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Old 18th April 2015, 12:17   #91
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Default Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!

Listing down the points you've mentioned serially, I find that these are issues that we think of when we compare any car - whether it is between makes, models or class

1. Make X/Segment X vehicles are ugly. Disproportionate and are designed as an afterthought.

2, Whatever, it is still a hatchback trying to look like a sedan. Why not buy the hatchback instead? : Applicable for most compact and subcompact sedans

3. Ok, might be the case. But you are paying so much more for just a boot! : Again applicable for any decision regarding boot Something even an XUV buyer would wonder about

4. So you want a sedan. And you want it cheap! Why not get a proportionate small sedan then? Verito / Etios / Fiesta Classic/ Chevrolet Sail? : same as point 1

5. Enough of this entry level sedan nonsense. If I were you - I would just buy the premium hatchback instead : Again a thought process of anyone comparing across segments, not only sub 4m sedans

6. At approximately 20 - 30% higher we are getting VW Vento, Nissan Sunny, Honda City etc. So why not upgrade to that? : Upgrade is again in the mind of any purchaser. (If I pay x amount more I can buy higher segment car)

7. But these cars have proper bootspace - which offer decent storage space. Compact sedans have miniscule boot similar to the hatchback siblings : Same as point 3

8. Not only bootspace, these compact sedans are cramped for interior space
: Precisely something I should think about whether I buy a Alto or a 5 series.

9. Its not only about space. These cars will have better performance compared to the segment Iam considering/model Iam considering!

10. Safety? Now you cant argue on that one! The quality of sheet metal used on these compact sedans are pathetic (No yard stick - so am ignoring)

11. Features? The other segment/make have more goodies!

13. Its not like the manufacturer is doing you a favour by offering a compact sedan : Eh? Not clear. Which manufacturer is doing anyone a favour?

14. Dude, if you are hell bent on sub 4m - why dont you consider the sub 4m Ford Ecosport instead? : If you are hell bent on any one particular feature, it may be available across segments. People are not hell bent on sub 4m, but on value Vs price equation

So finally I come to your point 15 and ask

15. So, what is the whole point?



What you have done, dear Crazydriver, is list down a few decision making issues every car purchaser undergoes, irrespective of the segment

Should appreciate your efffort though. Cheers
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Old 18th April 2015, 12:19   #92
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Default Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!

Sorry, I'll have to disagree to most of the points based on facts. I owned a Ikon 1.3L for 5+ years and currently own a Fiesta 1.6L for 5+ Years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post

What am I getting at?

1. This segment has always been ruled by cost cutting. Manufacturers did that by using old platforms of existing hatchbacks and using them for the indian market. All CS platforms are based on new hatchback platforms that help them keep costs low. What would you prefer?
Do you really think you've got your facts correct? What options did people have in 1999-2001 when the Ikon and Accent came? In what aspect was cost cutting blatantly evident to Indian consumers in that period? Please don't harp on this 'OLD PLATFORM' without taking into consideration on what the market had at that time. If the same platform was used across countries/vehicles, it's cost effective. That's the fact, I don't know what you are trying to drive here wrt CS sedans.

Quote:
2. The power figures of modern 1.2 engines meet the 1.4 and 1.5 petrols of the older ones. I dont think we miss anything other than the Fiesta 1.6 petrol? And for the Aspire, a high performance petrol may be on offer. So do we miss the Fiesta?
If the comparison is to on-paper power, yes the Amaze is better than the Ikon 1.3L. Drive the two on the road, you'll know what we are missing.

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All these cars were only slightly above 4m. They looked good not because of the length, but because they were based on low slung hatchbacks. Not the case anymore as customers want more space.
They looked GOOD because they were designed to look GOOD. Aesthetics was thrown out of window to design 3 Box 4M compact sedans. If you can't agree to this, I really don't think we have anything more to discuss.

