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Old 8th April 2015, 15:43   #61
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Default re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

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Originally Posted by vipul_singh View Post
This is a question of doing things the 'easy way' vs 'right way'. Two points with respect to your comment:

The NBT could instead have done a short study and pulled up the governments for laxities in the PUC issue process.
Its at times like these I wish there was a chat function at team-bhp

I completely agree there is a right way of doing things but there is another aspect to this - a practical way of doing things.

Lets say NBT did the study and government passed stricter controls over puc checks. After this will come two options:
A> Strict puc laws have reduced the pollution.
B> This does not has the desired impact as vehicles owners are bribing the puc workers.

Knowing how things work in India, government or a third party should do a study to find out whether A or B has a higher chance of happening here.

Also do keep in mind after doing anything the results are not instantaneous, it will probably take number of years before the desired result is achieved. Knowing this can we truly take a wrong step now only to figure out a generation later it was not good enough!

Last edited by heydj : 8th April 2015 at 15:46.
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Old 8th April 2015, 15:59   #62
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Default re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

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Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
2. What prevents the rolling out of Euro-5 / Bharat Stage-V emission norms in India?
All the PSU refineries need to be upgraded as well. If i remember right only diesel fuel will be more refined. Ultra low sulphur diesel as compared to BS4 diesel.
All the remainig fuels will be the same and wont be further refined.

Also manufacturers are still allowed to sell BS3 cars apart from the major cities even though BS4 is in effect from 2010.

AFAIK the shift to BS5 is planned in 2017.

Last edited by cooldude1988765 : 8th April 2015 at 16:01.
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Old 8th April 2015, 16:01   #63
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Default re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

This has been happening even in U.K where they are proposing to hike the taxes during purchase even more this year, as also levy a 10 charge for entering central districts of London. Britain is also being sued by the European Commission due to higher than ideal air pollution levels understood to be due to the huge popularity of diesels there. Nitrogen dioxide was found to be well over-limit in 18 cities of Britain.

So there is some truth to this diesel story as we all know, Delhi due to its population and industrialization, has constantly been rated one of the most polluted cities in the world with recent reports claiming its topping it. The health of the people at the end of the day, is most important so its essential that the Government looks at this situation in multiple dimensions & not just attack the car owners overnight. For example :

- Corporations that need 24/7 power often have to suffer power-cuts, solution? Massive diesel generators that consume litres per hour due to the sheer volume of power generation required.

- Industries inside & within Delhi limits - Industries have always been a part of Delhi, the BPO sector is only a recent addition. Places like Okhla, Badli etc have their fair share of production houses, pharma manufacturing etc all generating major employment for people. Surely diesel is used here too.

- Real estate utilises diesel gensets, bulldozers, fork lifts, machinery etc. Delhi's real estate is among the fastest growing in the country.

- A new diesel car with a massive 2.0/3.0 litre engine will generate much more exhaust gases than a well maintained decade old sub-2 litre engine. If the driver has a heavy right foot like most cabbies do, age of the cab doesn't matter, their sheer neglect and driving style of the car itself will do its fair share of harm.

- In almost every city (Bangalore for sure) I've seen buses/transport lorries/trucks emit smoke almost the colour of soot. What is the regulation in place for this? These are "essential" activities so yet again we are at stalemate.

Maybe I do not yet understand the real reason behind this ban because I do not have the numbers in front of me, but when there are so many variables in terms of exhaust emissions like condition of catalytic converter, engine maintenance, size of engine, kind of driving style & purity of fuel which can permute a vehicle of any age, I doubt this can help in easing the environment drastically. I cant seem to think of any alternatives for diesel as far as industries go as well, any change will take a few years of careful study, providing awareness to everyone about real facts thus enabling voluntary reform.

Quickly booming cities like Bangalore & Pune better take notes as well. I would like a better place for my future generations to live in just as much as anybody else. The solution though isn't as simple as it seems.

