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Old 14th April 2015, 21:25   #151
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Originally Posted by D4D View Post
Why can't NGT keep it simple and ask us to roll back the clock and start using bullock carts and Horse driven wagons instead.
Bullocks cows and horses fart out Methane, which is a much more potent greenhouse gas than the CO2 emitted by vehicles.

Imagine a bus carries 60 folks, a bullock cart with 2 bullocks will carry 4. 15 carts with 30 bullocks will actually put out more greenhouse gases than a bus.

On a serious note, pollution readings can be smudged very easily. A recent PUC test for my car showed my car puts out only 1% of the limit of HC and other measurable, which I believe is unrealistic. I'm not confident pollution can be regulated only by the basis of PUC certificates.

This incident also reminds me of the time I had a NSR150 two stroke in Singapore. When I took the bike for a mandatory bi annual bike check, emission test was performed. The numbers kept climbing rapidly on the monitor then the operator pulled out the emission check device when it hit 75% of the limit. We just stared into each other for a second, understood the same happens all over the world.

Last edited by SunnyBoi : 14th April 2015 at 21:27.
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Old 15th April 2015, 08:46   #152
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Unhappy Re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

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Originally Posted by zenren View Post
Even that is no longer an option! Such a move would provoke the Ministry for Animal Welfare to step in and prosecute anyone owning such a vehicle for showing cruelty to animals.

Also, even bullocks and horses are not "emission-free" and can create a public health issue in crowded areas unless the local authorities would go behind each wagon and cleans up.
NGT must explore the possibility of human powered rickshaws, handcart and palaquins. Helps reduce emissions, keep people fit, and employee the unemployed.
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Old 15th April 2015, 12:06   #153
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Default Re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

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NGT must explore the possibility of human powered rickshaws, handcart and palaquins.
Even some humans I know may not get a pass from NGT.

Anyway, there seems to be a reassessment and revision coming: http://indianexpress.com/article/cit...for-two-weeks/

Also, NGT is talking of higher registration charge and possibly a congestion charge. Both solutions are better than a blanket ban based blindly on the age of the vehicle.
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Old 15th April 2015, 12:24   #154
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Default Re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

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Originally Posted by braindead View Post
Even some humans I know may not get a pass from NGT.

Anyway, there seems to be a reassessment and revision coming: http://indianexpress.com/article/cit...for-two-weeks/

Also, NGT is talking of higher registration charge and possibly a congestion charge. Both solutions are better than a blanket ban based blindly on the age of the vehicle.
Its time we file a PIL in the court and ban NGT. That quasi government body is exceeding its limits by a large extent. Ideally all these decisions must be taken by the local civic body (municipality, gram panchayat or the local state/central government). We must not have a motley collection of NGO dictating how this country will live and behave.

Its also high time to revise the rules for formation and registration of an NGO. The owners/participants/workers details must be publicly available along with their income tax assessments and income details. All sources of funding for the NGO must be transparently displayed on their websites.

This move should take care of vested interests trying to either form, shape or change policies and decisions for their narrow benefits.
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Old 15th April 2015, 17:44   #155
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Default Re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

As further proof of what I wrote on the true situation in Delhi-NCR, here is a link to what the doctors are telling patients with respiratory ailments.

Link

Let's get some perspective people.
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Old 15th April 2015, 21:50   #156
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Default Re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

Besides that, the methane which they will keep on passing is also a green house gas again will cause pollution and at the same time is highly inflammable.

Last edited by mustangboss302 : 15th April 2015 at 21:51. Reason: spelling mistake
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Old 15th April 2015, 22:50   #157
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Originally Posted by samarth.bhatia View Post
As further proof of what I wrote on the true situation in Delhi-NCR, here is a link to what the doctors are telling patients with respiratory ailments.

Link

Let's get some perspective people.
I completely agree with the data you shared, but the private diesels are not the one's causing so much pollution, but the generators, commercial and transportation vehicles and industrialisation. These would in total be contributing at least 85% to the problem.
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Old 15th April 2015, 23:22   #158
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Default Re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

The sad truth is of course, as usual, that none of us wants to admit to being part of the problem! We are all pointing to something or somebody else.

I have a beautifully, immaculately restored Royal Enfield. I will spare no expense to keep it in the most, best, running order.

Whilst I would agree that any problems needs to be tackled with the 80/20 rule, I would also submit that pollution in Delhi is to big a thing to point to others. It is not going to be solved unless multiple measures are being implemented. You can argue to your hearts content who should be impacted first, but at the end of the day, all of us living in Delhi are likely to be impacted.

Obviously, I will curse anybody that threatens the classic heritage of India. My 1975 Royal Enfield Bullet is beyond reproach. I spend a huge amount of money every year on it. Truth is, that no matter how much I spend it still spills out more emissions per kilometre than any modern bike!

So people, take a little bit of a more balanced view. If you live in Delhi, and think the pollution and emissions are somebody else's problems i humble submit to you really rethink that, At the same time I will admit I don't have a solution to the individual problems this will cause!! In the USA they had this cash for clunkers program. In Europe they tend to have special legislation for classic vehicle. Never the less, doing nothing is not an option. Unfortunately, my perception after livingi in India for just about three years is that effectively nothing is happening

Everybody is pointing fingers at somebody else to make the firs move. With that sort of attitude nothing is going to change. Call me skeptical if you like, but unless you are willing to accept some personal inconvenience for the benefit of all, it;s just not going to change!