Quote:
Speaking of space - they all had less interior space than the current generation of compact sedans. I have used both Fiesta and Accent both in close circles and they both dont match up to the interior space on offer in the current Xcent or Amaze.
The Ikon had a fantastic rear seat. Even better than the Fiesta Classic IMHO. I'm about 6 feet, and I feel claustrophobic and cramped in the 4M Compact Sedans. I'm comfortable in proper sedans like Vento, Sunny (who wouldn't be) etc. At the same time I'm at loss for head room in Linea and the Fiesta has weirdly setup backrest angle and neck restrains. It's about packaging and not just overall length. But when you post a point like, Ikon's space can't match Xcent or Amaze, I'll have to take it with loads of salt.

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5. And boot space, something that we ridicule the compact segment for - is more than these earlier generation cars!
Surprised.

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Do we prefer the international makers adopting to the Indian market and making specialized products for Indian tastes and rules. Or do we want them to add a boot to their old international hatchback and send it to India?
I actually don't care about either. I'm only bothered about the end product. Can't see why either of them is bad in anyway.

I've read very good threads and posts of you and I'm quite surprised that this thread and the arguments are kind of bordering on fanboyism.

Last edited by Aditya : 20th April 2015 at 12:50. Reason: Please use the Quote function the correct way
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Old 18th April 2015, 14:33   #93
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Default Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!

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Originally Posted by kiku007 View Post
Please don't harp on this 'OLD PLATFORM'

I'm quite surprised that this thread and the arguments are kind of bordering on fanboyism.
Thank you.

Would appreciate a mutually respectable tone however. That was my first reply to you in the thread and the first time i mentioned 'old platform'. It was not there in the opening post. Not sure where i was harping and why I'm being a fanboy when I only presented my arguments and my knowledge.

You are welcome to disagree on it factually.

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Originally Posted by kiku007 View Post
Sorry, I'll have to disagree to most of the points based on facts. I owned a Ikon 1.3L for 5+ years and currently own a Fiesta 1.6L for 5+ Years.
Sorry if i offended you. The post was on all cars of the time. Not just the Fiesta or the Ikon. And you can correct me if any of my facts are wrong.

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Originally Posted by kiku007 View Post
Do you really think you've got your facts correct? What options did people have in 1999-2001 when the Ikon and Accent came? In what aspect was cost cutting blatantly evident to Indian consumers in that period? Please don't harp on this 'OLD PLATFORM' without taking into consideration on what the market had at that time. If the same platform was used across countries/vehicles, it's cost effective. That's the fact, I don't know what you are trying to drive here wrt CS sedans.
Didn't I write what all options were available and when it was introduced. Also, these options were expensive when it came to our market. The costs really came down only after a few years once the tooling costs and investment recovery was done.

You share platforms across the globe - that surely is a method of cost cutting. Agreed. But unfortunately - it doesn't work that way due to currency differences etc. The Dacia Logan which is one of the cheapest sedans out there became expensive when it reached here. The Chinese Sail went over our heads as well, as did the Etios which feels way more dated inside that a Ford Ikon as well.

Manufacturers chose to bring in older hatchbacks of theirs in a cost effective manner to the Indian market as sedans earlier. Now, they have resorted to bringing in new versions, which go under the sub-4m radar and thereby keeping costs competitive.

I believe we wouldnt have been so passionate in our hate towards the Amaze or Xcent or Zest or Aspire (I purposefully leave out DZire, Verito Vibe) if they had been showcased without their equivalent hatchbacks alongside.

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Originally Posted by kiku007 View Post
If the comparison is to on-paper power, yes the Amaze is better than the Ikon 1.3L. Drive the two on the road, you'll know what we are missing.
Isn't that a Ford to Honda difference? Or Suzuki or Hyundai? I agree on the Ikon Flair. Used to drive it during college days and it was excellent.

