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Old 12th December 2015, 09:42   #271
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Default Re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

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Originally Posted by greatgyan View Post
Government has to be extremely cautious about raising the prices of diesel as such a move would have a domino effect, thereby causing an increase in the prices of all dependent services and products.
Govt has no control over crude price. What if crude price rises to $200 per barrel? Can Govt of India prevent it or even absorb the increase? So when oil price increase, all dependent services and products increase. Nobody was prevent that.
Quote:
Diesel is used by trucks for transportation, by the railways for their engines, by the farmers for their tractors and their diesel gensets to pump water, by cabs/busues to ferry people around, its is used by the fishermen as well for their boats and trawlers.
Govt of India is concerned about truckers, farmers, public, the why are they selling diesel at a premium? (Rough estimate: price of diesel per litre if sold in open market in India Rs 40. Price fixed by Govt of India Rs 47).

Last edited by msdivy : 12th December 2015 at 09:45.
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Old 12th December 2015, 09:53   #272
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http://www.financialexpress.com/arti...mes-it/177450/
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Old 12th December 2015, 10:24   #273
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Default Re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

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Originally Posted by rajneeesh View Post
...3) What about the pollution caused by industry, Diesel Gen Sets, dust from construction sites and 2 Wheelers. Car buyers seem to be easy targets as stopping registrations is easier to implement rather than going after polluting genset, industries and construction sites.
Too much unfair interference by the govt has already been a challenge for industries. Also, poor labour that works there would be put to hardship.

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Banning 2 Wheelers will seem to be an anti aam aadmi act.
2-wheelers take ⅓ the road space of a car & far too many cars have single occupants.

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4) Are we a Banana Republic where there is no due process of law. Ban first and ask questions later seems to be the attitude of the NGT.

...
no action is taken against the bureaucracy and the governments ( both state and central) and one day we wake up and start banning things.
Partly agree, but this has been a long standing issue. It's not really 'first ban, then think', its an urgent measure taken for the people's health.

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Has some one thought about the livelihoods of the people working in auto companies, at auto dealerships who may find themselves without jobs for no fault of theirs.
Because they're saints yeah? Don't mean to be curt, but these are professionals, and they're expected to look after themselves IMHO.

And tbh, we've not really taken it upon ourselves to support them at the cost of people's health & city's atmosphere.

Quote:
6) The Auto industry has invested billions in setting up the plants. What kind of message does this decision send out abit India as an investment destination and our institutions ( legislature, executive and judiciary)
Sir, If the govt doesn't take action, who will ?
And they'll invest for their profit, & if we encourage foreign investment in businesses that are contaminating the air we breathe, what's the point ? They'll exploit the little infrastructure we have & exhaust them for private profit.

This excuse of "India's image as an investment dedication" doesn't generally cut it with most fora when Indian lives are at stake. Just saying.

Quote:
7) When the High/ Supreme Court itself had given times to Diesel cabs ( national Permit) holders which are not plying in conformity with the law time till March 2016 to Switch to CNG, is the NGT not being too trigger happy and overstepping its brief.
What about numerous orders by the same courts since the 1980's(!) demanding that the govt takes steps to curb the present situation ? It's really not a sudden ban. Previous governments haven't given this issue due attention.

Quote:
8) Judiciary's job is to adjudicate and not legislate. They can coax the government to change the laws as per a considered road map. Is the NGT not over stepping its brief. T
Sure, such judicial activism is not technically within their jurisdiction, but it's the necessity in current scenario.

Let's see.
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Old 12th December 2015, 10:27   #274
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Default Re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

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Originally Posted by sourabhzen View Post
Diesel cars emit twice as much as CO s their petrol counterparts.
Please refer to my post #261 wherein permissible levels of CO emissions are atleast twice as much for petrols over diesels since Euro II norms. Is the chart incorrect ?

