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Old 8th April 2015, 08:18   #31
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Default re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

We all need clean air and we all want to leave a cleaner and safer environment to posterity. However, attributing poor air quality entirely or even mostly to diesel vehicles more than 10 years old is not right.

Particulate matter in air is not just diesel soot or carbon / NOx from vehicular emissions. We have industries contributing to this as well. What about millions of diesel gen-sets that are necessitated due to poor power generation?

A software company building in Bangalore housing 5000 employees burnt 21000 liters of diesel in the month of March 2014 alone (displayed on the board outside the captive unit). My diesel car has done 87000 km in 3 years and still has not burnt as much diesel

Gen-sets now need to comply with CPCB norms for air and noise pollution, but how many are checked post sale, and how often? How many old gen-sets are banned due to old age alone?

On the other side, the current approach of identifying polluting vehicles through periodic pollution screening is not working. We have found a way around that, and its showing.

If this system was effectively implemented, lot of polluting vehicles would have gone off the road now, and we would have seen some improvement.

I am sure we will find a way around this too. Its in our nature. We have found subversive ways to defy laws in body and spirit.

The "swachch bharath" that we talk about, should start from within. We need to be socially responsible.

Every time we break a law, we invite a harsher one.

Instead of formulating impractical laws , it would be a good idea to take help of technology, enforce existing laws well, and bring in some on-board exhaust treatments which can be fitted on older vehicles and make them compliant.

Last edited by autocrat : 8th April 2015 at 08:31. Reason: Addition
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Old 8th April 2015, 09:08   #32
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Default re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

People are unnecessarily getting worked up. This order hurts a large number of people, no doubt, but it will help even more people in the long run.

It is impractical to search each and every polluting vehicle and ban it, so easy way is to set a cut off age. Some good vehicles will be affected, and some bad ones will sneak through, but net effect is that most polluting vehicles will be off Delhi streets.

BTW, this is not a ban on vehicles as such, just a ban on plying on Delhi roads. They could be sold and used elsewhere. True, some people would have to buy new cars, but that's a small price to pay for the greater good.

Every law creates inconveniences, to some people. What needs to be evaluated is whether it serves the greater good, and in this case, I think it passes the test.
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Old 8th April 2015, 09:10   #33
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Default re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

Look at at this way: people with 10 year old diesel cars enjoyed subsidised fuel or at least fuel that was cheaper than petrol even though it was justified. This went on till 2014-15. Now the bill for that should hopefully be in the mail.

Higher diesel prices have already caused a slowdown in diesel vehicle sales. This could lead to a further slowdown. New flow reduces and old stock gets off the road. Make it 5 years (!!!) and the entire diesel vehicle market could collapse.

People complain of arbitrary measures. But something is better than nothing and maybe the Govt will stop procrastrinating and start acting and come out with a effective policy that should be implemented.

My car is cleaner but trucks are dirtier: The analogy. Oh yeah, I smoke low tar or low nicotine compared with regular cigarettes. That does not matter: cigarettes are a highly effective cancer delivery device.
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Old 8th April 2015, 10:24   #34
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Default re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

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Originally Posted by vasudeva View Post
Look at at this way: people with 10 year old diesel cars enjoyed subsidised fuel or at least fuel that was cheaper than petrol even though it was justified. This went on till 2014-15. Now the bill for that should hopefully be in the mail.

H
Sorry for the mistake. Diesel fuel being cheaper or lightly taxed was not justified at all.
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Old 8th April 2015, 10:54   #35
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Originally Posted by vasudeva View Post

My car is cleaner but trucks are dirtier: The analogy. Oh yeah, I smoke low tar or low nicotine compared with regular cigarettes. That does not matter: cigarettes are a highly effective cancer delivery device.
Your analogy is ridiculous. A diesel pollutes, but your petrol car is cleaner, should, by that stand, be the true one. Why not ban 10 year olds across the board? That's a "low tar" cigarette, and also a highly effective cancer delivery device.
Try and do that, and see how up in arms your own self would be.
Rather than bring a system like an mot test that at least looks to have been drafted by men, they decided to come out with a system that seems to have been drafted by monkeys.
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Old 8th April 2015, 11:06   #36
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Default re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

10 year rule might weed out lot of polluting vehicles. But they need to make sure every other vehicle is not polluting. Why not put some onus on manufacturer to make sure the vehicle is maintained and certified by workshops every year? It should cause lot of problems to Indian manufacturers but so be it.
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Old 8th April 2015, 11:14   #37
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Default re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

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Originally Posted by sonics View Post
The Lifetime Taxes Paid and Registration Certificate itself is valid for 15 years. How could they phase out vehicles at 10 years of age? Will the RTO refund the extra taxes collected?
Valid point. You cannot simply wake up on a fine morning and pass an order that all diesel vehicles over 10 years will be banned from here on. The Govt. has already collected taxes for 15 years in advance. And they have the PUC mechanism to keep a check on the pollution caused by exhaust gases. Now it is upto the Govt. to fix its sick as hell PUC business to set things right. Implementing another ridiculous rule is not done. And vehicles manufactured after 2000 are much cleaner and lighter on the environment than pre-2000 ones. And here we are talking 2005!

