Go Back   Team-BHP > BHP India > The Indian Car Scene


Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 8th April 2015, 12:56   #46
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Delhi
Posts: 2,175
Thanked: 128 Times
Default re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

In fact, haze caused by non-transport sources of pollution (burning wood, industrial and agri waste) has been a long standing problem. In my childhood during the 1970s, it existed and when we used to travel in a scooter, our face got covered with mild amounts of soot and black matter. But breathing was much easier and transport stock in Delhi much lower. If I recall, I first started to appreciably notice air and transport pollution in the late 1980s when I was in late teens and so lungs were young and their performance was quite good.

These days, my teenage kid (15 years) suffers from cough and cold through the winters and his cough days would be around 30-40% of winter period (Dec-Mar).
vasudeva is offline  
Old 8th April 2015, 12:58   #47
BHPian
 
heydj's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Rotterdam/Delhi
Posts: 316
Thanked: 280 Times
Default re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

Has everyone over here seen the movie - The Day After Tomorrow or Interstellar. If not, please do. Shows the hardships humans face because we destroyed the Earth with pollution.

Right now about 400 million people in India have no access to electricity. When they get the same then imagine what the pollution will be.

This move to ban diesel vehicles is not just about car lobby but also about pressure on India at a world level in climate talks. We should not just look at this incident in isolation and instead take into consideration diplomacy at UN level. Look at these articles -

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/1....html?ir=India

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...h-organisation

Of course it can be argued which is more polluting petrol or diesel, well maintained diesel cars over not so well maintained petrol cars. This debate can keep on happening but the fact remains we need to start somewhere and this move by government is a move in right direction.

I only have one question for everyone against this ban - is the health of ours and the future generations important or not?

Last edited by heydj : 8th April 2015 at 12:59.
heydj is offline   (1) Thanks
Old 8th April 2015, 12:59   #48
Senior - BHPian
 
akshay4587's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Chandigarh/Mohali/Ambala Cantt
Posts: 3,756
Thanked: 1,554 Times
Default re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

How are they going to implement this?
Stop each and every vehicle, and Saar, petrol or diesel
Ridiculous; Suddenly a 10 year old well maintained Diesel car like a Accent Crdi/Toyota Innova/Heck even a Premium Mercedes, started polluting more than a vehicles like these, which might be like a year or two old but have never gone through a service and belch out black smoke that could put a steam engine to shame.

Name:  images.jpg
Views: 1219
Size:  10.0 KB

Last edited by Aditya : 9th April 2015 at 11:35. Reason: Let's keep the language clean :)
akshay4587 is offline   (5) Thanks
Old 8th April 2015, 13:24   #49
BHPian
 
Y@SH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 379
Thanked: 358 Times
Default re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

Install a DUMMY CNG kit in a 10yr old diesel car! I dont think the police nor the RTO will have enough technical knowledge to know whether its really working or not!

And Add a CNG sticker on the rear and front windshield. Eureka! you're set!
Y@SH is offline  
Old 8th April 2015, 13:30   #50
Team-BHP Support
 
tsk1979's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 22,955
Thanked: 15,648 Times
Default re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

I guess I will quote two posts I made
Post 1: Why this will not help even a little bit
Quote:
Nope. Nothing made up here.
You first have to understand what is a commercial vehicle.
A commercial vehicle is a vehicle designed to carry goods.
Each vehicle comes with a weight rating.
For example, lets say you are a trucker you buys a truck which can carry 20 tonnes as per manufacturer rating.
However, the manufacturer has over-engineered the truck so it can carry 30 without issue.
There also exist additional aftermarket fitments which mean you can carry 40 tonnes.
So lets say you are carrying cargo at 5rs/kg from Delhi to Jaipur

40 tonnes as opposed to 20 tonnes means you will carry 20000*5 = 1 lakh extra payout.
Lets say your FE is 4kmpl for the 300km trip with 20 tonnes and 2kmpl with 40 tonnes

So you buy 150 liters extra fuel which is 9000rs only.
That is still a cool 90,000 extra profit for a run.

Now what you are doing illegal, if you are caught you have to pay 5000 as bribe.
So your profit is down to 85000

This is the reason trucks are overloaded.
So when you run this truck for 2 years doing 300kms a day (10,000kms a month), in 2 years you have overloaded the vehicle drastically and continuously pushed the engine.