However, coming back to your original point on how the compact sedans 'killed performance' - as i mentioned earlier. FE requirements killed it, but let us wait till the Europeans join the hunt. What if the Polo 1.2 TSi is made available in a compact? Since Polo has it, they should be able to offer that. Or even the rumoured Suzuki turbo petrols? Performance is evolving. The old NA engines are giving way to smaller turbo petrols everywhere, not just India.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kiku007 View Post
They looked GOOD because they were designed to look GOOD. Aesthetics was thrown out of window to design 3 Box 4M compact sedans. If you can't agree to this, I really don't think we have anything more to discuss.
Didn't I agree?

I'm only telling the reason they looked good. Relax the sub-4m rules and you still cannot make a sedan like the Fiesta out of Grand i10 / Swift / Brio simply because they are all tall designs. Any good sedan designs out of these cars will also end up in the C segment. Designs have grown taller to accomodate for more interior room. As i mentioned in another post earlier, the Honda City is almost as tall as a Renault Duster if you remove the roof rails. It looks proportionate because of the length. Compare the height of the first generation city to the latest and you will know how much it has grown over the years in terms of height.

However, I still feel that Amaze is a proportional design. I dont think it is better than a Fiesta, simply because I am a fan of simple design philosophies (except may be the Elantra). Amaze has too many cuts and slants on the sides, but that doesn't cut for proportions.

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Originally Posted by kiku007 View Post
The Ikon had a fantastic rear seat. Even better than the Fiesta Classic IMHO. I'm about 6 feet, and I feel claustrophobic and cramped in the 4M Compact Sedans. I'm comfortable in proper sedans like Vento, Sunny (who wouldn't be) etc. At the same time I'm at loss for head room in Linea and the Fiesta has weirdly setup backrest angle and neck restrains. It's about packaging and not just overall length. But when you post a point like, Ikon's space can't match Xcent or Amaze, I'll have to take it with loads of salt.
When did I narrow down on Ikon? I mentioned Fiesta and Accent. Ikon had a book back seat, I remember. But that doesn't make the Honda Amaze any lesser. It has adequate space and is not cramped as a sub-4m sedan is expected to be. See for yourself below - Even if its not better than Ikon, isn't it remarkable that its similar, while being almost 150mm less in length and having same boot space?

Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!-dscn3300.jpg

Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!-hondaamazesedan25.jpg

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Originally Posted by kiku007 View Post
Surprised.
Glad that you were. Smaller cars have made the manufacturers think more over the years in terms of packing.
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Old 18th April 2015, 15:04   #94
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Default Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
Thank you.

Would appreciate a mutually respectable tone however. That was my first reply to you in the thread and the first time i mentioned 'old platform'. It was not there in the opening post. Not sure where i was harping and why I'm being a fanboy when I only presented my arguments and my knowledge.

You are welcome to disagree on it factually.
Oops, sorry if the tone of my post, wasn't respectable.

When you bring, 'Old Platform' into the discussion which factually didn't have any relevance to the current Compact sedans, it is harping.

Quote:
Sorry if i offended you. The post was on all cars of the time. Not just the Fiesta or the Ikon. And you can correct me if any of my facts are wrong.
What is there to offend? I bought and owned them;that's about it. I wasn't their creator to be offended

Quote:
You share platforms across the globe - that surely is a method of cost cutting. Agreed. But unfortunately - it doesn't work that way due to currency differences etc. The Dacia Logan which is one of the cheapest sedans out there became expensive when it reached here. The Chinese Sail went over our heads as well, as did the Etios which feels way more dated inside that a Ford Ikon as well.
Logan became expensive, because Renault Mahindra were plain stupid and not because of currency.

Quote:
I believe we wouldnt have been so passionate in our hate towards the Amaze or Xcent or Zest or Aspire (I purposefully leave out DZire, Verito Vibe) if they had been showcased without their equivalent hatchbacks alongside.
For me personally, they would still look disproportionate.

Quote:
Isn't that a Ford to Honda difference? Or Suzuki or Hyundai? I agree on the Ikon Flair. Used to drive it during college days and it was excellent.
Come on. Honda did have the brilliant VTECs.