Jeroen

Last edited by Jeroen : 15th April 2015 at 23:25.
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Old 16th April 2015, 09:03   #159
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Default Re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
In Europe they tend to have special legislation for classic vehicle.
What are the laws governing classic/vintage vehicles in Europe, to take care of the pollution issue?
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Old 16th April 2015, 10:01   #160
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Default Re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

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What are the laws governing classic/vintage vehicles in Europe, to take care of the pollution issue?
There are different laws and regulations by country. I think it was George Bush who once said; who do you call when you need to talk to Europe?

But if I had to sum it up for the European countries I'm familiar with here are a few pointers.

In general they will try to limit usage of classic/vintage cars to pure hobby use. So not to be used as a Daily drive. For instance, in the Netherlands all cars older then 25 years were exempt from road tax. Road tax, especially on diesel cars is pretty steep. So there were loads of people running old Mercedes (W123) on diesel, not paying road tax, getting cheap diesel fuel.

So they changed that rule, for diesels it is now 40 years. For all cars 25-40 years you can opt to pay the full normal road tax, or a steeply reduced tariff. If you choose the reduced road tax tariff you are not allowed to use the car during December, January and February. For most hobby classic car owners not a big problem. But the introduction of this new rule, got rid of tens of thousands old diesel cars.

More and more cities around Europe have strict emission requirements. Some make exemptions for classic cars, some don't. If there isn't an exemption you risk a heavy fine for bringing your vintage car into town. Very often completely automated camera bases system, so there is no escaping the fine.

Most of these emission requirements are heavily orientated towards diesel, more so then regular petrol cars.

So its a combination of ensuring vintage (old) cars are only used as a hobby, not on a daily basis, in combination with more and more restriction on usage, with particular focus on diesel cars.

Jeroen
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Old 16th April 2015, 10:08   #161
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Default Re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

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Originally Posted by samarth.bhatia View Post
As further proof of what I wrote on the true situation in Delhi-NCR, here is a link to what the doctors are telling patients with respiratory ailments.

Link

Let's get some perspective people.
Hi Samarth - This is indeed alarming, and I wonder what really triggered this massive increase from 2006-7 till now? We all understand and agree that there is massive pollution problem in NCR, especially in the winters, but there's uncertainty on what exactly is the cause. Is it diesel vehicles, burning open fires, dust storms, cold waves causing the pollutants to stay close to the ground. I dont see the NGT doing adequate research to understand the issue and hence they seem to come up with piecemeal approaches to solve the problem.

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Originally Posted by braindead View Post
Also, NGT is talking of higher registration charge and possibly a congestion charge. Both solutions are better than a blanket ban based blindly on the age of the vehicle.
Thank God, its absolutely unscientific that only the age of the vehicle was a criteria for banning. It should really be about the pollution emitted by the vehicle.
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Old 16th April 2015, 10:14   #162
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Default Re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

I am surprised as to why this bunch of (supposed) do gooders is not going with hammers and tongs at Fuel Adulteration. This will improve pollution level all over. Let the see this forum and see for themselves, as to the pathetic state at the moment with threads on 'Good Fuel bunks in ...'
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Old 16th April 2015, 10:56   #163
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http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/c...w/46939104.cms

A link from the TOI today stating 1 lakh trees have been cut in the past 8 years. No wonder the pollution level had to increase and the lack of oxygen is causing breathing problems. Government allowed to cut trees and now that has bounced back on the public first with less air to breathe and then this ban. At least to compensate the loss they should have asked the metro to plant trees to compensate for the loss. Also the builders should have been forced to have a dedicated green area in the premises of their projects without which their plans should not have been passed or approved. The officials would not have thought of the future damage this could have caused while filling their pockets. Seems there are a bunch of morons in the planning committee.
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Old 16th April 2015, 11:25   #164
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Default Re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

Govt. needs to overhaul the entire PUC issuing system and NGT should first implement the decision of removing all 15 year old vehicles from the roads and check it's impact on the environment.

The problem is that all laws previously made are still not being implemented strictly and the newer ones are being made to tackle the problem.
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Old 16th April 2015, 13:15   #165
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Default Re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
...in the Netherlands all cars older then 25 years were exempt from road tax.
...for diesels it is now 40 years.
...not allowed to use the car during December, January and February.
Assuming a 10- or 15-year-old car, say in the Netherlands, meets prevalent emissions regulations and is mechanically in perfect condition, what would be the action taken - use it or junk it? At what age, usually, are cars in countries of Europe junked?
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Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
...do gooders is not going with hammers and tongs at Fuel Adulteration.
So many issues actually:
- Fuel adulteration
- Pollution from power stations (http://goo.gl/jNISGj)
- Burning of leaves in parks, trash, paper, rubber and plastic etc. despite ban
- Removal of pollution control devices such as catcons by owners
- Zero assessment of emissions from CNG-fuelled engines (it's CNG, it can't pollute)
- Big inefficient diesel gensets with antiquated engines in NCR region
- Antiquated diesel-run construction machinery without pollution control
- Poor road engineering with fuel wastage
- PUC centres that don't test (or fail) polluting vehicles, but just issue certificates valid for 3 months
- Inadequate grass cover causing dust storms

More can perhaps be added to the list by others.

And then there's the NGT's knee-jerk reaction that leaves citizens very angry.

Each one of us needs to go hammer and tongs at ALL the issues holistically and collectively. But the citizens of Delhi have a very common refrain: It's not my city, so I don't care for it.

Edit: Suggestion: Let the government ban any diesel LMV in the city for a period of 48 hours. It would be interesting to note the change in pollution levels. Another week, they can repeat the experiment with all diesel HTVs and HGVs, followed by CNG vehicles, shutting down the neighbouring power stations, all construction activity, etc. The proportionate contribution of each of these can be better assessed with concrete data, without inconveniencing citizens.

Last edited by SS-Traveller : 16th April 2015 at 13:24.
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