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Old 11th December 2015, 15:01   #256
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Default Re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

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Originally Posted by msdivy View Post
Even though diesel fuel is slightly expensive to refine than petrol, the price of diesel is cheaper by a fair margin in India. Hence the folks here rush to buy diesel cars, even though the cost of diesel cars are higher than that of petrol cars. This is because Govt has extra tax on petrol, which makes it costier.

Solution is simple. Govt should tax both diesel & petrol similarly. Demand for diesel cars will fall automatically.
I made that comment in a sarcastic tone. I see lot of people boast they buy diesel cars being addicted to diesel torque and similar bunkum. The damage they are causing to the environment is irreparable.
Anyways if the order is relevant only to govt purchases this discussion is meaning less.
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Old 11th December 2015, 15:12   #257
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Default Re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

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I made that comment in a sarcastic tone. I see lot of people boast they buy diesel cars being addicted to diesel torque and similar bunkum. The damage they are causing to the environment is irreparable.
Anyways if the order is relevant only to govt purchases this discussion is meaning less.
. The point I was highlighting is it is Govt's undoing. They are encouraging diesel fuel by taxing it less. So in effect Govt is funding air pollution.
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Old 11th December 2015, 15:24   #258
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Default Re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

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Originally Posted by msdivy View Post
Solution is simple. Govt should tax both diesel & petrol similarly. Demand for diesel cars will fall automatically.
Diesel is used by trucks for transportation, by the railways for their engines, by the farmers for their tractors and their diesel gensets to pump water, by cabs/busues to ferry people around, its is used by the fishermen as well for their boats and trawlers.

Government has to be extremely cautious about raising the prices of diesel as such a move would have a domino effect, thereby causing an increase in the prices of all dependent services and products.

This would lead to a massive spike in inflation, which is the last thing that we currently want.

Diesel prices cannot and should not be increased without careful consideration of its effects.
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Old 11th December 2015, 15:33   #259
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Default Re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

Chaos again. I see they are planning some additional taxes on commercial diesel vehicles. But do not say if they would allow the smoking vehicles to still enter the city vs the non smoking ones. Such tax amount might be peanuts for a big trucker !

Banning diesel vehicles is not a solution. They should ban polluting vehicles. There are a ton of maruti's at delhi which are poorly maintained and spewing white smoke always. What about them ?


Also, from the TOI link:

"Why can't you think about what designs can protect against accidents? In a DTC bus, the driver should be a the lowest level so that if he bangs anywhere, he is the target first and not the passengers," the Tribunal said.

Read this as well

Dust is a common pollutant. There should be a realistic approach to solving the problem than ban. Or as seen in the recent past, if there is any problem, just ban the issue so that its forgotten rather than looking at the real issues?
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Old 11th December 2015, 16:47   #260
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Default Re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

The tax structure for diesel will never be made equivalent to petrol since it will cause a rise in inflation and widespread protests. The government should look at these measures instead of imposing an outright ban on diesel vehicles.

1) Increase tax on registration of new diesel vehicles so that petrol vehicles become more attractive.

2) Consider imposing EURO- V norms early, Not only will this reduce pollution but the technical upgrades required in diesel cars for meeting EURO V specs will make them much more expensive relative to their petrol siblings.
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Old 11th December 2015, 17:55   #261
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Default Re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

Name:  euro 6.jpg
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Above is a chart showing permissible emission levels of Euro VI standards. This chart was taken from some UK auto website. The permissible level of NoX and PM is almost identical in both petrol and diesel if manufacturers adhere to the norms strictly. The CO2 levels are still double for petrols.