Quote:
However, coming back to your original point on how the compact sedans 'killed performance' - as i mentioned earlier. FE requirements killed it, but let us wait till the Europeans join the hunt. What if the Polo 1.2 TSi is made available in a compact? Since Polo has it, they should be able to offer that. Or even the rumoured Suzuki turbo petrols? Performance is evolving. The old NA engines are giving way to smaller turbo petrols everywhere, not just India.
Absolutely, I'm looking forward to turbo petrol engines.

Quote:
When did I narrow down on Ikon? I mentioned Fiesta and Accent. Ikon had a book back seat, I remember. But that doesn't make the Honda Amaze any lesser. It has adequate space and is not cramped as a sub-4m sedan is expected to be. See for yourself below - Even if its not better than Ikon, isn't it remarkable that its similar, while being almost 150mm less in length and having same boot space?
You mentioned, the Ikon cannot match the Amaze in space. That again, factually incorrect IMHO and borders on fanboyism.

It's absolutely fine for you to say, "I didn't buy a compact sedan for status". You have all the rights to say it. Through this thread you want me to believe all 30000 people a month are using the same rationale? Sorry, no.

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Old 18th April 2015, 15:21   #95
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Default Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!

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Originally Posted by kiku007 View Post
It's absolutely fine for you to say, "I didn't buy a compact sedan for status". You have all the rights to say it. Through this thread you want me to believe all 30000 people a month are using the same rationale? Sorry, no.
No. When did I say - "I didn't buy a compact sedan for status"? If you see point number 4 of my parent's car - it is obvious that mom wanted a sedan and was willing to compromise- compact or not. Not status per se, but she prefers a sedan to a hatchback even if no one is there to see. It is another story that only Xcent and Ecosport were the ones to tick all requirements. Totally different story that the first choice - Ecosport was not available off the shelf, or rather, they didnt want to sell it.

The thread is only reasoning that all 30,000 people a month are not using that rationale for purchase. And there is something more in the segment too, than mere sedan status as we perceive it here. Would be more fruitful if we keep it factual then.

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Old 18th April 2015, 15:42   #96
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Right, then it's more of compromised sedan than compact sedan.
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Old 18th April 2015, 15:45   #97
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Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post

Would you agree with me that the beauty of the designs you have shared is that they are low-slung, and not the fact that they are notch-backs.
Yes you are right about the fact that now a days cars have higher ground clearance than their yesteryear's counterpart but that is also a reason why this whole CS design look disproportionate. Civic had low ground clearance yet, it sold well even on our uneven roads. I think if lowering GC for the sake of looks is necessary then someone should do it and see the market response. If the car is good enough in other aspects then atleast the urban population will gladly accept it. May be I'm talking non-sense here or the market will be too small to consider for manufacturers but you know good looks is normally my first priority while choosing a car.

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Old 18th April 2015, 15:59   #98
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There are people who find compact/compromised sedans the ideal choice. If the Figo Aspire handles like the Fiesta I would pick it up above the many boats on offer that cost north of ten lakhs. And Ford is offering 6 airbags for Aspire, can't recollect any car other than old i20 which offered 6 airbags. The argument that they look like contraptions is bit far fetched. I can't find anything wrong with Amaze and Zest, even the Aspire from the pictures available. I do agree that they don't look as beautiful as Vento or Fiesta, but not everyone can stretch their budgets.
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Old 18th April 2015, 16:22   #99
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Default Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!

Great thread.

But whether you like it or not, the Compact sedan is the new segment manufacturers have created, and safe to say that it's well accepted in India. The figures speak for themselves.

Who created this segment? The government did. They created a move tax cars under 4 m length lesser, and the manufacturers saw potential in slapping a boot onto the Hatchback.

It makes sense for all families which have one car to buy a compact sedan as the running cost is as cheap as the hatchback, gives you more space and of course it's compact.

Still, the elite i20 or Jazz is a better option anyday.