Things start breaking. To save on costs you put in inferior components.
Eg you put in a component for 50,000rs instead of 150,000rs
You know fitness certificate costs just 20,000 bribe. So you again save 80000

Due to corruption in the entire ecosystem, you are now running a 2 year old unfit truck. This does not meet any emission norms, damages the roads and pollutes more than the honest guy who is trying to do everything right.

After two years you are rich, and the honest trucker decides to do something else or join you.

This is why 2 year old vehicles pollute so much, because the financial benefits of polluting are very good.

This is the crux of the problem. Unless the govt (the executive supposed to enforce laws is govt) stops "REWARDING" polluting vehicles, this problem will not go away.

you can ban 10 year old vehicle, 5 year old vehicles or whatever, the pollution will always increase.
This is because there is a reward for driving an ill maintained vehicle.

But private owners do not get rewarded if their vehicle is polluting. The profit margin from not confirming to norms is miniscule. Infact, maintaining their vehicle well as an incentive in the form of rewarding them with increased life.

When you ban vehicles of a certain age, you take away that motivation and reward. You punish people who have maintained their vehicles, at the same time rewarding those who do not.

Is this what we want to do?
Post 2: Pollution statistics
Quote:
They can ban all vehicles older than 5 years and the problem won't go away.
An american researcher has been mapping pollution in the city for the past few months.

So when is it the highest? Well, when cars are not even plying.
Quote:
Confirming claims that interstate trucks are a major cause of pollution in Delhi, data collected by Apte shows that Outer Ring Road and Mathura Road had five to ten times more concentration of particulate matter during night -- when truck ply -- than that recorded during daytime.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/newdel...1-1319898.aspx
tsk1979 is offline   (19) Thanks
Old 8th April 2015, 13:43   #51
Senior - BHPian
 
lamborghini's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 4,638
Thanked: 1,266 Times
Default re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
I guess I will quote two posts I made
Post 1: Why this will not help even a little bit


Post 2: Pollution statistics
Perfect Post! Summarised my feelings exactly!

Instead of banning vehicles, which seems to be the simplest option, why not have more stringent checks and fines imposed on polluting vehicles?
On one hand, there are provisions where car owners can get away without having valid PUC documents in their car (), and on the other hand motorists with clean vehicles are forced to scrap theirs due to fears of pollution.
If it does boil down to banning a vehicle, why not target commercial vehicles first - as they typically see the most jugaad and thus are most prone to polluting - irrespective of fuel!
lamborghini is offline  
Old 8th April 2015, 13:43   #52
Senior - BHPian
 
DCEite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: NCR
Posts: 3,047
Thanked: 482 Times
Default re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

Quote:
Originally Posted by luvtandon View Post
While we were discussing the 15 year ban on vehicles in Delhi, here comes another one banning all diesel vehicles over 10 year old in Delhi.

What I want to know is why this partiality with only Delhi. NGT stands for NATIONAL Green Tribunal. Then why this dictatorial attitude towards Delhi only. Won't those vehicles pollute those cities too where they will be transferred. Don't the other cities deserve to be pollution free too.
Very valid point.

Yesterday they passed another silly order to ban construction activity of private builder projects in Greater Noida west and Gurgaon. So much after so many years and so much money of middle class gone into it.

Why do these people focus only on NCR?

are there no rivers, natural habitates in other parts of India?
DCEite is offline   (1) Thanks
Old 8th April 2015, 13:51   #53
BHPian
 
SchumiFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 859
Thanked: 703 Times
Default re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
I guess I will quote two posts I made
Post 1: Why this will not help even a little bit


Post 2: Pollution statistics
I believe they will eventually strike down on commercial vehicles only. This proposal has been made very strict and to allow for some leeway, they could have targetted the whole Diesel lot, finally ending with the commercial vehicles ban.

The situation could be very bad necessitating the need for such radical steps. What has been mentioned in your post though will have to come in phases and will take time to implement since it deals with men and not machinery.
Just a theory.