On another note, I do not see it getting implemented.
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Old 8th April 2015, 11:20   #38
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Default re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

Quote:
Originally Posted by vasudeva View Post
Look at at this way: people with 10 year old diesel cars enjoyed subsidised fuel or at least fuel that was cheaper than petrol even though it was justified. This went on till 2014-15. Now the bill for that should hopefully be in the mail.

Higher diesel prices have already caused a slowdown in diesel vehicle sales. This could lead to a further slowdown. New flow reduces and old stock gets off the road. Make it 5 years (!!!) and the entire diesel vehicle market could collapse.

People complain of arbitrary measures. But something is better than nothing and maybe the Govt will stop procrastrinating and start acting and come out with a effective policy that should be implemented.

My car is cleaner but trucks are dirtier: The analogy. Oh yeah, I smoke low tar or low nicotine compared with regular cigarettes. That does not matter: cigarettes are a highly effective cancer delivery device.
Sir, no one is disputing the need for cleaner air. We all understand and agree about the perils of air pollution, especially from the higher particulate matter from diesel engines.

However, Would not the air be cleaner if the rule was to scrap vehicles polluting more than a defined limit rather than based on age?

Ponder over that for a bit. IMO It would put the focus back on polluting vehicles, irrespective of the age of the vehicle. Surely you agree that it would be ridiculous for a 3 year old vehicle to be allowed if it was polluting more than a 10 year old vehicle.
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Old 8th April 2015, 11:21   #39
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Default re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

I have a perfectly healthy 10 year old diesel vehicle. It has been serviced on time every year and is used for small commutes. I am willing to get this exchanged.

Now, the problem is that with this order, I won't get anything in Delhi.

So, will the NGT help me in offering a subsidized upgrade plan to a petrol car?

1. If not, I paid certain amount as road-tax for a period of 15 years. Will the NGT return 5 years of road-tax with an interest liability for 10 years? I mean, assuming I paid 50,000 in road tax, the NGT should make efforts to return 1/3rd the amount with an interest equivalent on this amount. That alone would be in excess of Rs. 35,000/-.

2. Alternatively, I will buy a new petrol car and you give me a free road-tax permit for 15 years to make good the loss I am making due to this abstract decision.

If the Government cannot foresee problems emanating out of diesel cars, they should have made a policy long time back and given a period of 2-3 years for people to move away from diesel cars.

A knee-jerk reaction and directive will not do any good to anyone.

For all those folks who are happy saying that diesel pollutes and so on, I have one word of advice. Careful. You never know that in 6 months time the NGT may pass a similar directive for petrol cars too. Because, whosoever passed this directive has done this to show paper-action for a problem that is so much real.

For a start, as a Delhite, I can suggest a few real solutions to the problem:

1. Stop sweeping Delhi the way you have been doing it for past 65 years. All dust is swept off the road surface and it just moves from the surface to the air.

2. Open more CNG pumps so that filling it does not add to the pollution seen at the pumps.

3. Ban tractors in Delhi. They are the biggest polluters and on most times can be seen transporting waste.

4. Ban burning of plastic and leaves.

5. Ban the use of generators as these are diesel guzzlers.

There could be many more. But, the point is, why single out the car owners?
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Old 8th April 2015, 11:27   #40
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Default re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdhawan15 View Post
1. If not, I paid certain amount as road-tax for a period of 15 years. Will the NGT return 5 years of road-tax with an interest liability for 10 years? I mean, assuming I paid 50,000 in road tax, the NGT should make efforts to return 1/3rd the amount with an interest equivalent on this amount. That alone would be in excess of Rs. 35,000/-.

2. Alternatively, I will buy a new petrol car and you give me a free road-tax permit for 15 years to make good the loss I am making due to this abstract decision.

If the Government cannot foresee problems emanating out of diesel cars, they should have made a policy long time back and given a period of 2-3 years for people to move away from diesel cars.

A knee-jerk reaction and directive will not do any good to anyone.
Very interesting perspective and you make some very valid points. This indeed seems to be a knee jerk reaction, and will likely not stand scrutiny in a court of law. The only problem is that some dolts make such hare brained laws and people have to waste their time fighting against them in the already overburdened courts. If this law is repealed by a court of law, then the person who made this law should be made accountable. Possibly commutation of pension and all future government benefits. That will ensure that babus think these laws through before passing them.
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Old 8th April 2015, 11:36   #41
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Default re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

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Originally Posted by mayankk View Post
Try and do that, and see how up in arms your own self would be.
Perhaps you should read my post at 14 before jumping to conclusions please.

To recap, I had my personal opinion
`Personally I will gladly with banning 15 year old petrol cars too. No more comments.'

