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Old 17th April 2015, 16:15   #76
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Default Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!

I'm not so sure about boot space - especially for a customer who's mostly self driven and tend to have not more than one passenger at most.

At that point, versatility of boot space becomes a lot more important than a straight up liter to liter comparison of boot space (rear seat space and comfort also become less important but that's a whole new argument).

There are plenty of people who fall into that category, and for these, a top of the line B or a B+ segment hatchback is a lot more appropriate but sales people push for and people still make the choice of getting a compact sedan. I don't have any issues with people buying a compact sedan for good reasons, but when someone asks me for advice, I tend to be pretty scathing about compact sedans unless there's an absolutely good reason for the person asking.

Case in point, I recently completed a 1600km solo trip with two international travel size suitcases (one of which is even bigger than the norm - did the size go down in recent years?), two carry on sized suitcases, one packed large backpack, one laptop backpack and a few small assorted bags containing random things like food and water. In a Swift ZXi. I had people trying to push me to a lower variant Dzire when I bought that car - but I'm not so sure this trip would have been nearly as easy if I wasn't able to turn everything behind the front seats into luggage - sort of like a two seated wagon.

How many Compact sedans have fold down rear seats?
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Old 17th April 2015, 16:21   #77
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Default Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!

Dear Crazy Driver,

Kudos on the well written post and very well made points. I hope that the following will add some value to the discussion

Firstly, I don’t know if I am an “enthusiast” because like everything, same words can have different connotations to different people. Therefore, I asked Google uncle and he says

“: a person filled with enthusiasm: as
a : one who is ardently attached to a cause, object, or pursuit <a sports car enthusiast>
b : one who tends to become ardently absorbed in an interest

Therefore, I guess I am a bit of an enthusiast since I’m overtly attached to cars (even though I own just 1 car) but I am obsessed by the feeling evoked in me by automobiles

Now that we’ve established that I’m an enthusiast, I am bound by my duty to hate these Compact Sedans – as has been stated by you.

However, let me clarify: I don’t. Why? Because they don’t make me feel anything.

Bear with me, the explanation is a bit lengthy

Automobiles mean different things to different people. So I had to check with Google uncle again and he simply said


: a vehicle used for carrying passengers on streets and roads
Full Definition of AUTOMOBILE
: a usually four-wheeled automotive vehicle designed for passenger transportation

See, this is all that an automobile means to most of the people on this planet (I will ascribe a random percentage, say 80% to this, for my own benefit): “A machine to get from point A to point B”

But we know that the meaning of an automobile is more than that, so much more than that.

A little off-topic, but the other day I was wondering what would encapsulate the meaning of an automobile and I couldn’t think of anything better than Aston Martin’s “POWER, BEAUTY, SOUL”

It’s that simple, and that profound.

Automobiles are a part of us enthusiasts (if I may take the liberty of saying so for others). They provide us joy, exhilaration and a range of other emotions which the other 80% will never experience (even if they do, will disregard).

We are suckers largely for 2 wheeled or the 4 wheeled varieties. Some enthusiasts have also been known to be bonkers for even the 18 wheeled variety as well.

Automobiles rule our heart, we are simply on our knees when it comes to them. Therefore, these 2/4 or 18 wheeled wonders OWN us. We can’t possibly think straight when it comes to them and therefore, we live in compounded misery or shrieking levels of joy depending on how they are treating us.

Can you possibly think of a pragmatic reason why the unreliable Bullets were/are loved so dearly? Or why our off-roading friends spend days and weeks on their knees, elbow deep in mud? Or why people are still trying to restore the 30/40/50 year old (sometimes even older) automobiles which are mechanically inferior in almost every way to the present generation of automobiles?

The simple point I’m trying to make is that when it comes to automobiles, we are the worst people to ask for opinions.

Why, you ask?

Because we will most likely speak from the heart and here’s another lengthy explanation for that.

Even we make automotive decisions based on some sort of compromise. Sometimes, we just can’t afford what we want to buy; sometimes our better halves ask for an SUV when we really want is the Hot Hatch. Sometimes we want the brilliant handling Ford but the parents/adults speak of buying a 7 seater MUV/SUV since you are going to have a family and blah blah blah.
I hope you get the gist.

Therefore, we buy a compromise (atleast 95% do – no basis for the number) and most automobiles on sale today are compromises as well (this statement can be expanded into a thesis as well, another day)

Back to what we’ll tell you!

