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Old 16th April 2015, 13:52   #16
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Default Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!

Great points. I personally was planning for a City/Ciaz but looking at Bangalore traffic, decided to instead go for the under-4 m segment (Xcent). Enthusiasts can loathe as much as they can on the 4-m rule resulting in not-so-fascinating looking cars (subjective), but unless our road network is improved, any additional space saved by compact sedans is space earned to squeeze in additional 2 bikes (especially Bangalore bikers who can put auto-rickshaws to shame in how they can squeeze in).

I agree CS are here to stay and practical way for those aspiring for sedans but cannot afford or don't believe in bigger is better.

The CS segment is also a boon to taxi market as they can charge the extra Rs per km for a sedan with little more investment.

Interestingly, Swift and Dzire sell almost the same; Amaze is way better than Brio (plus diesel engine) and sells way more than Brio, Xcent is better than Grand i10 but below i20 and both i10/i20 sell more than Xcent.
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Old 16th April 2015, 14:02   #17
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Default Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!

Wow thats a lot of effort. Did you get a compact sedan recently?

Car status once upon a time belonged to the sedan in India. Now, i think that has changed. Anything south of the luxury brands is passe. And there is stratification even within the products of Audi BMW Merc and JLR.

Even among the non luxe brands Anything south of Rs 20 lakh today is not really considered a car of any status. So lets not talk status at all.

CS is a mass product. And it is here to stay because
1. It comes down to the tax advantage that CS has.
2. The CS is based on a model that exists in other parts of the world (except for the Zest). The making of the CS is probably India specific strategy
3. The reducing purchasing power of the ruppee thanks to inflation and rupee depreciation, has brought otherwise budget C - segment buyers to this CS product. Let us not forget that CS evolved as competitive option against cars like Fiesta Classic, iKon, Accent and Etios. It was never intended to compete with City, Vento or Ciaz.
4. Relative acceptance of the shape: Just as in the US where the Camry is the staple car, the Corolla is called a compact and still smaller sedans are called a compromise; So as in India, the staple is the City/Ciaz/Vento and the compact is the various CS i guess

Last edited by acidkill : 16th April 2015 at 14:15.
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Old 16th April 2015, 14:07   #18
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Default Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!

Great compilation of all the facts and figures, now it’s up to the people to decide what they want to go for.
Commendable job done by you CrAzY dRiVeR.

Its a fact that the sub 4 meter started as disproportionate, made in need kind of a design but the segment has evolved quite a lot. Previously people were sceptical about going for them but as the segment started to mature and people found purpose, it seems there is nothing to stop it now.

If we concentrate on the MOM numbers it seems that more and more people are getting inclined to this segment. The segment was created to escape a tax implication but now so many followers of the same and I hope no mature person can think all of those people are foolish enough to be misled.

Last edited by GTO : 19th April 2015 at 13:07. Reason: Language
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Old 16th April 2015, 14:12   #19
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Default Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!

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Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
(Sedan = Status) was true 10 years back. Just like a TV in a household was 30 years back. Things have moved on now.

Now automotive status symbols start at Rs.20 Lacs plus SUVs.
Not really Smart!!
It is again the perception that is from an individual Point of view.
A person driving an Alto exchanges with a Dzire.
The status symbol does go up not only for him(within the family) but also within the community.

Status is how you and your immediate vicinity sees you.
A 20 lac SUV in a posh Worli is equivalent to probably a Dzire in Kalyan!!
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Old 16th April 2015, 14:20   #20
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Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
(Sedan = Status) was true 10 years back. Just like a TV in a household was 30 years back. Things have moved on now.

Now automotive status symbols start at Rs.20 Lacs plus SUVs.
Agree that would be true for some segments, especially those who were car owners 10 years ago and would have moved up in budget now. But our country big enough to have all types, and you would be surprised how many first time car buyers go for compact sedans over a hatchback for 50k less or a proper sedan for 1L more.
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Old 16th April 2015, 14:25   #21
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I own an Xcent. I bought a car even before I own a home. For me, buying a car was not about my status, it was more about my needs, my priorities. I started off with test driving various Hatchbacks and ended up buying a CS. Why? Simply because it ticked almost all of my requirements. I did not care about what enthusiasts think about it, I did not care if its a hatchback or a Compact Sedan. The car was supposed to suit my requirements and Xcent did. Period.
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Old 16th April 2015, 14:27   #22
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Default Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!

Great effort, CrAzY dRiVeR!

I hope this somehow reaches your target audience (non-enthusiasts who should not be listening to enthusiasts!) because I don't think any of them are here on TeamBHP!

Forget compact sedans, some of us (basically, me - hoping there are a few more like me there) cannot even bear normal sedans if they have a good looking hatchback sibling! (E.g. Golf v/s Jetta, Polo v/s Vento) Yes, the sedan may be proportionate, practical etc etc. But there is something beautiful about the simple shape (read cute bum) of a hatchback which is lost the moment you add that extra box.

