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Old 17th April 2015, 10:44   #61
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Default Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!

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Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!
CrAzY dRiVeR this is a very well written article and CS as a segment was I believe never meant for enthusiasts. If practicality is better with CS why not buy it. Most Indian buyers are looking for it...and your stats show that clearly.

But what I always advise people who are looking for it is to consider comparing not just swift & swift dzire or i10grand with Xccent but a large hatchback.

When I made my purchase (Dec 2012) I went for Jazz over Dzire as it provided better legroom & shoulder room and also bigger boot. I also found the ergnomics and interiors (this is subjective though) to be better with Jazz. And Jazz came with ABS, EBD and 2 Airbags across all variants. So I found Jazz to be more practical over the CS King.
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Old 17th April 2015, 10:55   #62
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Default Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!

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Originally Posted by blacksport View Post
Anybody remember the Opel Corsa? The sedan was just 5cm more than 4m. Even at the dimensions of a CS, it was a very good looking car.
The Corsa sedan also was the result of a boot job from a donor hatch.
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Old 17th April 2015, 11:00   #63
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Default Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!

Another problem with the compact sedans is that they were designed with people who want a sedan at a little more than a hatch, which results in lot of cost cutting. I just looked at the specs for Grand i10 and Xccent and they both have the same size tires! If a car is touting to be bigger, shouldn't it also provide more support in terms of wheel size?
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Old 17th April 2015, 11:12   #64
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Default Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!

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The Corsa sedan also was the result of a boot job from a donor hatch.
Which we are all aware of. My only point was that not all compact sedans (ex corsa) look ugly and not all regular sedans (ex manza) look beautiful.
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Old 17th April 2015, 11:19   #65
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Default Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!

One more point, if boot space is the real reason for the popularity of compact sedans, Why are they not designed as Station wagons(Estate) or elongated hatchbacks? The sedan type boot does not provide for as much optimum utilisation of luggage space.
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Old 17th April 2015, 11:56   #66
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Default Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!

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One more point, if boot space is the real reason for the popularity of compact sedans, Why are they not designed as Station wagons(Estate) or elongated hatchbacks? The sedan type boot does not provide for as much optimum utilisation of luggage space.
And we know what happened to the the Indigo Marina which was a much more practical car than the Indigo sedan.

Same with Baleno/Altura and Octavia/Combi.

Boot is a status symbol. However we try to spin it, it is the bitter truth.
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Old 17th April 2015, 12:17   #67
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Default Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!

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Originally Posted by blacksport View Post
Anybody remember the Opel Corsa?
Yes very much. At 4026 mm it was almost a CS too. Adding to its cool factor, i remember it came with the 1.6 L option!! Looking back , i think GM should have persisted with Opel instead of switching over to chevy.


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One more point, if boot space is the real reason for the popularity of compact sedans, Why are they not designed as Station wagons(Estate) or elongated hatchbacks? The sedan type boot does not provide for as much optimum utilisation of luggage space.
I guess the Datsun Go + Fits your bill.

Its a first mover, so lets wish it all the success.

Last edited by acidkill : 17th April 2015 at 12:22.
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Old 17th April 2015, 12:24   #68
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Default Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!

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Which we are all aware of. My only point was that not all compact sedans (ex corsa) look ugly and not all regular sedans (ex manza) look beautiful.
I thought your point was "that the donor hatchbacks were never designed in a way that a boot would look good on it".

In the 80s and 90s cars were designed with long bonnets. So pasting a boot did not make them look odd.

Definition of a good looking car is very different for enthusiasts and informed buyers and what it is for the general public. For a majority of Indians Sedan > Hatch. The compact sedan allows carmakers to sell their hatchbacks as sedans at a slightly better price. Its good business. They now see our love for SUVs, so we have 'cross' versions. Different flavours for different tastes I guess.
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Old 17th April 2015, 12:57   #69
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Default Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!

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Originally Posted by blacksport View Post
And we know what happened to the the Indigo Marina which was a much more practical car than the Indigo sedan.

Same with Baleno/Altura and Octavia/Combi.

Boot is a status symbol. However we try to spin it, it is the bitter truth.
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Originally Posted by acidkill View Post
I guess the Datsun Go + Fits your bill.

Its a first mover, so lets wish it all the success.
So this brings us back to square one, in our country for the masses Compact Sedan=Status Symbol mentality, the reason you will hardly find any takers for Station wagons which i think provide the real practicality we have been debating about. Manufacturers design what the market demands.

Similarly, in the SUV segment, for the image conscious masses, Pick-up trucks find no acceptance in our country. The real reason why we never got the Toyota Hi-Lux, Ford Ranger and Mitsubishi Tritron but the much higher priced SUV derivatives Fortuner, Endeavour(Everest in other markets) and Pajero Sport(Challenger in some markets) sell in good numbers.
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Old 17th April 2015, 13:32   #70
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Default Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!

Let me add a point to point comparison between my compact sedan and hatch.

My observations on my Polo and my Vento.

Advantage of sedan over hatchback:

1) Suspension on the compact sedans is more forgiving for old people with back pain compared to its bootless brother. As the weight of the boot is taken by the suspension, there is lesser bounce-back effect on speed breakers.

2) The compact sedan has better resale value than its hatchback sibling as there is a good market in rural areas for a second hand sedan.

3) The angle of the rear seat is different in both (more reclined in the Vento and more upright in the Polo) and slightly better rear leg room (I am not so sure of this as I have not measured it, but i have felt this way).

4) Rear AC vents are present in the Vento, but not in the Polo.