We’ll tell you what we desire most, what we like and what we dislike. Practicality be damned because we don’t want another person to go through what we went through. We’re good wingmen. That brings me to another point,

I have long believed that an automobile is equivalent to a girl. The way a car looks is analogous to a woman’s looks. When seen for the first time, the automobile should make you feel …(you know the way you feel when you see a good looking lady). Once you get into the cabin, the driving experience is equivalent to the character of a woman. And if bought, the long term ownership of an automobile is equivalent to a marriage or a long term relationship with your better half.

Before brickbats are thrown my way, please note that this is in no way, shape or form a statement to objectifying ladies. It’s about the automobile.

Now, when you ask us what should you buy? Do you really want to know about the fuel economy, the rear leg room or the boot space? Do you really expect us to answer which automobile will suit your status best or do you want us to tell you about the automobile that we think will make you grin every morning, every evening, every trip, every single day?

If you want just the numbers, ask Google uncle, he’ll be more than happy to help. He’s never said no to me so far.

When we tell you don’t buy that ugly compact sedan and buy that more powerful, ridiculously beautiful, superbly handling automobile; We’re not being practical, we’re not being savvy, we’re not being generous, we’re not being petulant, and we’re certainly not being holier than thou.

We’re just being good brothers; we’re trying to ensure that you won’t SETTLE, like we had to.
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Old 17th April 2015, 16:23   #78
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Default Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post

Our Xcent SX(o) AT ticket all 10 /10 of our requirements for replacing the car for parents.

1. Had to be an automatic transmission.
2. Should be a newer model in the market.
3. Should feel like an upgrade from our old WagonR VXi.
4. Wait, not just an upgrade, but a sedan this time - Mom only had this one requirement.
5. Sedan? But it should be a small car with a good turning radius, otherwise U_turn into our garage could becoming a tricky affair on a daily basis - Father's only requirement.
6. Reversing sensor / Camera - This U_turn into our garage is going to be a very tight one, and any electronic assistance would be great.
7. ABS and airbags.
8. Quality & Feel good factor - Wife only had this one requirement!
9. Good looks - And I had this one additional requirement over and above the feel good factor.
10 Good service network.
You started a thread to justify your choice of a compact sedan? Or were you enumerating the thought process you went through? There is nothing wrong in buying what suits you. I am sure the Xcent is a brilliant car among the requirements you listed above.

A bit of disagreement with you though. I do not think that the Xcent looks well proportioned for a sedan. It is still a tad too tall, bonnet is high, and the boot looks absolutely horrible. Who designed those tail lamps BTW?
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Old 17th April 2015, 16:39   #79
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Default Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!

While I appreciate the effort in making this thread, I wonder what was the necessity.
Compact sedans are doing well in the market. People buy them for different reasons - the primary being the sense of 'status' associated with the boot (this feeling though is slowly but surely coming down)
What's the need to an advertisement/justification for a compact sedan?

This thread does nothing to change my viewpoint though and it's probably not going to change people's opinions either.

I never liked compact sedans. I would any day buy a premium hatch rather than a compact sedan at similar price.
And I am not an enthusiast.

The reasons are simple -
Premium hatch looks better
Boot space advantage is minimal if any (I20 gives around 300Liters, new Jazz gives 400 liters)
Practicality/flexibility of hatch is unmatched with split/foldable seats etc.
Typically better quality (I20 over a Xcent, Jazz over Amaze)
Hatch siblings are typically more fun to drive

My arguments are based on comparing a premium hatch with a compact sedan at similar price. People might buy the compact sedan over its hatch sibling for some additional rear space, boot space etc (Swift vs Dzire.. Xcent vs Grand I10).

I think now the market is matured enough to accept premium hatches. The glowing success of Elite I20 is a proof of that. I think going forward premium hatch segment is going to expand and the compact sedan segment is going to shrink. The new Honda Jazz is also going to be a big success if Honda prices it competitively.
Can you provide some reason to buy a Dzire or Xcent over an I20?

Last edited by adimicra : 17th April 2015 at 16:44.
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Old 17th April 2015, 17:30   #80
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Default Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!