Further quoting from : http://www.air-quality.org.uk/26.php

Quote:
Emissions from Diesel Vehicles
Diesel fuel contains more energy per litre than petrol and coupled with the fact that diesel engines are more efficient than petrol engines, diesel cars are more efficient to run. Diesel fuel contains no lead and emissions of the regulated pollutants (carbon monoxide, hydrocarbons and nitrogen oxides) are lower than those from petrol cars without a catalyst. However, when compared to petrol cars with a catalyst, diesels have higher emissions of NOx and much higher emissions of particulate matter.
Also quoting from Wiki : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_exhaust

Quote:
For instance, diesel engines generally produce 28 times less carbon monoxide than gasoline engines, as diesels burn their fuel in excess air even at full load.
However, wiki also shares the major demerits of diesels in the same article which is worth noting.


P.S.: I'm definitely not debating this topic as the cause is noble. However, we need to make sure that such extreme decisions are effective to serve such noble cause.


I also took the liberty to glance through the Panel members of the NGT and while there are a few very accomplished members(to opine on environmental causes) listed in their site (under expert members), the panel is filled mostly with Judges and IAS/IFS officers. That's some food for thought right there! Determinations do matter and I hope the determinations are being made by the right people.

Last edited by mi2n : 12th December 2015 at 10:29.
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Old 12th December 2015, 10:48   #275
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Default Re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

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Originally Posted by mi2n View Post
Please refer to my post #261 wherein permissible levels of CO emissions are atleast twice as much for petrols over diesels since Euro II norms. Is the chart incorrect ?

I also took the liberty to glance through the Panel members of the NGT and while there are a few very accomplished members(to opine on environmental causes) listed in their site (under expert members), the panel is filled mostly with Judges and IAS/IFS officers. That's some food for thought right there! Determinations do matter and I hope the determinations are being made by the right people.
Sorry, I missed that post. However, crux of the matter is that heavy pollutants from diesel remains dangerous for us. There are several articles on internet that indicates that the dangers were known to government before first Tata Indica went into production but they ignored it to suit their interests.

On qualification front, that's how India works, the Art graduate turned IAS officers decide how much should be spent on spacecraft's tech and they in turn are dictated by illetrate Politicians.

P.S. my next car is diesel, if I get it that it's

Last edited by sourabhzen : 12th December 2015 at 10:55.
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Old 12th December 2015, 14:35   #276
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Default Re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

An illiterate (in technical terms) judiciary powered by looney activists makes for a lethal combination. When supported by and equally nutty government the mix is even better.

So watch the fun, who will definitely profit are the baksheesh takers!
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Old 13th December 2015, 12:15   #277
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Default Re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

Found this UK article which says how Diesel fumes are more harmful than petrol

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/j...s-worse-petrol

Diesel fumes are significantly more damaging to health than those from petrol engines, according to research which shows that related air pollution contributes to lung disease, heart attacks, asthma and other respiratory problems.

This is according to the study by Department for Energy and Climate Change

So Diesel might be on par or better than Petrol as far as green house gases are concerned but its deadly when it comes to health related issues
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Old 13th December 2015, 14:29   #278
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Default Re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

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Originally Posted by RSR View Post

This move of the NGT is far more practical, far more easier to implement, far safer, far less corruption-inducing and most of all, far more effective in combating pollution in Delhi than some wild, irrational, impractical, corruption-promoting and completely ineffective method like the odd-even stuff that is being proposed.

Respect to the NGT for such a far-sighted, courageous & effective move!
We are a "Ban-Happy" country are we not? We wait for a situation to get out of hand and cover our incompetency by implementing a ban like an unpredictable tantrum throwing kid. What were these so-called policy makers waiting for? Overtaking Beijing?

The Diesel car sale was on a boom particularly in the last decade, Hell, even Honda had to strategise their Indian operations on their newly developed for India diesel engine. During all these years were these "Knowledgeable" people unaware of the consequences of rise in the Diesel car consumption?

And If at all Diesel cars have to be banned why only Delhi?? are we waiting for other cities to top the pollution charts till we pass a gag order there too?

Has anyone there ever heard of the term "preventive measures" ? The NGT seems more like a post-mortem agency than a problem solving organisation.