I love diesels, but would gladly move to other alternatives for the environmental cause. What irks me, is the fact that apparently, Petrol is no cleaner than Diesel if manufacturers(auto+fuel) are made to adhere to Euro-V/VI norms. I would love to have a glance through the documents and statistics relied upon by the great NGT to come to this conclusion. The gripe is that while allowing auto conglomerates to keep operating under slack norms, the administration is hell bent on penalizing the common man and curbing our freedom. I find these bans to be motivated by all the wrong reasons.
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Old 11th December 2015, 18:32   #262
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Default Re: No New Diesel Vehicles to Be Registered in Delhi, Says Green Tribunal

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Originally Posted by nkghai View Post
I am hearing news in one channel that this ban is only for govt vehicles and does not apply to personal vehicles
They have banned Diesel govt. vehicles, and have 'advised' a ban on even private diesel vehicle registration. NGT may not have legal power to enforce it, so it may be upto either Delhi govt. or to Supreme Court to issue an order on this finally.
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Old 11th December 2015, 18:32   #263
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Default Re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

I heard in the news that NGT has asked the government not to purchase diesel vehicles. I saw on twitter and heard on news that NGT has asked this policy to implemented on private cars, but it will not be applicable immediately. *This is what I understood*
I was watching a debate on CNN IBN, Hormazd Sorabjee said that this move will help in reducing the pollution only by a very small amount.
He made a very important comment about how Beijing has mostly petrol cars and the air isn't clean there either.

There is no reasoning behind such moves if you ask me. It's an eyewash.


Classic case of the pain in the left hand and balm being applied to the right hand.

Last edited by landcruiser123 : 11th December 2015 at 18:34.
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Old 11th December 2015, 21:54   #264
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Default Re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

If diesel cars are such big pollutants then why do they make up 50 percent of the cars in a developed country such as the UK?

I feel the best way is simply to upgrade the refining infrastructure in the country to produce euro-V fuels and urgently formulate laws to implement EURO V norms in cars. The problem is that the refineries will have to spend thousands of crores to upgrade and with little financial benefit. The car makers will also be reluctant since car prices for diesel cars will increase significantly thereby reducing demand. We have to remember that the rest of the country barring a few cities is still running on EURO 3. As far as I know euro V implementation will take several years.

So as things stand today current diesel cars do pollute more than petrol cars but simply banning them is not the answer. Passenger vehicles simply aren't the sole reason for the pollution. The government may be right in taking steps to dissuade people from buying diesels but simply banning them is not the answer.

Last edited by bullrun87 : 11th December 2015 at 21:55. Reason: spacing
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Old 11th December 2015, 22:42   #265
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Default Re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

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Originally Posted by bullrun87 View Post
If diesel cars are such big pollutants then why do they make up 50 percent of the cars in a developed country such as the UK?
Wrong comparison. London has 26lakh vehicles registered. http://www.uncsbrp.org/driving.htm

Delhi/NCR has 75lakh vehicles. http://www.business-standard.com/art...1900581_1.html

Add to this huge number of commercial vehicles plying through Delhi. Estimated that 86,000 trucks pass thru delhi each day.


London realized the problem long back, created excellent public transport, made private car ownership expensive, with high toll, parking charges and also expensive fuel (a liter costs over Rs.114 in UK, 72% more than india - http://www.kshitij.com/research/petrol.shtml)


India needs similar solutions. We can't think of vehicle ownership as an egalitarian issue. Yes, a class of people will always own vehicles regardless of what it costs (like singapore experiment shows). But, we atleast won't make it cheap for people to pollute. We should have high car prices (through a permit system perhaps), and high fuel prices, but reasonable and well extended public transport.

My hope - By 2030, India will target to eliminate Fossil fuel driven Private cars. 8 US cities and many countries around the world are contemplating the same.
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Old 12th December 2015, 04:45   #266
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Default Re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

Well, well, well!

I never even imagined in my wildest dreams that I would ever utter such a thing in my lifetime, but here I go:

Bravo, NGT, Bravo!!!

Finally, someone in this country has the guts to take the bull by the horns, and go after one of the primary sources of filthy, despicable & satanic particulate matter that is destroying not only the atmosphere, but also the lungs, respiratory systems & bloodstreams of kids, the elderly and indeed every other human being & animal, and the very planet itself!

I truly appreciate this wholly practical, completely far-sighted and thoroughly intelligent move by the NGT to clean up the utterly unbreathable and downright poisonous air in Delhi.

Take a bow, NGT! Well done! Fantastic!