A thread written with a lot of effort and evident passion. You would have spent hours compiling all these data, photos and then put them all together in neat order. And I do not know how many hours spent in thinking about these 15 points

Though I have driven many cars, I have only owned three. Thus have extensive experience in only these. Two of them have been sedans - Nissan Sentra and Toyota Corolla. And one a hatchback - i20. Based on this limited experience and also based on the realities of India - congested roads, small parking spaces, high fuel cost vis-a-vis paycheck, my dream car is a compact SUV. Something of the size of a Yeti, but less costly & with an auto-box. Thus for my next car I may go for iX25. And if someone asks for my second choice for car based on body-type, I will go for a hatchback. Sedan will be third choice.

Within this third rung choice, my preference is for > 4m sedans ahead of the < 4m ones. This is purely from an aesthetic perspective (and I know that is subjective )
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Old 17th April 2015, 18:37   #81
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Default Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!

Originally Posted by sleepyk View Post
Even in the higher segments, there is an indirect effect.
Because B segment is capped at 1.3L petrol and 1.6L diesel, C segment cars are increasingly being equipped with smaller engines.
Just as an example, people say the original Honda City had a much punchier engine than the current one.
The Baleno had a 1.6L engine, and was considered a joy to drive, while the Ciaz has a 1.4L engine which is a bit sluggish. But the average driver who's upgrading from an i10 or Indigo CS won't feel it because he's always driven a weak engine.
Yes, there are regulations for engine capacity beyond the 4M rule. But the Ciaz or the City are not compromised sedans (looks, space and engine performance) and the reason they don't have engines as the erstwhile Baleno or VTEC is not because of regulations.

Can anyone get an answer for Why Amaze Diesel top speed is capped at 140KmpH or something?

Originally Posted by aktarcar View Post
Esteem/Baleno/Accent/iKon were well proportioned and also packed-in amazing engines. In the craze for sub 4 meters the joy of driving is robbed away.

For the kind of legroom the Dzire offers, I find it ridiculous to pay Sedan category Taxi tariff; forget about buying one.
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Old 17th April 2015, 18:49   #82
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Default Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!

I think most people these days buy cars after researching them thoroughly. And if someone bought a CS after having such a review of her/his requirements, there is no reason to deride them by saying that they are buying a CS only because they think that it is a status symbol over a hatchback.

I owned a Swift VDi for three years and drove it 90,000 km in that time, including a road trip from Bangalore to Vaishnodevi, and several really long drives of similar nature.

I've always been tempted to buy myself another Swift diesel, but if I buy today, I'll surely buy the Dzire. The reason is simple- it has a boot, which offers more storage space than the current Swift hatch, and hence gives that much more flexibility, while not consuming significantly more parking space. And when you look at the Amaze or the Zest, their boots are not exactly small/non-practical either.

I genuinely think this segment offers a lot of practicality, without having to spend big bucks for a boot, which you might or might not use, depending on how you use your vehicle. For most small families, a CS is a huge plus over a hatch.

So I totally agree with the points made in the first post in this thread- Compact Sedans are an idea whose time has come (and don't think I'm a Rahul Gandhi fan because I said it that way )
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Old 17th April 2015, 20:27   #83
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Originally Posted by kiku007 View Post
Yes, there are regulations for engine capacity beyond the 4M rule. But the Ciaz or the City are not compromised sedans (looks, space and engine performance) and the reason they don't have engines as the erstwhile Baleno or VTEC is not because of regulations.

For the kind of legroom the Dzire offers, I find it ridiculous to pay Sedan category Taxi tariff; forget about buying one.
My point of view is that this is an indirect effect of regulation.
The regulation is affecting the segment below these cars, which then leads the car makers to use the engines that they would've used in B+ segment in the C segment.

From the point of view of most manufacturers, if B+ has a 1.3L engine, then even a wimpy 1.5L engine will be enough of an upgrade to satisfy C segment buyers. Drivers like us aren't their target market, buyers are.
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Old 17th April 2015, 22:35   #84
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Default Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!

I have an Amaze. The reason I have it is because
1. The Brio boot is a joke
2. The rear leg room for Brio is too less that my family found it uncomfortable.

I have and always will be a biker at heart. The reason I got a car was because I wanted to get used to driving a 4 wheeler and I rather enjoy it now. I wanted to get a Brio. Reason - I found it very cute. Also, it's a very good car and I loved it when I did a test drive. I TD a lot of other hatchbacks after it, including Grand i10 and Polo. I didn't feel at home on the i10. Though I loved the Polo, I had heard that its maintenance would be expensive.

Why I decided on Amaze?
1. I wanted a Honda, a Brio specifically but went for the Amaze as it is almost the same.
2. Bigger legroom in the back - made my folks happy.
3. Boot - At 400 liters, this is good for any trip.
4. Its drive-ability in city is almost same as that of Brio.