Quote:
Partly agree, but this has been a long standing issue. It's not really 'first ban, then think', its an urgent measure taken for the people's health.
Its a knee-jerk reaction taken after years of inactivity over important environment issues. Due to the incompetency of these policy makers the Auto industry and common folk have to bear the brunt and lay their heads at the altar of sacrifice. Its time we questioned that. Im appalled that the situation had to get so bad and people themselves have to take these measures for rescuing their habitat due to inefficient administration.

Quote:
Because they're saints yeah? Don't mean to be curt, but these are professionals, and they're expected to look after themselves IMHO.
Quote:
And tbh, we've not really taken it upon ourselves to support them at the cost of people's health & city's atmosphere.
Quote:
Sir, If the govt doesn't take action, who will ?
And they'll invest for their profit, & if we encourage foreign investment in businesses that are contaminating the air we breathe, what's the point ? They'll exploit the little infrastructure we have & exhaust them for private profit.

This excuse of "India's image as an investment dedication" doesn't generally cut it with most fora when Indian lives are at stake. Just saying.
Its not about "India's image as an investment dedication" The money invested is shareholders money, apart from Banks and NBFI's. To say these losses are the risk of the company solely, its not as simple as that. At this time of inflation, policies should be implemented carefully in a time-bound manner in which no one suffers. Remember we are not talking natural disasters but a situation which has manifested over the years.

And as far as "professionals" are concerned, why should they bear the brunt of inconsistent govt. policies? At the age of 50 asking a professional to leave his/her job to some other vocation because some sleeping babus have woken up to find the pollution levels unacceptable and they have chosen the most convenient method to show their concern, it seems right to you? It wont if you are at the receiving end of it.

Quote:
What about numerous orders by the same courts since the 1980's(!) demanding that the govt takes steps to curb the present situation ? It's really not a sudden ban. Previous governments haven't given this issue due attention.
Not a sudden ban?? You wake up one morning to find you cannot buy a diesel car, if that is not sudden I don't know what is. Its not about the ban rather than the manner in which it is being implemented.

Now where does this leave the TUV 300 and S-Cross ? What do makers like M&M and MUL do? hire a psychic to forecast future govt decisions?

When Delhi overtakes Beijing in pollution charts, who is responsible?
Inefficient methods of PUC verification? that can remain.

Sorting out and disallowing unhealthy cars? Ah! too much work

Encourage public transport by expanding infrastructure? cant come to a settlement amount on the kickback from tender appliers.

Growing pressure! what do we do? Bingo! Ban Diesel sales, that should show them how much we care about the little children of Delhi.

After all this lot of money will be passed here and there and a settlement will be reached till the next scapegoat is found.
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Old 13th December 2015, 17:41   #279
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Default Re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

How many liters of Diesel, tonnes of CO2, SPM, NOx will a setup like this save for the environment?

http://blog.su-kam.com/how-solar-pow...lacs-per-year/

The entire setup pays for itself within 3-4 years in just electricity bills. The shelf life of the panels is ~25 years. People shouldn't mind if the system is helping them save money over the remaining 20 years.

What if such a system is made compulsory for all commercial buildings and smaller 1.5/3 KW units on the rooftop of every Diesel car owner if they want to get a certificate to drive their older than 10/15yr Diesel car.

How much will the peripheral areas, which face 8 hour power cuts on a daily basis, benefit from such a move by the Govt?

My rudimentary knowledge tells me that a Diesel genset uses ~0.2 liters of Diesel for every unit (KWh) of electricity produced. SuKam(in the linked article) is technically saving ~4400 liters of Diesel (maybe more?) from getting burnt somewhere in NCR for generating electricity every year and saving on emissions in the process. That's about the same amount of diesel an average car uses in 5-6 years.

Extrapolate this with more efficient lighting(LED), (solar) water heating and (inverter) refrigeration, a substantial amount of emissions can be avoided at source and can help improve the quality of air all over NCR.
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Old 14th December 2015, 12:18   #280
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Default Re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

Today's FT has an article on diesel car ban. Key highlight:-
Quote:
"A still to be published report of IIT Kanpur mentions that passenger vehicles contribute 4 per cent of particulate matter in Delhi out of which about 85 per cent is contributed by vehicles which are vehicles prior to BSIV. So BSIV vehicles are contributing only 0.5 per cent to the total PM2.5 load in Delhi," Mahindra & Mahindra Executive Director Pawan Goenka said in a conference call.
This is the right way to go. Have a thorough & trustworthy report with some hard number crunching. And then make logical decisions.

Quote:
Hyundai Motor India Senior Vice-President marketing and Sales Rakesh Srivastava said: "Auto industry has already made plans to invest in diesel technology as per BSV emission norms to be implemented by 2019 and such decisions can negatively impact the industry."
Respective government authorities should give a serious view to create robust road map for the automobile industry for the future, he added
Yesterday on the radio, I heard a Delhi govt advertisement- Photograph a polluting vehicle and share it via a special govt. mobile app, and the govt. will take action. The first target must be polluting and very old commercial trucks and buses.
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Old 14th December 2015, 12:29   #281
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Default Re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

Someone has a short memory. You define BS-whatever and then let the vendor, customer, and market decide. This was the argument of Mr Nariman which was upheld by the SCI. Now what has changed. If need be jack up the BS specs. Why have we allowed a relaxation in Sulphur norms, I hear to pander to our GREAT mocs.
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Old 15th December 2015, 17:14   #282
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Default Re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

Et Voila! I was expecting something like this to roll out soon enough, just didn't expect sheer lunacy to be so vividly displayed!

Source:

http://www.ndtv.com/delhi-news/will-...-lateststories

Quote:
...rich people can't go around in SUV's polluting the environment and agreed to ban registration of diesel SUVs and cars over 2000cc. The final order will passed tomorrow.


Am I crazy or does this seem like the stupidest thing ever?
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Old 15th December 2015, 17:40   #283
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Default Re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

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Originally Posted by sourav9385 View Post
Et Voila! I was expecting something like this to roll out soon enough, just didn't expect sheer lunacy to be so vividly displayed!

Source:

http://www.ndtv.com/delhi-news/will-...-lateststories



Am I crazy or does this seem like the stupidest thing ever?
It is not as bad as blindly saying all diesel vehicles on the road more than 10 years old are 'invalid'. It will make sense to put the cc cap on diesel vehicles, but only for the ones which will be registered henceforth. This is in line with the global trend of down-sizing in terms of engine capacity
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Old 15th December 2015, 17:50   #284
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Default Re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

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Originally Posted by blue_pulsar View Post
It is not as bad as blindly saying all diesel vehicles on the road more than 10 years old are 'invalid'. It will make sense to put the cc cap on diesel vehicles, but only for the ones which will be registered henceforth. This is in line with the global trend of down-sizing in terms of engine capacity
If they have to do it it should be on the emission and not cc. What if a 2 litre engine is cleaner than a smaller 1600 cc engine or a 1300cc engine. How is that justified?

It also means all the diesel cabs (most of which are hatches except probably Innova) will continue to be registered and will continue to pollute.

People will probably go and register it in Gurgaon and Noida and will they stop them or charge a green tax on them also when entering Delhi?

While the objective is laudable the method seems questionable. This doesn't make any sense to me.

Last edited by Mohan Mathew A : 15th December 2015 at 17:52.
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Old 15th December 2015, 18:40   #285
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Default Re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

Personally, I am not sure if such a ban can be effective or if it's even sensible.

However, drastic measures seem to be becoming the norm when it comes to climate and pollution across the world. In the future, I expect more such bans from other cities as well. Maybe not private vehicles, but on emission of commercial vehicles and industries. We are going to have to accept the fact of largely pedestrian (public transport) cities in the future.

Moral of the story: Fast petrols for the weekend.

Cars might go the two wheeler way. When I was in college 15 years ago, everyone had a motorcycle. Now, scooters are more efficient and have lost their stigma. So all you see in the parking lots these days are scooters and 1+ lac bikes. Maybe something like that will happen to the car market as well.
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