Last edited by dark.knight : 8th April 2015 at 16:06.
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Old 8th April 2015, 16:06   #64
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Default re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

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Originally Posted by dark.knight View Post
- A new diesel car with a massive 2.0/3.0 litre engine will generate much more exhaust gases than a well maintained decade old sub-2 litre engine. If the driver has a heavy right foot like most cabbies do, age of the cab doesn't matter, their sheer neglect and driving style of the car itself will do its fair share of harm.
I highly doubt a new fortuner will give out more pollution than a pristinely maintained 10 year old indica/esteem D (Peugeot TUD5).

Also can some of the experts comment on pedal to metal driving giving out more pollution than normal driving even in well maintained cars ?

Agree with everything else though.
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Old 8th April 2015, 16:29   #65
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Default re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

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I highly doubt a new fortuner will give out more pollution than a pristinely maintained 10 year old indica/esteem D.
I never contested that an engine does wear down slowly as it ages, the extent of wear depends on how it was driven & maintained, nevertheless there will be noticeable difference specially in diesel engines after a decade. I also agree that there have been suitable improvements in engine casting and refinement as also consumption thanks to turbo-charging.

However what I meant was not related to mechanics of one engine with 'x' capacity vs another of 'y' capacity, its about the rule that all diesel cars that are a decade old are unfit to be driven. I assume they have some reason for saying so and the only reason could be NOx discharge as that's the only major thing different from gasoline fuel. So lets assume NOx discharge in 10 year old vehicles is over the limit 80% of the time, what about the rest of the 20%? Lets also assume that a 5 year old vehicle with terrible maintenance that's being revved during stop times and unnecessarily being redlined (rapid acceleration/stoppages consume more fuel for lesser distance travelled thus increasing the exhaust fumes) generates more NOx than the decade old vehicles, if such vehicles are allowed to run the result is the same.

Thus all I mean to say is by and large the numbers maybe correct, but if there is a 20% error either side (conservative figure), then for such a major step it may lead to little effect. As well the fact that cars aren't the only diesel consumers which may lead to more errors.
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Old 8th April 2015, 16:54   #66
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Default re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

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Originally Posted by dark.knight View Post
However what I meant was not related to mechanics of one engine with 'x' capacity vs another of 'y' capacity, its about the rule that all diesel cars that are a decade old are unfit to be driven. I assume they have some reason for saying so and the only reason could be NOx discharge as that's the only major thing different from gasoline fuel. So lets assume NOx discharge in 10 year old vehicles is over the limit 80% of the time, what about the rest of the 20%? Lets also assume that a 5 year old vehicle with terrible maintenance that's being revved during stop times and unnecessarily being redlined (rapid acceleration/stoppages consume more fuel for lesser distance travelled thus increasing the exhaust fumes) generates more NOx than the decade old vehicles, if such vehicles are allowed to run the result is the same.
I feel the NGT is taking an easy way out. They should have stringent PUC or even MOT like in the UK as many have suggested. On the other hand however as tsk has pointed out many may bribe their way out of MOT also.
Most white board cars would be decently maintained.
The biggest polluters atleast as per what i see are the yellow boards right from an autorickshaw all the upto a volvo bus.
In my opinion the main reason why they pollute is primarily due to overloading the vehicle and in turn over-stressing the engine, add poor maintenance in the mix and you have a perfect recipe for a polluting disaster
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Old 8th April 2015, 16:55   #67
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Default re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

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Originally Posted by heydj View Post
Its at times like these I wish there was a chat function at team-bhp

I completely agree there is a right way of doing things but there is another aspect to this - a practical way of doing things.

Lets say NBT did the study and government passed stricter controls over puc checks. After this will come two options:
A> Strict puc laws have reduced the pollution.
B> This does not has the desired impact as vehicles owners are bribing the puc workers.

Knowing how things work in India, government or a third party should do a study to find out whether A or B has a higher chance of happening here.