Last edited by vasudeva : 8th April 2015 at 11:37.
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Old 8th April 2015, 11:49   #42
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Default re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

Hope to see quite a number of LC Series 80's and Patrol Y60's in the various classifieds forums soon !
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Old 8th April 2015, 11:50   #43
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Default re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

1. How do first world countries, such as the USA, UK or those in Europe, manage their old cars and prevent them from polluting?

2. What prevents the rolling out of Euro-5 / Bharat Stage-V emission norms in India?

3. Which Indian automobile manufacturer has EVER verifiably re-certified any single vehicle it manufactured 3-5 years ago, to be still compliant with BS-II/BS-III/BS-IV norms?

4. Has anyone ever checked whether pollution control devices installed in their vehicles (EGR, catcon, etc.) are still functional after 5 years of use, irrespective of fuel used? If failure to meet pollution standards is due to such reason, is it greener to replace such devices, or the whole vehicle? Otherwise, why should 5-year-old vehicles not be scrapped?

5. What is the decline in sales figures of automobiles in India over the past 5 years, vis-a-vis their peak production capacity?

6. Does air quality in Meerut / Kanpur / Bhopal / Asansol etc. not matter, because people do not need to breathe clean air there? Compared to these cities, what is the air quality index of Delhi?
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Old 8th April 2015, 12:09   #44
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Default re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

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Originally Posted by kisharchit View Post
I travel in a 2002 Toyota Qualis which has done 9 lac kms. It is maintained perfectly well by my cab driver and can easily last 5-7 more years. He has couple more old qualis in his fleet. What does he do? Change all of them? Not easy. Imagine their plight!
What plight? These figures clearly indicate that he has extracted enough profit from these cars. He will easily find buyers in neighboring states if these cars can last 5-7 years more.

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Originally Posted by adisag View Post
I'm more concerned about what happens to the actual car, will it stand on the side of the road, blocking up valuable road space and increasing traffic jams and congestion? will it be scrapped and end up in a toxic landfill?
They will be recycled or sold to neighboring states.

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Originally Posted by srishiva View Post
Who is NGT? In this country everyone passes any order. Shouldn't the govt solicit advice but still take decisions? That way you can kick them out in the next election?
Government is constituted of politicians and they are worried about their own pockets only. When SC ordered to ban diesel buses in Delhi, the State Transport minister was the first one to oppose the ban.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dry Ice View Post
Why are these guys so hung up on 'ban'? Instead of banning vehicles and setting up checks on border, why don't they fast-track building of the peripheral road (KMP expressway)?
Couldn't agree more. KMP will reduce Delhi's suffering by half.

Quote:
Originally Posted by samarth.bhatia View Post
Let me tell you guys something - our city needs drastic measures right now. A lot of these are going to be unpopular, no doubt.
Absolutely, and we should be more concerned about our 5 year old kids than 10 years old cars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by luvtandon View Post
What I want to know is why this partiality with only Delhi. NGT stands for NATIONAL Green Tribunal. Then why this dictatorial attitude towards Delhi only. Won't those vehicles pollute those cities too where they will be transferred. Don't the other cities deserve to be pollution free too.
Sooner or later there should be some ruling or measure to reduce pollution in other cities too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sleepyk View Post
I think the way to go would be to start doing British-style MOT inspections on cars over a certain age.
The have to get it done for cars over 3 years old. Maybe we can make it mandatory for cars that are around 5/10 years old, based on expert opinion.
I agree with you but knowing Delhi, MOT inspectors will start pocketing cash to give any body a fitness certificate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
2. What prevents the rolling out of Euro-5 / Bharat Stage-V emission norms in India?
4. Has anyone ever checked whether pollution control devices installed in their vehicles (EGR, catcon, etc.) are still functional after 5 years of use, irrespective of fuel used? If failure to meet pollution standards is due to such reason, is it greener to replace such devices, or the whole vehicle? Otherwise, why should 5-year-old vehicles not be scrapped?
5. What is the decline in sales figures of automobiles in India over the past 5 years, vis-a-vis their peak production capacity?
6. Does air quality in Meerut / Kanpur / Bhopal / Asansol etc. not matter, because people do not need to breathe clean air there? Compared to these cities, what is the air quality index of Delhi?
My thoughts on your point:
2. Automotive manufacturers' lobby.
4. In Gurgaon, the PUC certificate provider just want your car's presence to take picture. Most of them never check the car as per procedure.
5. Decline? Production capacity is increased to meet market demand. This ruling will definitely increase demand for newer cars.
6. The air quality in other city may be acceptable limits and it is definitely nowhere close to what we breathe in Delhi.
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Old 8th April 2015, 12:30   #45
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Default re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

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Originally Posted by sourabhzen View Post
6. The air quality in other city may be acceptable limits and it is definitely nowhere close to what we breathe in Delhi.
Heard of the Northern India haze. The air quality across most of India is bad but especially poor in Northern India. Seen early morning TV coverage of cricket matches in Northern India and compared with other places.

http://visibleearth.nasa.gov/view.php?id=72398
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Nat...ew.php?id=9145

I am not arguing with you since you made sensible points but Northern India haze and smog is visible and is partly due to human activity but also due to atmospheric patterns.
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