I am an enthusiast, but not for cars - I am an enthusiast for bikes
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Old 18th April 2015, 08:00   #85
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Default Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!

Originally Posted by apachelongbow View Post
Its not just the CS which are Frankenstein hybrids, the newly evolving and super ugly compact muv or LUV or some other UV kind of segment is one more such.

India I think looks for some kind of all-rounders in cars
This is not just an Indian phenomenon buddy. The world is moving towards more and more all-rounders. Sharing the worst I've come across recently. A luxury car maker trying their hand at a compact hatchback, which got converted to a crossover later and now morphing into a compact crossover coupe.

Our market has hatchbacks trying to become an all-rounder budget sedan. If you call those 'Frankenstein hybrids', what would you call these?
Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!-006.jpg

Originally Posted by ChupaRustam View Post
So basically this segment basically refers to Dzire and its wannabees.
Every segment is made up of wannabees who want to try and steal some sales of a car that went on to create success in a segment. The C segment has been a segment consisting of City and its wannabees for sometime now, till Verna gave a tough fight to the third generation City. With the 4th generation the tables are again turned.

MUV segment is made up of Innova and its wannabees. When Maruti realized that it could go compact instead of directly competing against the mighty Innova - the compact MUV segment was formed.

Ecosport has been another sales success combining the sub-4m pricing with huge profitability and sales. Now, it will soon get is own share of wannabees starting with the Suzuki YBA.

Originally Posted by ChupaRustam View Post
Note that City etc cars aren't just a little bigger as compared to Amaze etc ones, they are a whole new quality standard higher in terms of component tolerances and build quality. In fact Amaze has same width internally as City or mobilio, only length is few centimeters more.
Brio and Mobilio, you mean?
Originally Posted by ChupaRustam View Post
If I were to extend your logic, then why a 'special' looking car such as WagonR is rocking sales will lead to over a dozen questions too.
Sure it has to be. And i had mentioned this in the previous post as well. I had an early generation WagonR and the enthusiast's community had totally flamed it long back due to the oddball looks. But I see many adopting the same now realizing the practicality of the tall design. It is not fun to drive - but that doesn't mean the car doesn't have its own advantages. Design and fun to drive are not the only two factors to look for, right? May be for us, yes. But that is our preference only - and doesn't make a car worthless.

Originally Posted by Carpainter View Post
I appreciate your effort CD for compiling this long thread and it was needed indeed. You rightly said that cs are here to stay.

I always wonder why form factors like notchback, fastback/aeroback were not considered here in India. See for example these clean designs:
From the looks of it, it seems a sedan can be designed within 4m and yet without making it ugly and disproportionate. It's just that the manufacturers are not brave enough to experiment with their designs and they are happy to build cars which sell well eventhough they (cars) are ugly. Otherwise who wouldn't have loved something like this:
Thanks for the comments and a very nice reply.

Would you agree with me that the beauty of the designs you have shared is that they are low-slung, and not the fact that they are notch-backs. You see, most of the notchbacks including the old Accent Viva has boots very similar to the current DZire or Xcent. But the hatchbacks on which these cars were designed were having less overall height and so the design could be pulled off.

When customers started demanding more comfort, manufacturers had to increase the height of their sedans and hatchbacks as well. Would you believe that the new Honda City is almost as tall as a Renault Duster (sans the roof rails)? It is only the length that is compensating for it. Unfortunately, length is what this segment has to forego, thereby compromising a bit on beauty.

What you get inturn is interiors space and packaging. The space inside most of these compact sedans are more than what the Accent / Fiesta Classic had, despite being shorter.

Originally Posted by hemanth.anand View Post
That's some effort you have taken CD. Nice article.

And if anybody questions your choice; In a Deepika Padukone style, say "Buying a Compact sedan... #mychoice"
If you don't like a CS, "Hey, you are an Enthusiast"

Hilarious. You just condensed one day of my effort into two words... What more do I say!

Originally Posted by fiat_tarun View Post
Having said that, like Carpainter has mentioned, if these had been made into notchbacks, the practicality bar would raise so much higher !

I was a big fan of the Accent Viva and almost bought one (used) when I was searching for my first car.

The only reason I can think of, as to why manufacturers aren't doing notchbacks is cost. Or maybe a notchback under 4m would make it too similar to it's hatch sibling ??!

I think of all these hatch to CS, Sedan to hatch / CS designs the worst design award has to go to Mahindra. Seriously, what were the designers thinking when they designed the boot to open like this
True on the notchback part. I dont think they would make any difference to the design aspect, but yes - the practicality would have been higher for sure. Add to that a foldable rear seat and no one would ever complain of the boot size anymore.

Hence I think both your points a valid as to why the manufacturers haven't adopted the notchback form yet. But who knows - may be if someone is following this thread and get some wicked ideas. Lol!

And I totally agree on the Mahindra and thats why I never mentioned it too! The costs savings compared to the regular Verito is not that significant either.

Originally Posted by acidkill View Post
Well congrats man. I can't say that i have never owned a CS. At 4095mm (95mm extra) the Maruti 1000 was the first CS In India. It probably is the cool uncle of the Dzire i guess. It was my college car and I had a blast in that.

I am sure any of the "CS" cars today are much better than it . So Full power to anyone who owns one.
It definitely was one of the coolest cars of its time.

And it was one of the first CS too (almost), being a booted version of the Swift hatchback. Like i mentioned above - what helped the design in those days were the fact that the cars were designed to be a lot lower and hence could pull off a boot design within such proportions of length, gracefully. But this also compromises a lot on space.
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Originally Posted by dr.surgeon1985 View Post
1. I wonder at people who say a CS makes more sense than a C segment Sedan as it is more practical in urban conditions.
Would you agree when people say that hatchbacks make more sense than C segment sedans and is more practical in urban conditions? Then why not the CS segment which measures the same in length as these premium hatchbacks?

Originally Posted by dr.surgeon1985 View Post
2. I think a compact sedan would do what the A3, X1 and the A and B class have done to the entry level luxury sedan- they would gradually push the pricing of the C segment sedan higher up.

To directly compare - we now have the ecosport,i20 cross, xcent, dzire, etc all in the 8.5 to 9.5 lac bracket, where the C segment sedans had a fleet of good top end options available not long ago. In contrast, most top end sedans are priced at above 12 lacs OTR now.
Very valid point sir. Very very valid.

The recently launched Honda City VX(o) has crossed the 15L OTR barrier in bangalore. The taxes are higher here, but still seems like a lot of money. The C segment is slowly going up indeed.

However, the compact sedans ideally replaced cars like the Ikon, Fiesta Classic, Etios, Accent etc who were always there as sedan under the C segment. They were based on thrown out chasis from international markets and were 'bootified' for the indian market. Now, which of these would you qoute as 'Indians taking anything thrown at them'? A new compact sedan custom made for the Indian market and rules? Or a old international platform modified with a boot and priced low for India?

Originally Posted by DCEite View Post
And with 407 litres of boot space
Brings up an interesting question. Doesn't it?

People say that compact sedans only add another 100L to hatchbacks. But then they dont realize that 100L could mean the difference between 'my car has this limitation of small boot size' and 'my car is a good all-rounder'. Of course, the amount of boot space required is different for different people / families. But I think 350 - 400 litres hit the sweet spot.
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Old 18th April 2015, 08:28   #86
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Default Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!

Clubbing together similar replies.

Originally Posted by pgsagar View Post
Sorry CD. BTW, I think you own an Xcent. Tryin' to convince other, yeah...?
Originally Posted by blacksport View Post
You started a thread to justify your choice of a compact sedan?
We have Xcent as well at home (Native), which was bought for parents.

Ownership report here - http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/test-d...automatic.html (Good things come in small packages - Our Hyundai Xcent SX(O) Automatic)

If you see the point number 4 in the opening post itself - I have mentioned that mom wanted a sedan this time around. Dont you think I would be shooting myself in the foot if I were to defend my choice in a wrong way with numbers and stats now? As mentioned in that thread written quite some time back - Xcent was bought since it was the one of the only two cars that met all our requirements. And the other one was the Ford Ecosport which Ford decided not to sell to us.

And guys. Xcent isn't 'my' car. 'My' car is this.
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I believe its one car that everyone who opposes the compact sedan segment here in terms of 'design' wouldn't mind purchasing. Now that I have a taste of both medicines - let me say that the Xcent truly beats the Punto hollow in several areas that matter for a small family - be it space, boot space, quality, equipment, price, refinement and what not! Must say that this has made me think about the value the segment provides, and why the popularity. I believe it makes for a good objective discussion - although I was prepared for some brick bats on the design front.