Last edited by SchumiFan : 8th April 2015 at 13:53.
SchumiFan is offline  
Old 8th April 2015, 13:56   #54
BHPian
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 55
Thanked: 38 Times
Default re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

Quote:
Originally Posted by heydj View Post
Has everyone over here seen the movie - The Day After Tomorrow or Interstellar...is the health of ours and the future generations important or not?
If the concern is pollution, then let the criteria also be pollution. Why age or fuel type? All vehicles have to obtain PUC on a regular basis. So, if a car passes the check, it should be good enough to drive. If needed, you can make the checks more stringent, but it always has to be about how much a particular car pollutes, not how old it is.
abybabykcc is offline   (3) Thanks
Old 8th April 2015, 15:12   #55
BHPian
 
vipul_singh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: BLR / Lucknow
Posts: 406
Thanked: 230 Times
Default re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

Quote:
Originally Posted by abybabykcc View Post
If the concern is pollution, then let the criteria also be pollution. Why age or fuel type? All vehicles have to obtain PUC on a regular basis. So, if a car passes the check, it should be good enough to drive. If needed, you can make the checks more stringent, but it always has to be about how much a particular car pollutes, not how old it is.
Succinctly put. So to diagnose and address diabetes, the doctor measures the blood sugar levels and not the person's age, or occupation or the fact whether he likes sweets or 'karela' more.

If we extend the logic used by NBT:

All persons 40 - 50 years: x dose of insulin per day by default
All persons 50 - 60 years: 2x dose of insulin per day by default
All persons 60 - 80 years: 4x dose of insulin per day by default
All persons > 80 years: why are you still alive? (intent is not to hurt anyone but to allude to the NBT "solution")

And all the blood glucose meters and test labs can rust in peace!

Last edited by vipul_singh : 8th April 2015 at 15:15.
vipul_singh is offline   (2) Thanks
Old 8th April 2015, 15:18   #56
BHPian
 
heydj's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Rotterdam/Delhi
Posts: 316
Thanked: 280 Times
Default re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

Quote:
Originally Posted by abybabykcc View Post
If needed, you can make the checks more stringent, but it always has to be about how much a particular car pollutes, not how old it is.
Ideally what you and others on similar lines are saying is correct and this should be the way to go. But this then leaves a lot of authority in the hands of pollution check agencies, traffic police etc.

In India a big problem is corruption, any one and everyone tries to get away with breaking the law by giving few rupees etc. Even if the pollution check norms get more stringent people will get away by bribing pollution check booths to get lower pollution reading on the paper.

Hence we need a law set in stone - ''If your diesel vehicle is older than 10 years then you cannot ply on the roads''. There is no ambiguity in this.
heydj is offline  
Old 8th April 2015, 15:26   #57
BHPian
 
vipul_singh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: BLR / Lucknow
Posts: 406
Thanked: 230 Times
Default re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

Quote:
Originally Posted by heydj View Post
Ideally what you and others on similar lines are saying is correct and this should be the way to go. But this then leaves a lot of authority in the hands of pollution check agencies, traffic police etc.

In India a big problem is corruption, any one and everyone tries to get away with breaking the law by giving few rupees etc. Even if the pollution check norms get more stringent people will get away by bribing pollution check booths to get lower pollution reading on the paper.

Hence we need a law set in stone - ''If your diesel vehicle is older than 10 years then you cannot ply on the roads''. There is no ambiguity in this.
This is a question of doing things the 'easy way' vs 'right way'. Two points with respect to your comment:

1) Extra legal methods like bribing would be available even in case of blanket bans > x years
2) Compared to the option of proper enforcement of pollution / fitness checks, the NBT solution essentially finds an easy scapegoat in the form of vehicle owners. So since nobody is taking ownership of what they are supposed to do (i.e. pollution check centers and the people who license and monitor them), let us go after the vehicle owner even if his vehicle is meeting the legal requirements (have proper registration and PUC).

The NBT could instead have done a short study and pulled up the governments for laxities in the PUC issue process.

Last edited by vipul_singh : 8th April 2015 at 15:29.
vipul_singh is offline  
Old 8th April 2015, 15:26   #58
Senior - BHPian
 
VeluM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 1,298
Thanked: 665 Times
Default re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
I guess I will quote two posts I made
Post 1: Why this will not help even a little bit
Post 2: Pollution statistics
Good points. How do we reduce corruption as a cause for pollution though?
Off the top of my head, why can't it be made mandatory to have a toll-gate type setup for commercial goods transport vehicles at the entry points to each state where they collect tax anyway. Trucks would stop momentarily, cameras would capture the license and front/side/rear elevations, and along with a weigh bridge setup feed the vehicle weight automatically into a form.