Also do keep in mind after doing anything the results are not instantaneous, it will probably take number of years before the desired result is achieved. Knowing this can we truly take a wrong step now only to figure out a generation later it was not good enough!
Heh heh! I agree on the chat functionality. I also understand your point on the practicality aspect. Practicality is an important compromise between 'right' and 'easy'.

However some may argue that we as a nation have consistently aligned 'Practical' to be too close to 'easy' and too far away from 'right'. Over millions of decisions taken over 60 years, this has allowed nations like Japan, Thailand and Indonesia to pull ahead of us in various aspects.

Someone said: 'A river becomes crooked by following the path of least resistence...so do men'. Is this what has been happening to us as a country? And is the NBT order also in the same spirit?

Disclaimer: all of the above is an opinion. I would love to be corrected..

Last edited by vipul_singh : 8th April 2015 at 16:57.
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Old 8th April 2015, 17:07   #68
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Default re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

In my opinion, the normal pollution caused by exhaust of vehicles is never question and need not be compared. So, the question of Fortuner vs well-maintained old cars should not arise.

This drastic step initiated by NGT would probably be because of the dangerous levels of pollution that Delhi is suffering from. Bringing down the pollution levels from such a phenomenal high would require such evasive action (at least in the short-term). It is certainly not a popular one but it is probably necessary.

The diesels' ten years back did not possess the same emission control character of the diesels' today and for this reason alone, I am in favour of the ban. However, that said, as someone earlier had rightly pointed out the disproportionate Road Tax and Registration charges collected, the ban without providing the citizens with a justifiable redressal mechanism for the refund of the collected fees, seems to be half-baked. NGT need not worry about the money aspect of it. But the concerned ministry should evaluate these matters and ensure the people affected by it are compensated.
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Old 8th April 2015, 17:13   #69
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Default re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

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Originally Posted by vipul_singh View Post
However some may argue that we as a nation have consistently aligned 'Practical' to be too close to 'easy' and too far away from 'right'. Over millions of decisions taken over 60 years, this has allowed nations like Japan, Thailand and Indonesia to pull ahead of us in various aspects.

Someone said: 'A river becomes crooked by following the path of least resistence...so do men'. Is this what has been happening to us as a country? And is the NBT order also in the same spirit?

Disclaimer: all of the above is an opinion. I would love to be corrected..
Vipul: given the kind of environmental degradation that China has seen over its stupendous growth years, I'd happily opt for slower growth. The trouble with things like pollution and health is that you only realize how great they were once they're gone!

Also, don't forget how quickly things got better when the Supreme Court forced all commercial vehicles to move to CNG over a very short time. I lived in Delhi then and the air cleaned up super fast. Given the fact that diesel vehicles have really only gotten popular as personal transportation in the last decade or so, it does make sense to phase out the old and bring in the new.

Apart from NOx, diesels also produce more Suspended Particulate Matter because they don't have spark plugs but glow plugs. SPM is stuff that's so fine that it goes into your bloodstream. WHO designates SPM a Group 1 carcinogen

Last edited by djpeesh : 8th April 2015 at 17:20.
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Old 8th April 2015, 17:41   #70
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Default re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

I see a few people asking why the goverment is banning 10 year old vehicles rather than implementing Euro 5?

My question is, petrol/diesel vehicles older than 10/15 years would definitely not be in accordance with Euro 5, right? Therefore, wouldn't implementing latest emission norms involve banning vehicles which don't agree with the norm?

And another point to add, while I agree with the strong measure to control pollution and ban older vehicles, shouldn't the government first put in place measures to strictly enforce fuel quality? I'm sure improving the quality of fuel in India, particularly diesel, can go a long way in cutting pollution.
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Old 8th April 2015, 17:42   #71
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Default re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

What we need is nationwide application of DPF or Diesel Particulate Filter and also the use of Diesel Exhaust Treatment as required by diesel cars in the US. As far as I know, the after treatment can be modified into existing cars as well and the additive costs little if sold in bulk. Reduces NoX significantly and also other pollutants.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_exhaust_fluid

Further, there must be efficient PUC checking especially on commercial vehicles. There must also be a push towards building parking lots. A lot of the time I spent this past December in Delhi was stuck looking for parking while polluting. Parking lots at Metro stations is the best solution by far as it integrates everything together and gives a viable alternative.

Randomly banning cars regardless of maintenance, size, actual pollution, actual usage and all other factors is not going to work.
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Old 8th April 2015, 18:16   #72
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Default re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

Lets ban all automobiles, petrol, diesel, CnG whatsoever, and switch to bullock carts. Will take care of the problem of those ageing cattle that cannot be slaughtered, and it will address the pollution problem too. An added bonus will be the sheer reduction in fiscal deficit due to zero petroleum imports. And no need of expressways either. So many benefits. Lets do it.
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Old 8th April 2015, 19:27   #73
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Default re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

I would have preferred a "hybrid" sort of a solution to the growing pollution menace in the capital

I do not have numbers to back it up but just looking at the smoke these nasty rickety trucks / tempos / buses belch out, they should definitely be banned. I think this alone should help resolve a huge chunk of the problem. Even for vehichles that are less than 10 year old should have to get their vehichles inspected very frequently

Its harsh for the private vehichle owners though and quite unfair. A fitness inspection, for both Diesel and Petrol vehichles should be mandated periodically. And I do believe that using some automation in the checking process coupled with computer generated, not easy to replicate fitness certificates should keep this from becoming another source of ill gotten money for many a worthless waste of flesh and air

Last edited by Urban_Nomad : 8th April 2015 at 19:29.
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Old 8th April 2015, 20:03   #74
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Thumbs down re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

What happened to the Western Peripheral Expressway and Eastern Peripheral Expressway?

I read it somewhere last year that the construction was started in 2006/2007 and was to complete in 2009. The main aim for these 2 Expressways was to de-congest Delhi roads by connecting NH-1,2,8,10 and 24 so that trucks can use them to bypass Delhi.

It should have been completed by now and trucks instead of transiting Delhi must have been bypassing Delhi.

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Old 8th April 2015, 20:18   #75
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Default re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

Knee jerk reaction, at best! 15 year old car or a 10 year old diesel vehicle: who is giving them all the ideas?

The numbers in the first place, all this SPM chart and NOx percentage: these figures are most certainly, moderated! It's probably much worse than what NGT is fretting over!

You will find tenders for buying the equipment in the newspapers: calibrating and certifying them each year, is almost 20-30% the cost of the equipment, which is NEVER tendered or even budgeted for in annual departmental cost estimations! So, I doubt the calibration after the first year. No benefit of doubt here.

Banned in Delhi, eh? OK. When they banned the Bluelines from Delhi, what do you think happened to the buses and the unorganised private transport sector? It simply moved out to the neighboring states. Really close; few kilometers really. All Noida private buses bear the DL1P registration number, and in white/yellow/green colour.

They are almost always owned by a few families: typically the Bawanas, Awanas or the Bhatis. A few families have an established business running these "banned" fleet, coincidental with large amounts of money made by selling land to builders. This is NOT off topic.

What the NGT is trying to address, doesn't get solved at all: Pollution from diesel or SPM in the air doesn't recognise state borders. It doesn't exercise "discretion" on polluting the air-mass everywhere else except that in Delhi. Wind blows....!

This will become yet another opportunity for those who smell it. No public convenience business in India, is big enough to be underutilized: have you ever seen a private bus empty? No! These vehicles will find place and business in deeper, "pristine" remote village areas. Result: we deepen the extent of pollution beyond the city borders! Smoke billow, spilling over-used engine oil and carcinogens to the ground water, lead from the batteries, burnt plastic...all from the subsequent repair efforts for these vehicles: brilliant plan indeed!

Progress!!

Last edited by lapis_lazuli : 8th April 2015 at 20:33.
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