Yes, I agree that the Brio has a love-it-or-hate-it backside, but the moment the designer of the Amaze decided that there should be two non-coinciding character lines along the profile of the car, it just became a hate-it-only design for me.
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Old 16th April 2015, 14:29   #23
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Great effort crazy driver! No wonder a segment that is doing so great (and unfortunately killing some segments) gets attacked!

I recently purchased Zest Revotron, changing over from Swift VDi. I was initially looking at sedan class, took test drives of Vento, City and the Verna. It was such a pain to drive them through the packed Bangalore traffic on weekends. I dreaded how it could be to drive on weekdays and to my office in Whitefield! Add the difficulty of wading through narrow roads.
As this article points out in multiple instances, the Zest gave me all the bells and whistles, including the practicality of larger space, bigger boot and fantastic value for the money spent.
Looks: Well, the Pristine White Zest impressed all my family members including my 4 yr daughter!
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Old 16th April 2015, 14:34   #24
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Default Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!

Great points CD. Just yesterday a friend asked and I dismissively told I dislike CS segment so buy anything you like

The used car segment is a great leveler. And I'm sure the price difference between a used Amaze and City of similar vintage would be quite less as compared to new.

Nonetheless, even after all these very valid points, many here including me would be loathe to buy a CS....Ahh the burden of being an enthusiast

PS: This might have to do with the Zest being launched prior to the Bolt, but for some strange reason whenever I think of Zest I don't consider it as a CS but a proper sedan. I just cant explain why !!

Last edited by avisidhu : 16th April 2015 at 14:39.
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Old 16th April 2015, 14:42   #25
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Default Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!

Thanks for sharing this. Am excellent compilation.

It surely started as hatch + quickfix pasted boot in early days of Indigo CS.
And still is true for Dzire - I hate to see that car.
But with Xcent, Zest and Amaze, things are not so (ugly).

Why should I spend 3 big ones on Verna when I am getting sufficient space in Xcent - when most of the times it would be 2+kid in the car (you can extend that to Amaze-City / Dzire-Ciaz).

As you said CD, this segment is here to stay, and Gen3 cars will have more matured looks.
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Old 16th April 2015, 14:59   #26
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Default Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!

The mere fact that the Dzires, Amazes and Xccents sells in huge numbers shows that people are not listening to the enthusiasts anyway. So, I don't see the point. Perhaps you can make people who own one of these cars feel better? But no matter what you say, even putting the "looks are subjective" defense, these cars are not good looking. Regardless of the definition of beauty, there is not a single car from this segment that is half as good-looking as the Polos, Puntos, I20s, Lineas or the Ciazes. And there are plenty of people who prefer good looking cars. Of course, there are also people who don't care. It all boils down to this.
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Old 16th April 2015, 15:00   #27
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Default Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!

Quote:
Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
(Sedan = Status) was true 10 years back. Just like a TV in a household was 30 years back. Things have moved on now.

Now automotive status symbols start at Rs.20 Lacs plus SUVs.
Status symbols are always relative. For many people 20 lacs is chicken feed, and hardly a status symbol. For others, even an Alto is a status symbol.
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Old 16th April 2015, 15:10   #28
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Default Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!

Compact Sedans will stay here for a while, basically because our car market is still maturing and probably there are more hatchback owners currently then all the other categories put together. Their natural progression / status upgrade is still Sedan (generally). Compact Sedans help them to save that extra 30 - 40000 over normal mid size sedan at the same time satisfying their ego of owning / driving a Sedan. Plus some first time buyers are also looking at compact sedans. So at least for next 3 - 4 years this segment is going to stay relevant for India. Unless Indian govt takes the decision to alter ED rules completely
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Old 16th April 2015, 15:14   #29
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Default Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!

Thanks for all your replies and counter arguments, guys.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arvi86 View Post
Should I call them argument cases?
Yes of course. This is just my view, and in general - I know it goes against the thought process of the community.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arvi86 View Post
Well rounded these compact sedans may be, but it's a fact they threw proportions and aesthetics for a toss in the process. Bottom line, they are hated for a reason.
Because the segment mostly consists of cars that were made to adapt to the rule. For example - the Swift was never designed keeping the sedan in mind, but the Amaze / Xcent was! And it shows. Ok, they still are not what you would call beautiful though.

And proportion was never a hard rule. When the WagonR / Santro came, people had similar reactions. But just see how they have become part of the Indian automotive culture now. Same with the Innova with its odd shape. Same with the Swift when it spearheaded the premium hatchback segment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arvi86 View Post
That's exactly the problem. Whenever a segment emerges doing this, it ends up killing the 'something' that you have mentioned. The City offered 90% of Civic at 70% of its price and killed the Civic. Forget the Civic, the segment itself isn't doing great and we have a separate thread running on this - http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ura-et-al.html (The Diminishing Value of D1 Segment Sedans (Altis, Cruze, Civic, Laura et al)).