Despite my heartfelt appreciation and thorough praise for this move by the NGT, I seriously doubt this is going to be implemented. And there lies the sad part. Why do I say this?

Simple! It's because of the diesel lobby. The sheer influence they wield on the powers-that-be in this country simply CANNOT be underestimated! Only a fool would think the vicious diesel lobby (that literally has the powers-that-be of this country in its stinking pockets) is going to take this NGT ruling lying down. No, they certainly won't!

Money is surely going to be spent like water, I say. Sacks and sacks of high denomination rupee notes are getting prepared even as I type this, I'm absolutely sure of that.

These sacks of lucre are going to be thrown left, right and centre by the diesel lobby. Politicians, bureaucrats, judges, lawyers, self-styled "environmentalists" and "scientists" - you name it - a whole load of people are going to benefit monetarily and materially very soon. Every trick in the book - legal or illegal, ethical or unethical, clean or dirty - will be employed by the diesel lobby to ensure that this praiseworthy move of the NGT (that affects no one other than the diesel lobby, of course) is scuttled as soon as possible.

Oh! Did I forget to include journalists in that list? Ha, ha, ha! How can I do such a silly thing? Already, there are a few articles by these so-called journalists that describe how CO2 is such a "deadly pollutant", so much more deadly than the "absolutely harmless particulate matter and NOx", and how much more polluting petrol engines are, as they emit more CO2 than diesel engines which are "being unfairly targeted", just because they emit more of the "fresher & cleaner than mountain air" substances like particulate matter and NOx.

Does it even strike such silly morons that pass off as journalists that CO2 is emitted by their very nostrils each and every minute of their pathetic lives? Not only by themselves but also by every other human, animal and plant on this planet? Does it even strike such good-for-nothing journalists that CO2 is a primary ingredient for photosynthesis by plants that is the basis of all life on this planet?

No, it certainly doesn't! CO2 is the most deadly pollutant on Earth, at least as far as such hopeless fellows are concerned. Particulate matter, NOx & SOx are so pure, so harmless and so greatly beneficial, that they ought to be classified as divine gifts to humankind and the planet, while emitters of the deadly CO2 must be eradicated totally (Lol!!!) If this is going to be the case, I hope those who classify CO2 as the most deadly pollutant on Earth eradicate themselves from the blue planet first, since there would be fewer emitters of the deadly CO2 once that is done!

I seriously hope the hon'ble SC backs this ruling by the NGT and forces the Delhi government to implement it. Remember the howls of protest and the dirty tricks that emanated from the very same diesel lobby and those in its pay when the very same hon'ble SC went after the detestable filth-belching diesel commercial vehicles and forced the Delhi government to gradually convert them to CNG?

Who was affected by that? No one, other than the diesel lobby, and that too only temporarily. Who benefitted? The whole of Delhi, each and every born & unborn kid & senior citizen (especially) and indeed each and every human, animal and plant in and around Delhi. So yes, there is already this precedent that going after the emitters of filthy, obnoxious & stinking particulate matter, NOx and SOx has proven to be greatly beneficial to Delhi as a whole. Let the hon'ble SC not forget this great precedent, and how effective that move was in cleaning up Delhi's air at that time.

This time, the diesel lobby will put up much more resistance than the last time around. No doubt about that! They may even get the vile oil mafia (who they are in bed with, almost all the time) to continue to widen the fake, disgusting and artificial gap between the prices of petrol & diesel, by hook or crook, just like they did once both petrol & diesel prices became "de-regulated".

This move of the NGT is far more practical, far more easier to implement, far safer, far less corruption-inducing and most of all, far more effective in combating pollution in Delhi than some wild, irrational, impractical, corruption-promoting and completely ineffective method like the odd-even stuff that is being proposed.

Respect to the NGT for such a far-sighted, courageous & effective move!

Go, NGT, go! Go after one of the prime emitters of the detestable filth that is particulate matter! I hope you succeed in this heroic crusade, at least for the sake of future generations of living beings, if not for the planet we all call home!

Last edited by RSR : 12th December 2015 at 04:53.
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Old 12th December 2015, 07:41   #267
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Default Re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

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Does it even strike such silly morons that pass off as journalists that <i>CO2 is emitted by their very nostrils each and every minute of their pathetic lives? Not only by themselves but also by every other human, animal and plant on this planet? Does it even strike such good-for-nothing journalists that CO2 is a primary ingredient for photosynthesis by plants that is the basis of all life on this planet?

No, it certainly doesn't! CO2 is the most deadly pollutant on Earth, at least as far as such hopeless fellows are concerned. Particulate matter, NOx & SOx are so pure, so harmless and so greatly beneficial, that they ought to be classified as divine gifts to humankind and the planet, while emitters of the deadly CO2 must be eradicated totally (Lol!!!) If this is going to be the case, I hope those who classify CO2 as the most deadly pollutant on Earth eradicate themselves from the blue planet first, since there would be fewer emitters of the deadly CO2 once that is done!
Sir, I'm totally confused now. What does petrol cars emit more? CO2 or CO ? I believe it is CO, the deadly effect of CO(carbon mono oxide) poisoning has been discussed to death in our forums already.
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Old 12th December 2015, 08:19   #268
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Default Re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

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Originally Posted by bullrun87 View Post
If diesel cars are such big pollutants then why do they make up 50 percent of the cars in a developed country such as the UK
Because it was a mistake by the powers that be. Read this link:
http://www.theguardian.com/environme...alth-pollution
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Old 12th December 2015, 09:04   #269
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Default Re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

NGT has taken a decision to ban all new Diesel car registrations in Delhi . It is a controversial decision and was being discussed on all TV News Channels last evening with people holding different opinions.

I have the following points:

1) What is the contribution of vehicles to NCR's Pollution. Differnt studies put it between 25-40 %

2) Even if the vehicles pollute, the new vehicles being registered are in conformity with the existing law and pollute much less than the older vehicles. Despite various cesses and taxes, Delhi Transport Department has just 150 inspectors for enforcing the pollution norms and they just cannot deliver due to understaffing, lacking the infrastucture and tools to carry out thier jobs or plain "chalta hai " attitude.

3) What about the pollution caused by industry, Diesel Gen Sets, dust from construction sites and 2 Wheelers. Car buyers seem to be easy targets as stopping registrations is easier to implement rather than going after polluting genset, industries and construction sites. Banning 2 Wheelers will seem to be an anti aam aadmi act.

4) Are we a Banana Republic where there is no due process of law. Ban first and ask questions later seems to be the attitude of the NGT.

5) Has some one thought about the livelihoods of the people working in auto companies, at auto dealerships who may find themselves without jobs for no fault of theirs.

6) The Auto industry has invested billions in setting up the plants. What kind of message does this decision send out abit India as an investment destination and our institutions ( legislature, executive and judiciary)

7) When the High/ Supreme Court itself had given times to Diesel cabs ( national Permit) holders which are not plying in conformity with the law time till March 2016 to Switch to CNG, is the NGT not being too trigger happy and overstepping its brief.

8) Judiciary's job is to adjudicate and not legislate. They can coax the government to change the laws as per a considered road map. Is the NGT not over stepping its brief. T

While I stongly advocate all steps to reduce pollution, it has to be done in a sensible manner. For years nothing happens, Supreme Court Orders for construction of Eastern and Western Peripheral Expressways is ignored, no action is taken against the bureaucracy and the governments ( both state and central) and one day we wake up and start banning things.

The positive part is that this topic has got every body's attention. I hope it is deliberated in a logical manner and short, medium and long term measures are laid down and implemented effectively.
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Old 12th December 2015, 09:12   #270
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Default Re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

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Originally Posted by mi2n View Post
Sir, I'm totally confused now. What does petrol cars emit more? CO2 or CO ? I believe it is CO, the deadly effect of CO(carbon mono oxide) poisoning has been discussed to death in our forums already.
Diesel cars emit twice as much as CO s their petrol counterparts. RSR is talking about paid journalists who are highlighting the side effects of CO2 to take sides with diesel lobby.
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