If i were to start creating threads for defending my purchases, there would have been 10,000 FIAT threads by now. And one soon after every month sales thread is published.

Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
That was hitting below the.. timing belt !
Timing belt.

Last edited by CrAzY dRiVeR : 18th April 2015 at 08:31.
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Old 18th April 2015, 08:53   #87
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Default Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!

I wish to quote a post by @Hayek from another compact sedan thread (started by me with an opposite POV to this thread).
The success of the sub 4 m sedans like the Dzire has always amazed me. These cars offer inferior boot space to versatile hatches like the Jazz, but far outsell them and command a higher price. The fact that all these products are made for India tells us something about the odd psychology of the mid end Indian car buyer.
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ml#post3276880 (Compact sedan? No thank you!)

No matter how many points are mentioned in favour of compact sedans, this wild success ultimately boils down to social hierarchy of car-shapes in our minds.

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Old 18th April 2015, 09:40   #88
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Default Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!

Originally Posted by kiku007 View Post
Ten years down the line, how will India's two decades of Automotive History look like? A sea of disproportionate 4M contraptions (Minimum of 2 from every Mass Manufacturer). What a pleasant history.

However logical or practical the offerings of the manufacturers be or the choices the customers make, the 4M rule killed DECENT performance petrol engines (Sub 10L) in this country and gave birth to ridiculous looking cars which only capitalized on people's aspiration and nothing else.
Ah! Someone had to point this out. Thanks.

Lets talk history - what all options were available for similar money before the sub-4m rule came in place.

1. Ford Fiesta Mark IV / Ford Ikon.

International version came out in 1995 and the facelift that we shared the body panels with came out in 1999, the same year in which the Ikon was introduced in India. With a boot. Had a 70bhp 1.3 petrol engine, a 68bhp 1.4 diesel engine but is more known for its 1.6L petrol unit that had 92 bhp I guess. Boot space was 400L? I believe the 1.6 was discontinued when the Fiesta classic came out. Discontinued in 2010 IIRC after 15 years of the platform.

2. Ford Fiesta Mark V / Ford Fiesta Classic.

Introduced internationally in 2002. Came to India by end 2005 as the Fiesta with a boot. Had 1.4 80bhp petrol , 1.6 petrol with 100 bhp and and 1.4 diesel with 68ps. Boot capacity of 430L. The platform is 13 years strong and still running.

Replacement: Figo Aspire. Yet to be launched and based on a new platform. Expected to have an 80 bhp 1.2 petrol, a 109 bhp 1.5 petrol and 100 bhp 1.5 diesel. http://www.team-bhp.com/news/rumour-...earbox-options

3. Hyundai Accent 2nd gen.

Introduced internationally and in our market by 1999 and discontinued in 2013 after 14 years of service. Boot space of 380 litres. Had a 1.5 petrol 94bhp, 1.5 diesel 82 bhp and a limited edition 1.6L.

Replacement: Hyundai Xcent. Had more interior space, more bootspace (Up by 27L), a 1.2L petrol with 81 bhp but rated higher than the old 1.5 (Remember the Korean horses jokes?). The diesel is a 1.1L but not limited by the sub 4m rules and hyundai seems to be working on a 1.4 diesel as well which has 89bhp.

4. Suzuki Swift Cultus / Maruti Esteem.

Introduced in 1988. Came to India in 1994 and sold till 2008. 376L boot space. 85hp 1.3 petrol, 57hp TUD5 diesel options.

Current replacement: Swift DZire. 316L boot space (Down by 50 litres), 1.2L 86 bhp petrol and 1.3L 75bhp diesel options. Much better interior space and comfort.

5. Corsa B / Opel Corsa.

Introduced internationally in 1993. Sold in India till 2005. Had 1.4 petrol and 1.6 petrol options - both were not rated high among enthusiasts. Good ride quality though.

Replacement: Chevrolet Sail. Not a sub -4m sedan, still gets a 1.2 petrol and the national diesel engine options.

What am I getting at?

1. This segment has always been ruled by cost cutting. Manufacturers did that by using old platforms of existing hatchbacks and using them for the indian market. All CS platforms are based on new hatchback platforms that help them keep costs low. What would you prefer?

2. The power figures of modern 1.2 engines meet the 1.4 and 1.5 petrols of the older ones. I dont think we miss anything other than the Fiesta 1.6 petrol? And for the Aspire, a high performance petrol may be on offer. So do we miss the Fiesta?

3. All these cars were only slightly above 4m. They looked good not because of the length, but because they were based on low slung hatchbacks. Not the case anymore as customers want more space.

4. Speaking of space - they all had less interior space than the current generation of compact sedans. I have used both Fiesta and Accent both in close circles and they both dont match up to the interior space on offer in the current Xcent or Amaze.

5. And boot space, something that we ridicule the compact segment for - is more than these earlier generation cars!

Do we prefer the international makers adopting to the Indian market and making specialized products for Indian tastes and rules. Or do we want them to add a boot to their old international hatchback and send it to India?

PS - No Europeans have jumped into the CS bandwagon yet. I guess the FTD factor might change once they (Ford and next VW) do! I know ford is american, but most of the products they send our way has European flair.

Last edited by CrAzY dRiVeR : 18th April 2015 at 09:42.
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Old 18th April 2015, 10:24   #89
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Default Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!

Originally Posted by Kratos453 View Post
For example you compared the leg room of Xcent with linea to showcase that compact sedans have higher leg room. Now let's do a comparison of Dzire against Ciaz and Amaze again City and see who triumphs who. I am comparing cars from same families to make a fair comparison.
Valid point on the fair comparison.

However, my point was only to say that the segment is not 'cramped' as people claim. The interior space in Xcent / Zest / Amaze is more than what is available in Verna / Linea which are termed acceptable, but we claim CS segment is cramped. Lol. Because its a CS.

Now let me play by your rules. Let me compare Amaze D against City D. Both huge sellers. Top end Amaze retails at 8.21L and City at 11.83L. Thats a cool 3.6L difference which translates to about 4.5 - 5L depending on which City you are living in.

Performance - Same 1.5 diesel. Same specs.
Interior space - Amaze has enough. City has 30% more.
Boot space - Amaze has 400L which is quite enough. City has 25% more at 500L.
Handling - Both handle good. City is undertyred as stock though.
Interior Quality - I dont agree with both. But City is a better than Amaze for sure.

All said and done - 5 lakhs more? Yes, may be worth it. But dont you think Amaze is not a bad deal for people who don't want as much as the City, at a cool 5 lakhs less? City petrol makes more sense thanks to the 1.5 petrol though.

Now, DZire v/s Ciaz.

Cabin space and leg room: We all know how cramped Dzire is.
Handling: The handling of Ciaz is way better than Dzire.
Ride quality: Once again Ciaz scores and scores big.
Interior quality: Ciaz scores.
Boot: Not a comparison against the mighty boot space of Ciaz.
Engine: Ciaz scores again.
Engine - Ciaz scores? I have a chart prepared on page 1. Please see my comments there. Same 1.3 diesel in VGT guise and a 1.4 petrol, both offset by the weight difference. The actual difference between DZire and Ciaz is very less.
Boot: Agreed. Ciaz offers 50% more.
Ride quality, handling: Please read up both team-bhp reviews. DZire has excellent ride quality and handling. Ciaz is similar but not much better. To add - it has a poor steering calibration compared to DZire.
Interiors: Agreed. But DZire is not a bad place too. With so many parts shared.

DZire ZDi comes in at 7.21L compared to Ciaz at 10.31L ex-showroom. Again a 4L - 4.5 L difference compared to the compact sedan.

I'm never arguing at the C segment car is any lesser than it is. I'm only saying that the C segment being what it is - the compact sedans are not to be dismissed - given the price difference.

Originally Posted by aktarcar View Post
True that. You echoed my thoughts. Esteem/Baleno/Accent/iKon were well proportioned and also packed-in amazing engines. In the craze for sub 4 meters the joy of driving is robbed away.
Have replied in the earlier post regarding my views on this. I dont think joy of driving will be lost as long as demand is there.

Polo 1.2 TSi, 1.5 GT TDi, Punto 90hp all confirm to the sub-4m rules. Lets wait for the Figo Aspire / VW compact sedan before we predict an early death for 'joy of driving', shall we?

Originally Posted by fighterace View Post
So, at the end of the day, more than aspirational value, its the usage pattern which will determine the choice.
Now that is the right choice!

Originally Posted by Geo_Ipe View Post
So the question is, how many times a year am I gonna use this extra boot space?? My answer would be 1 - 2, hence the CS is not gonna make sense for me, and I'm not gonna pay 60 - 100 k extra for the "boot"!
When you keep a car for 5-6 years, that would be about 10 - 12 times with a feeling of having something less. 100L - 150L might sound less, but it makes a does make the car a better all-rounder. I would still prefer a foldable rear seat for added flexibility though - be it sedans or hatchbacks.