IF we have the vehicle data available, this will immediately invalidate the form for overloaded vehicles, and these can then be fined. The form should be logged against the vehicle as an offence, and be non-editable. The offending truck should then not be allowed to enter the state.

Having a passback check would ensure that an overweight truck sneaking in should be caught if exiting without a corresponding entry. I'm sure driving around to avoid the toll gates would be a problem enough, and over time the "alternate" routes can also be plugged.

Having an automated, non-editable system is key. The vehicle itself can be banned after several offences, and may only be released after paying a hefty fine. This way, not only will an overloaded vehicle not be allowed into the state, it would also in the long term ensure that it is not economically viable for a transporter to overload the vehicle.

This can be a single step to ensure inter-state transport vehicles are checked. No ideas on how to handle trucks within a state, but that can probably addressed at a later stage.

Someone should suggest this to the government. PPP possibly?

Sorry, just pleased with my flash of brilliance. Sure the bubble will burst soon.
VeluM is online now  
Old 8th April 2015, 15:32   #59
Senior - BHPian
 
sourabhzen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: GURGAON
Posts: 1,541
Thanked: 1,277 Times
Default re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

Quote:
Originally Posted by VeluM View Post
Good points. How do we reduce corruption as a cause for pollution though?
Off the top of my head, why can't it be made mandatory to have a toll-gate type setup for commercial goods transport vehicles at the entry points to each state where they collect tax anyway. Trucks would stop momentarily, cameras would capture the license and front/side/rear elevations, and along with a weigh bridge setup feed the vehicle weight automatically into a form.

IF we have the vehicle data available, this will immediately invalidate the form for overloaded vehicles, and these can then be fined. The form should be logged against the vehicle as an offence, and be non-editable. The offending truck should then not be allowed to enter the state.

Having a passback check would ensure that an overweight truck sneaking in should be caught if exiting without a corresponding entry. I'm sure driving around to avoid the toll gates would be a problem enough, and over time the "alternate" routes can also be plugged.

Having an automated, non-editable system is key. The vehicle itself can be banned after several offences, and may only be released after paying a hefty fine. This way, not only will an overloaded vehicle not be allowed into the state, it would also in the long term ensure that it is not economically viable for a transporter to overload the vehicle.

This can be a single step to ensure inter-state transport vehicles are checked. No ideas on how to handle trucks within a state, but that can probably addressed at a later stage.

Someone should suggest this to the government. PPP possibly?

Sorry, just pleased with my flash of brilliance. Sure the bubble will burst soon.
Firstly, even a mention of such proposal will send the transporters on strike. Secondly, isn't it too much to ask from our government that is still struggling to provide at least one toilet for girl students in all government school?
sourabhzen is offline   (2) Thanks
Old 8th April 2015, 15:34   #60
BHPian
 
vipul_singh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: BLR / Lucknow
Posts: 406
Thanked: 230 Times
Default re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

Quote:
Originally Posted by VeluM View Post
Good points. How do we reduce corruption ....
Reducing corruption is no rocket science and has been addressed around the world through 3 basic processes:

1) Political and official will (and where would this political will come from when we vote on 'waves' while often not even looking at individual candidates)
2) Independent police
3) Competent and swift-acting judiciary

If you don't do this, we can continue to have a dozen bodies to monitor and check each other (like the Lufthansa ad: we have people who check the people who check the people who check your aircraft) and the problem would still not go away
vipul_singh is offline   (1) Thanks
Closed Thread


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Proposal to ban 15 year old vehicles. EDIT: Concept paper released on page 18 Leepower The Indian Car Scene 270 28th September 2016 18:12
15+ year old Commercial Vehicles banned in Kolkata arin_12 Commercial Vehicles 10 2nd August 2009 16:21
Which car to buy? Heart says Baleno, but mind says Diesel hatch/sedan fieroid Sedans 55 20th May 2009 14:01


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 17:59.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks