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Old 16th April 2015, 22:40   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiku007 View Post
Ten years down the line, how will India's two decades of Automotive History look like? A sea of disproportionate 4M contraptions (Minimum of 2 from every Mass Manufacturer). What a pleasant history.

However logical or practical the offerings of the manufacturers be or the choices the customers make, the 4M rule killed DECENT performance petrol engines (Sub 10L) in this country and gave birth to ridiculous looking cars which only capitalized on people's aspiration and nothing else.
Even in the higher segments, there is an indirect effect.
Because B segment is capped at 1.3L petrol and 1.6L diesel, C segment cars are increasingly being equipped with smaller engines.
Just as an example, people say the original Honda City had a much punchier engine than the current one.
The Baleno had a 1.6L engine, and was considered a joy to drive, while the Ciaz has a 1.4L engine which is a bit sluggish. But the average driver who's upgrading from an i10 or Indigo CS won't feel it because he's always driven a weak engine.
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Old 16th April 2015, 22:56   #47
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Default Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DCEite View Post
Enough of this BS about status symbol/ego/being arrived etc etc.

For me the only and only thing that mattered was *practicality*.
...
If a tom dick harry thinks that I am image and status conscious or have a big ego, its *his* problem and not mine.
Easy there buddy, no need to take it personally. I am sure many people buy a compact sedan for the reasons you mentioned. But as many people pointed out in this thread, people have different perspectives and expectations. For long, cars and their relative sizes have been a symbol of status for people and no denying that.

BTW, I would also like to point out that a hatchback or sedan or even an SUV can be practical depending on what one needs.
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Old 16th April 2015, 23:07   #48
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Brilliant effort :thumbup:

But did you manage to change my mind about compact sedans? A big no.

In an argument no one is ever wrong and the one who argues thinks that he is always right. Though this is not an argument there are certain places where the positives of compact sedans are highlighted over negatives of sedans. For example you compared the leg room of Xcent with linea to showcase that compact sedans have higher leg room. Now let's do a comparison of Dzire against Ciaz and Amaze again City and see who triumphs who. I am comparing cars from same families to make a fair comparison.

To make things clear let us do a fair comparison. I am taking Maruti Dzire and Maruti Ciaz.

Looks: If you are asked to vote I am sure you know who the winner.

Cabin space and leg room: We all know how cramped Dzire is.

Handling: The handling of Ciaz is way better than Dzire.

Ride quality: Once again Ciaz scores and scores big.

Interior quality: Ciaz scores.

Boot: Not a comparison against the mighty boot space of Ciaz.

Engine: Ciaz scores again.

In reality compact sedans only satisfy the ego of having a sedan in garage. But for me they are just an other breed in-between hatchback and sedan.
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Old 16th April 2015, 23:07   #49
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Default Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!

A very detailed and practical thread.

For many the comforts of hatchback are not enough. When CS offers good boot space for weekend drives and comfortable leg-space in the same package. Why not ?
The CS segment is here to stay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kiku007 View Post
Ten years down the line, how will India's two decades of Automotive History look like? A sea of disproportionate 4M contraptions (Minimum of 2 from every Mass Manufacturer). What a pleasant history.

However logical or practical the offerings of the manufacturers be or the choices the customers make, the 4M rule killed DECENT performance petrol engines (Sub 10L) in this country and gave birth to ridiculous looking cars which only capitalized on people's aspiration and nothing else.
True that. You echoed my thoughts. Esteem/Baleno/Accent/iKon were well proportioned and also packed-in amazing engines. In the craze for sub 4 meters the joy of driving is robbed away.
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Old 16th April 2015, 23:08   #50
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Well said prakash_ajp! it's entirely subjective depending on ones needs, priorities. At the end of the day one should be happy with the purchase and should not feel regret about it.
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Old 16th April 2015, 23:27   #51
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Default Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!

Why I will not prefer a CS? Because a hatch with it's rear seats folded will beat the sedan sibling hollow in terms of carrying capacity. This also has to do with the fact that usually I am the only one in my car.

Why will I buy a CS? If I have to travel with >1 more person, i'd like to have a boot for a) storage and b) safety in case of being rear-ended.

So, at the end of the day, more than aspirational value, its the usage pattern which will determine the choice.
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Old 16th April 2015, 23:40   #52
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Default Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!

Dunno whether to call myself an enthusiast, but I'm one of the CS haters out here.

CrAzY dRiVeR has praised the Xcent and Amaze for the rear legroom they offer. Is there really more legroom available for the Xcent/Amaze over the i10 Grand/Brio?? Do we have any objective data here?

The way I see it, CS = Hatchback counterpart + Boot (150 - 170 lit extra storage space).

So the question is, how many times a year am I gonna use this extra boot space?? My answer would be 1 - 2, hence the CS is not gonna make sense for me, and I'm not gonna pay 60 - 100 k extra for the "boot"!


Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post

Our Xcent SX(o) AT ticket all 10 /10 of our requirements for replacing the car for parents.

1. Had to be an automatic transmission.
2. Should be a newer model in the market.
3. Should feel like an upgrade from our old WagonR VXi.
4. Wait, not just an upgrade, but a sedan this time - Mom only had this one requirement.
5. Sedan? But it should be a small car with a good turning radius, otherwise U_turn into our garage could becoming a tricky affair on a daily basis - Father's only requirement.
6. Reversing sensor / Camera - This U_turn into our garage is going to be a very tight one, and any electronic assistance would be great.
7. ABS and airbags.
8. Quality & Feel good factor - Wife only had this one requirement!
9. Good looks - And I had this one additional requirement over and above the feel good factor.
10 Good service network.
Objectively looking at your requirements, other than point 4, there is nothing the i10 Grand can't do which the Xcent does.
Not sure if Airbags and ABS are available as options on the Grand AT Asta - the brochure is not that clear on that.

I'm sorry to say that the article hasn't convinced me to look at a CS as an upgrade from my Santro (whenever that might be)!

PS: Hats off to CrAzY dRiVeR for the effort put into putting all this data together. That kinda enthusiasm is what makes TBHP worth my time!
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Old 16th April 2015, 23:57   #53
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Default Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!

All have forgotten the by-gone Premier Padmini or Fiat 1100D, probably the first CS in India. It was well under 4m(3905mm) but by no means quirky and had a very good boot integration. It looked much more proportionate than the Fiat 500 hatch of the 60s.
And not to forget that it was not cramped unless one is very tall or is of heavy build.
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Old 17th April 2015, 06:37   #54
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Default Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!

Excellent compilation of arguments there CrAzY dRiVeR

Pardon my ignorance but what’s the point here? Isn’t this already a super-successful segment which is churning almost equivalent numbers to hatchbacks?

I guess 'enthusiasts' are called so for a reason. They have their own set of priorities just like the practical folks. You can’t ask an APPLE fan-boy for advise on an ANDROID device & vice versa. You are ought to be disappointed.


Just my 2 cents!!! Cheers

Last edited by SoumenD : 17th April 2015 at 06:51. Reason: removed extra smileys
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Old 17th April 2015, 07:09   #55
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The 4m rules favouring small cars (upto 4m) and smaller, efficient engines is a good thing. Its a policy towards small, efficient cars.

CS are a stopgap arrangement till the behaviour of buyers changes. We have amazing an amazing line up of under 4m cars and will continue to have that in the near future.

Smaller engines that are efficient with decent power are the future. With Europe shifting policy to favour petrol engines we'll see more efficient /turbo charged petrols like the 1.3 mjd/1.5k9k diesel engines that came out of a diesel skewed policy.

CS exists because the Indian market loves them. Because the getz failed as the market was not ready for an expensive hot hatch.

I'm sure if Maruti Suzuki decides to make a large 4m hatch and call it the 'genX dzire' , that will sell too.
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Old 17th April 2015, 07:46   #56
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Default Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!

Even after taking out the enthusiast approach to the compact sedan, there is one thing I just cannot ignore, the looks of a car. It is one of the reasons I drive a sedan that has the least amount of space, is least practical on the inside and has poor driver ergonomics. I can live with all of it. I like a good looking car and there is no taking this away from me. I cannot digest any of these compact sedans. Every one of them looks odd. I am willing to let go of every compact sedan in place of an equally not so nice to look Nissan Sunny. I'd much rather own the big, long Japanese sedan over any of these and it has nothing to do with status. The Sunny's interiors are drab compared to most of the compact sedans too. Let us say there is no Nissan Sunny or above class of car on sale, I will still stick to the hatchbacks cause they look better and I get the giant cargo area (after the seats are flipped) that no compact sedan can offer.

When tbhp reviewed the Tata Zest, I really liked what I saw in pictures. I liked the car when I saw it in person too. Everything changed when I saw the Tata in motion and probably the result of paying more attention to its looks. There was something very odd. Giant alloys wheels that look really nice but a total disconnect to the car that is riding on them. Maybe it is just me but I no longer like the Zest. I think it has the worst stance of all the compact sedans on sale.

I am not a big fan of Korean cars because of the way they drive. However; I am willing to bin everything enthusiast and buy a Elantra just because of its looks. The only thing I don't like about it is the largish, thin rimmed steering wheel.

I have to admit, there is always the enthusiast approach I take when it comes to cars. This thread has cleared all doubts with regard to the compact sedan, it is the winner. It is superb value. You get pretty much everything a full size sedan offers on a compact sedan at a far lesser cost. Even with so much to support a compact sedan, I can't see myself own one. It has to do with the way they look and nothing else.

Last edited by sandeepmohan : 17th April 2015 at 07:48.
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Old 17th April 2015, 08:12   #57
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Red face Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!

Great compilation CD. Hats off for the effort in collecting the details and presenting them in layman terms.

Of course I am an enthusiast. Everytime I see the Maruti Dzire (new), I feel like cursing the MS management for putting the most hideous design on the road (sorry no offence meant to DZire owners).

Was there a lobby by the car manufacturers to force the Indian govt to relax the tax structure for the sub 4 meters cars? Tomorrow if the govt relaxes the limit to 3.5 Metres, I don't think the car manufacturers would hesitate to pass off the standard hatchback as a EMCS (even more compact sedan).

I for one am never going to buy a CS.
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Old 17th April 2015, 08:21   #58
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Default Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!

Well-researched compilation and very well detailed. And it fully holds true for those who consider cars as just a comfortable medium to commute, as an alternative to inefficient/inconvenient public transport. But does it change anything about the facts you have listed about the so-called compact sedans? IMO, they are still (mostly) an eyesore or bad contraptions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
....
...
Sedans have always been more aspirational than hatchbacks, and not just in India. Dont let the Indian enthusiast fool you into that one. Otherwise, why would the A class give birth to the CLA, the minuscule A3 have a sedan variant that is only the size of a Honda City? Why are all the heavy weight luxury cars including the S-class and the Rolls Royce of the world sold in the sedan form - when theoretically - a sedan makes the least utilization of available space as compared to hatchbacks / estates? So if you do want to purchase a sedan (even if its for the neighbours to see), I don't see a reason to squirm in front of that enthusiast who would have preferred a hatchback instead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
...
...
I can already see a few enthusiasts squirming - 'There you go - The cheap Indian mentality is the reason for all this!' Well, care to explain the pricing of the Merc CLA as compared to the A class? That's not a result of the Indian mentality I hope!
Here is where I disagree on the comparisons. Sedans in its true form are desirable across the world, but not in majority of cases were a sedan and hatchback variant are sold side by side. You mentioned CLA as an example, but that's very different from the Indian context. Globally its popular even with a price premium because of its form factor and what it offers. Unlike a Swift/DZire comparison, the CLA does not look like mere boot job on the A-Class. The car looks good, its big on outside, and almost give an affordable option to those who were drooling at the likes of a CLS.

In most of the international markets, the sedan variant is just an option for those who want that added practicality of a boot, and not because of it is desirable. An Audi A3 sedan does not command a premium pricing over its hatchback/sportsback variant. And for many other small cars (Mazda 2/3, Ford Fiesta, Honda Jazz/City, VW Golf/Jetta) the hatchbacks and sedans are priced the same (or in some cases the hatchbacks are more expensive) for the similar trim/engine variant. And in most cases the hatchback variants sell more than the sedan option (e.g.; Golf v/s Jetta).

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
...
...
IMO, in most of the markets around the world. You either get more 'value' from your hatchback, or get a sedan - either by paying more money or by selecting a sedan based on a smaller car. A Scirocco makes more 'sense' than a Jetta, so does the cheaper Golf. B - class makes more 'sense' than the CLA, so does the cheaper A class. This is also seen across other aspirational body styles - the SUV for example. A Ford Focus makes more sense than a Ford Ecosport, so does the cheaper Fiesta. And I'm not even talking of the Indian market yet.
Again, not so convincing arguments there. How does a Scirocco makes more sense than a Jetta? The Gold does sell more than the Jetta, even with a slightly heavier price tag. And why the comparison between a Ford Focus and an Ecosport, which is smaller in size? Even then it does make more sense and thats why a Focus or the Fiesta hatchback sell more than the Ecosport in the global markets. And in favour of the Ecosport - compact crossovers are worldwide phenomenon and not a market specific reaction like the sub-4m sedans.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
5. Enough of this entry level sedan nonsense. If I were you - I would just buy the premium hatchback instead.
On this point, if you are buying a car for yourself now, which one you will choose - an Amaze top-end diesel or a Polo GT TDI / Punto 90?
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Old 17th April 2015, 09:12   #59
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Default Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!

The problem with these compact sedans is that the donor hatchbacks were never designed in a way that a boot would look good on it. And this is true not just for compact sedans. Look at the Manza. It wasn't restricted by the 4m limit, yet looked horrible. The old Dzire was more than 4m, yet looked like a contraption.

Anybody remember the Opel Corsa? The sedan was just 5cm more than 4m. Even at the dimensions of a CS, it was a very good looking car.

So problem is with the donor cars. These tallboys will not look good with a boot stuck on the back and the 4m limit is just making it worse. An Xcent or a Dzire would not look any better even with a longer boot.
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Old 17th April 2015, 09:22   #60
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Default Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!

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Originally Posted by blacksport View Post
Anybody remember the Opel Corsa?
There is no way I can forget the Opel Corsa. It looked superb in black. It looks good even today. If not the quickest or most roomiest in the segment, it was the best to drive for sure.
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