least that of the superbs accords and camrys, simply because as rightly pointed out in one of the posts above, the line between D-segment and the entry level germans is very thin currently and hence to increase the footprint as well as get head on into the competition, the germans would be very aggressive in their pricing. But alas I am disappointed.
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Old 2nd August 2015, 09:15   #163
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The point is when you could double the price/profit and still keep on getting higher sales, would you care to lower the price of the product?

Never, period.

The Only situation that brings lower price is fall in sales, I dont see that coming in next 2-3 years.
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Old 2nd August 2015, 20:17   #164
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Default Re: The ridiculous price hikes of German luxury cars - Mercedes, BMW & Audi

I would like to bring in a little thought here.

A cellphone manufacturer today can easily sell every cellphone with 4GB memory at the same price of a less than 2GB model today. However, the manufacturer will not do so, just because they would like to cash in on the fact that people are ready to pay for the specs offered currently, which leaves no reason for the manufacturer to come up and offer a 4GB model for the same price as a 1GB model. and they may easily bump the price when they actually launch a 4GB model to maybe 30-40% more and people will still pay up.

The real reason cars in general (not pointing at specific manufacturer's) cost more year on year has more to do with the analysis a manufacturer does in a country, which is taken very seriously, and this gives the manufacturer's the confidence to jack up the price. A strong market demand (not necessarily huge numbers), easily brings about a price hike.

Huge number of sales per year, should bring down the cost, since the manufacturer recovers money invested quiet quickly (say for example Toyota Innova), The manufacturer clearly here is riding on the goodwill and will continue to do so till there is demand.

Some on the other hand like RE, are working at the same goal of making more money (obviously it's a business) but in a different way, and again using a goodwill that people have in their head about them.

RE products are just above average to my eyes, reliability, design etc are really not up to the point, yet they are driving great sales successfully. I see the following strategies to be the key:-

1) Manufacture slow, keep a fake/virtual demand in place, although their new plant started early last year, the wait time has not gone down much.
2) Point 1 keeps people thinking the quality may have been better and hence the wait.
3) Investors know the strategy and the share price has soared to unprecedented levels in the past few years.
4) 2010 - Eicher Motors Stock Price - INR 1005/- (this was lower than this a decade ago), Today - INR 19070/- (infact it went down was around 21k)
The rise is only due to the demand being created after they realized the new UCE engine is reliable, nothing wrong in that, but selling a sub standard product and creating a false demand to see shareholders happy will not go a long way, bubble will burst.

Bottom line - If there is a market, grass can be sold for 500 rupees a kilo, and even gold may go down to 100 bucks a kilo. just saying.

Last edited by gearbox : 2nd August 2015 at 20:18.
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Old 2nd August 2015, 21:49   #165
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Default Re: The ridiculous price hikes of German luxury cars - Mercedes, BMW & Audi

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... I mean, why would anyone want to buy a Q3 instead of a Fortuner? (Overpriced-yes, but at least you get more space,go anywhere capability, low maintenance costs, bullet proof reliability and good resale value) May be the pull of the four rings is too alluring. I guess as petrol-heads we must be able to understand that classic 'Heart vs Head' tug of war!
This thread is interesting to me: My Fortuner AT is 3 yr old now and I need to sell it and go for a new lease. Instead of Fortuner AT again, I've been toying with the idea of a Q3 or X1, don't know why...
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