5) Hatchbacks have slightly more road noise compared to sedans as the gasket between the trunk and body is not 100% efficient in controlling it. It is near to rear passengers and at ear level.

When compared to a sedan the road noise must pass through two barriers - one is gasket and the other is the rear seat. So there is less road noise at the back.

Advantage of hatchback (Polo) over sedan (Vento) -

1) My Polo's rear tyres do not lose traction on sharp turns compared to my Vento's and there is no bottoming effect due to road undulations.

2) Better high speed manners in the Polo compared to the Vento

3) Easy to park in tight spaces compared to the Vento.

My opinion about the price difference between the the two - I feel the current pricing trends between both is atrocious. In my opinion, the difference must be more than 50K as they are literally the same cars - one with a boot and other without a boot.

I made a few observations in buyer psyche for buying compact sedans rather than buying hatchbacks and medium-sized sedans -

It's not only due to the money factor difference, it's not only due to the length factor difference, it's due to the width of the hatchback and socially premium factor of the sedan compared to the hatchback.

So, why is the width of the hatchback being taken into account for buying a compact sedan?
As our roads are congested, smaller width helps in navigating through traffic, but this is not the point I want to say.

When i read in to the minds, sales of these compact sedans are in the age groups
1. 35-40 years - Newly financially independent family with one or two kids who just moved up from a hatchback due to added luggage and
2. 60-70 years without drivers - People in this group can own a large sedan but the sheer size in our congested traffic situation makes them anxious. So they prefer compact sedans for daily driving.

As a conclusion I'd like to state that it is due to the lesser width of compact sedans, the near length of a medium-sized sedan for added luggage and the social status of a sedan, that customers want to go for compact sedans. I feel it is a great segment both for the manufacturers and customers.

for the long post.

Last edited by Aditya : 17th April 2015 at 16:06. Reason: Typos, language
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Old 17th April 2015, 13:42   #71
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Default Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!

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Originally Posted by Santoshbhat View Post
I thought your point was "that the donor hatchbacks were never designed in a way that a boot would look good on it".

In the 80s and 90s cars were designed with long bonnets. So pasting a boot did not make them look odd.
I said the donor hatches of the ugly sedans (dzire, manza, xcent etc) were not designed keeping sedans in mind.

Corsa, Ikon, Vento/Rapid etc are cars that were built out of hatches but still looks good.
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Old 17th April 2015, 13:44   #72
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Default Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!

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Originally Posted by .anshuman View Post
.......
Similarly, in the SUV segment, for the image conscious masses, Pick-up trucks find no acceptance in our country. The real reason why we never got the Toyota Hi-Lux, Ford Ranger and Mitsubishi Tritron but the much higher priced SUV derivatives Fortuner, Endeavour(Everest in other markets) and Pajero Sport(Challenger in some markets) sell in good numbers......
Social blasphemy! Didn't you know pick up trucks are for vegetable/coconut/blah blah businessmen?

A neighbor drives a Xenon pick-up (he's an enthusiast plus his line of business probably demands the vehicle type). I've forgotten the number of times he's been ridiculed in the locality for driving a 'loading vehicle'. I've spoken to him a few times and he's extremely happy with the purchase and having loads of fun in it. Another neighbor who owns a regular Indian 'SUV' and parks right next to him has never been anywhere off-tarmac in his butch 'status symbol'. He barely manages to drive in/out of the narrow approach lane without having a cardiac arrest everyday!

Last edited by Chetan_Rao : 17th April 2015 at 13:45.
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Old 17th April 2015, 14:25   #73
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Default Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!

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Originally Posted by adevilsdoctor View Post
Let me add a point comparing point between my compact sedan and hatch.....
1)my polo rear tyres do not lose traction in sharp turns compared to my vento and there is no bottoming effect due to road undulations on my polo compared to my vento

2)good high speed manners in polo to vento

3)easy to park in tight spaces when compared to vento
.....
Don't you also find the hatch much more fun to drive than the sedan? I absolutely love what fun the Brio is compared to our City which is quite sedate. Only grouse is the engine, if only Brio had the city one !!
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Old 17th April 2015, 15:31   #74
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Default Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!

I find the whole thread rather odd (no offense to the OP who has put forth some very good points)

The CS segment exists because there is demand and real need for one

One of the lads in my team (single 25 year old male) was planning to buy a Dzire as his personal drive, I gave him 10 reasons why he should look at a Polo/Swift instead

Had it been the case of solo car in a 3/4 member family, the answer would have been the exact opposite

While I won't call myself an enthusiast, if any of my acquaintances ask me for advise on what car south of 10L to buy, the answer is simply based on the demographic and the use case of the individual

There is a major demand for VFM cars with a boot because there is a real need for VFM vehicles that can swallow more than one suitcase on a family trip or airport/railway station trips

With the rise of a reasonably well earning young demographic, the market for hot hatches will also continue to boom
Single boys & girls at the beginning of their career typically wouldn't be got caught dead driving an xcent - That does not make them snobs

At the same time, a family man or woman's needs on a budget are best served by the CSs which for some reason are the so called enthusiasts' favorite whipping toy
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Old 17th April 2015, 16:00   #75
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Default Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!

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Don't you also find the hatch much more fun to drive than the sedan? I absolutely love what fun the Brio is compared to our City which is quite sedate. Only grouse is the engine, if only Brio had the city one !!
Yes,i find driving a hatchback more exciting and peppy in the city limits.

But for the long journey i prefer driving a medium sized sedan.The space inside the medium sized sedan gives me a feeling of safety.
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