Originally Posted by Geo_Ipe View Post
Objectively looking at your requirements, other than point 4, there is nothing the i10 Grand can't do which the Xcent does.
Not sure if Airbags and ABS are available as options on the Grand AT Asta - the brochure is not that clear on that.

PS: Hats off to CrAzY dRiVeR for the effort put into putting all this data together. That kinda enthusiasm is what makes TBHP worth my time!
Thanks for the kind words.

Unfortunately no. Both i20 and Grand i20 skip on good automatic options. Covered in the main page itself. Manufacturers give preference to CS because they obviously get more profits. I dont see any other reason why DZire gets automatic while Swift does not. Also - see the attitude shown by Honda against the Brio.

Originally Posted by 100kmph View Post
All have forgotten the by-gone Premier Padmini or Fiat 1100D, probably the first CS in India. It was well under 4m(3905mm) but by no means quirky and had a very good boot integration. It looked much more proportionate than the Fiat 500 hatch of the 60s.
And not to forget that it was not cramped unless one is very tall or is of heavy build.
Unfortunately, safety norms killed such designs long ago. I have a modern FIAT which is still under 4m and looks beautiful, but does not have the interior space that the Padmini once had.

Originally Posted by SoumenD View Post
Pardon my ignorance but what’s the point here?

I guess 'enthusiasts' are called so for a reason. They have their own set of priorities just like the practical folks. You can’t ask an APPLE fan-boy for advise on an ANDROID device & vice versa. You are ought to be disappointed.
The point is - to have an objective discussion. I dont want to enforce my view point on anyone.

Qouting Ranjnikant from one of his movies -
'I can do it' is confidence.
'Only I can do it' is arrogance.

If an apple fanboy dismissed Android without evaluating it properly - that would go to the latter. I switched from Android to Apple after many years of using the former and I'm frankly disappointed. But thats my view and I have my experience to back it up. Similarly, I move from a CS hater and Punto owner to evaluating and purchasing a CS - and I feel there are many factors to be appreciated.

Design is subjective. But see how many replies in the thread focus on quantitative aspects like boot space, interior space etc?

Originally Posted by drsingh View Post
The 4m rules favouring small cars (upto 4m) and smaller, efficient engines is a good thing. Its a policy towards small, efficient cars.
True. The world is migrating towards smaller and efficient designs.

Originally Posted by sandeepmohan View Post
I am willing to let go of every compact sedan in place of an equally not so nice to look Nissan Sunny. I'd much rather own the big, long Japanese sedan over any of these and it has nothing to do with status. The Sunny's interiors are drab compared to most of the compact sedans too. Let us say there is no Nissan Sunny or above class of car on sale, I will still stick to the hatchbacks cause they look better and I get the giant cargo area (after the seats are flipped) that no compact sedan can offer.
Now that is truly a personal decision. And our tastes match. Lol. Both with a FIAT and the Elantra.

That said - How about paying 4L -4.5L OTR more for the Sunny and having the same interiors, engine and driving characteristics of the Micra, with only huge rear legroom and boot to boast off. Worth the price? And I find the Sunny too elongated for that design, just as ugly as the compact sedans.

If someone puts a gun on my head and asks to choose between Amaze / Xcent and the Sunny - I would choose the compact sedan and save some money atleast.
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Old 18th April 2015, 11:36   #90
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Default Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!

Leaving aside the beaters of our house (Indigo, Sunny), the other cars we've bought are the Jeep, Lancer, 1st-gen City Vtec, C220 & Civic. Another nice ride will be joining the garage soon. As you can see, looks, quality & engine are very important to me.

That's precisely why I would buy a premium hatchback over a compact sedan. If I were to pick one today, it would be the Elite i20 diesel. Better styling, quality, features, engine & refinement than any compact sedan out there. Other than the Zest, every compact sedan seems like a compromise of sorts. But the i20 or Polo TSI are as good as a hatchback can get. Both also get fairly accommodating 280 - 285 liter boots. For the rare occasion that I absolutely need that extra 100 liters of boot space, I'll rent a Zoom or Myles car, if it came to that.

The Elite i20 does outsell every compact sedan out there, save for the indomitable Dzire.

Last edited by GTO : 18th April 2015 at 13:11.
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