So, a few years down the line, I visualize these compact sedans with their chopped-off boots and butchered proportions to rule the roost. That's precisely why I (and I'm sure there are many others) am worried.
D - segment was not killed by the C-segment. Rather, the segment was killed by products that failed to adopt to the Indian market. Civic was an almost instant success but failed to adapt later on. They needed a diesel option and Honda never planned for one. Corolla still managing with a 1.4 diesel and no diesel automatic options while you get better choices in the C segment itself, and it still does respectable numbers. People are still ready to plonk money on the Octavia despite all the horror stories, but Skoda is not too interested to sell them. Even Maruti Suzuki had a good chance with the Kizashi but ruined it with the CBU strategy. I believe Maruti Suzuki will give another go at the D segment once the Ciaz is all established.

Coming back to the C segment, I think the sedans like City and Ciaz differ a lot from the compact sedans to distinguish themselves. But when we take cars like the Verna, there is not much they offer in the current form. Was surprised to see features like rear a/c vents missing in the Verna compared to the Xcent. And this will hurt the manufacturer eventually.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chncar View Post
I think the most hated thing about the so-called compact sedans is the mentality of some of the owners who think that buying one over the hatch it was based on somehow upgrades their 'status'. More than any functional aspect, it is this attitude that people scoff at.
Isn't that a human tendency rather than a compact sedan / segment trait?

Everytime we say - 'No, Indians wont pay this kind of money on a hatchback' - it is the same mentality that shows!
Quote:
Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
(Sedan = Status) was true 10 years back. Just like a TV in a household was 30 years back. Things have moved on now.

Now automotive status symbols start at Rs.20 Lacs plus SUVs.
Depends on where you stand. True for cities like Bangalore though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by govindremesh View Post
Exactly the views of my uncle who brought the Amaze VX when I was convincing him to buy the City E instead!
I hate the interiors on the Amaze, but the City E is another league even compared to the Amaze. Even the S was shockingly sparse both in terms of features and quality even by compact sedan standards. The good thing though - even E gets airbags and ABS as standard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by govindremesh View Post
While I still refuse to accept that the additional box in the back makes any difference compared to the society status offered by a premium hatch, but if people want it, manufacturers will sell it.
You have answered your own question, haven't you? People 'want' a sedan. I'm only saying that this phenomenon is seen across segments, not only in the compact sedan space. If they have money, they want a big sedan. If they dont - they make do with a small one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by govindremesh View Post
It would be interesting to see if in the coming days, the CS harm the sales of their bigger C segment brothers, given the increasing congestion in our cities and lack of parking space.
True. Infact, it would have been wonderful if we had the breakup of sales among different variants. I believe the low end C segment sedans were affected by the compact sedans. Your case of Amaze VX v/s City E for example.

Open fact the that entry level sedans like Etios, Sail, Verito, Fiesta Classic, Linea classic etc were affected.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tejas08 View Post
Great Effort CD!

I agree with your argument that the Compact Sedan Segment is here to stay. The compact sedan segment has certainly evolved with the likes of Zest, XCent, Amaze and Figo Aspire.

The whole misconception of Compact Sedans are ugly has come from the Famous Dzire. (Still no idea how MSIL manages to sell these many Dzires despite being so ugly-looking, and practically very less boot space). Till the time Dzire was over 4M in length, it looked good if not great. But to gain the excise duty benefit all MSIL did was cut-short the boot. This is what made it look horrible.

I think MSIL will soon have to start looking for a new design for the Dzire as this design will not last for long with all other manufacturers coming up with much better models of CS.
Thank you.

DZire does so many things right, and just one thing wrong - that boot (Both in terms of looks and space). However, you also pay only a small premium over the Swift (60k) and get several things Indians 'desire' - Beige interiors, sedan form etc. Had the same car been priced 1L or above the Swift - probably it would not have been accepted the same way. The 60k is considered as a small sum because most people consider the mid variant of the DZire which suddenly seems more VFM than top variant of Swift (Yes, sadly safety doesnt matter to most)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tejas08 View Post
One thing as a Tall guy I would like to highlight is, if the driver is tall then a CS does not make sense as it practically leaves no space behind the driver due to the smaller Wheel-base. It is these taller people who actually pass on the comment of less space in CS. (I have done that too) But if you look at it from a family of average sized Indians, a Compact Sedan should suffice the needs fairly well.
I'm 180cms tall, and I can assure you that the Xcent back seat is a much better place to be than my Punto. Even with front adjusted to my height, there is good legroom in the Xcent, but my knee starts touching the front seat in the Punto

Xcent -
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And Amaze too -
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Quote:
Originally Posted by .anshuman View Post
Would i ever buy a Compact Sedan? No.

Why? Because all of them look ugly and ill-proportioned , are jugaads and even considering practical aspects i find lack of folding rear seats and small boot opening a big disadvantage. While some may think of them as status symbols, but i'd feel embarrassed driving such contraptions.
Good for you!
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Old 16th April 2015, 15:23   #30
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Default Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!

Kudos to you Crazy Driver for this thread. But believe it or not, many people do not know all this sub-4m rule and cars and think all cars with a boot to be a sedan.

In fact, I suggested my elder sister to get an Xcent last month because I found that it ticks all boxes for their usage. They brought the car home in march and are very satisfied with the purchase.

Thanks!
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