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Originally Posted by tejas08 View Post

(Still no idea how MSIL manages to sell these many Dzires despite being so ugly-looking, and practically very less boot space).
Same here.

But Maruti Brand+ Good engines makes it sell.

Surprised that Xcent hasn't been able to dent the Dzire. (Xcent has a poor diesel)
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Old 18th April 2015, 18:33   #100
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Originally Posted by sandeepmohan View Post
Even after taking out the enthusiast approach to the compact sedan, there is one thing I just cannot ignore, the looks of a car. It is one of the reasons I drive a sedan that has the least amount of space, is least practical on the inside and has poor driver ergonomics. I can live with all of it. I like a good looking car and there is no taking this away from me.
True. I can quite understand what it feels like. I do believe the everytime you park the car and walk away - If you dont feel an urge to look back at the car, its the wrong one.

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Originally Posted by sandeepmohan View Post
I cannot digest any of these compact sedans. Every one of them looks odd. I am willing to let go of every compact sedan in place of an equally not so nice to look Nissan Sunny. I'd much rather own the big, long Japanese sedan over any of these and it has nothing to do with status. The Sunny's interiors are drab compared to most of the compact sedans too. Let us say there is no Nissan Sunny or above class of car on sale, I will still stick to the hatchbacks cause they look better and I get the giant cargo area (after the seats are flipped) that no compact sedan can offer.
I did not quite get it. Why do you prefer to pay another 3L to 4L for the Sunny? When it shares the same engine options with the Micra and shares similar driving dynamics? And you agree it looks just as bad as the compact sedans too.

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Originally Posted by sandeepmohan View Post
I think it has the worst stance of all the compact sedans on sale.
Have you seen it from the rear, and noticed that it goes slightly wider from wheels to the roof? The shoulder line looks like the widest part rather than the base. Not sure if its just me.

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Originally Posted by ghodlur View Post
Great compilation CD. Hats off for the effort in collecting the details and presenting them in layman terms.

Was there a lobby by the car manufacturers to force the Indian govt to relax the tax structure for the sub 4 meters cars? Tomorrow if the govt relaxes the limit to 3.5 Metres, I don't think the car manufacturers would hesitate to pass off the standard hatchback as a EMCS (even more compact sedan).

I for one am never going to buy a CS.
Thank you. I think there was a lobby for not removing the tax concessions, citing more prices for all entry level cars. EMCS as you say is going to be a reality sooner as TATA is planning to undercut the Zest compact sedan with the Kite sedan.

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Originally Posted by vb-san View Post
Here is where I disagree on the comparisons. Sedans in its true form are desirable across the world, but not in majority of cases were a sedan and hatchback variant are sold side by side. You mentioned CLA as an example, but that's very different from the Indian context. Globally its popular even with a price premium because of its form factor and what it offers. Unlike a Swift/DZire comparison, the CLA does not look like mere boot job on the A-Class. The car looks good, its big on outside, and almost give an affordable option to those who were drooling at the likes of a CLS.
But it is also impractical with the rear seats being comparable to a B segment hatchback and has even less headroom than the A class. It is priced at 31L INR starting instead of 21L INR for the A, not only for what it offers - but what is it capable of selling it. Audi would have had to price the A3 hatch similarly had it been brought to our market.

I do agree that it is nowhere comparable to a Swift DZire. Nor am I going to. But desirability at 30L could mean very different to ones at 6L. Lot of people desire to have a booted car simply because of the form factor (Be it for looks or status) and for them - a swift DZire is one.

To qoute a fellow member from another thread (forgot which one). When a colleague of his remarked 'Did you see the new DZire with Honda Grill? Looks cool right?', he understood that is what the market wants.

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Originally Posted by vb-san View Post
In most of the international markets, the sedan variant is just an option for those who want that added practicality of a boot, and not because of it is desirable. An Audi A3 sedan does not command a premium pricing over its hatchback/sportsback variant. And for many other small cars (Mazda 2/3, Ford Fiesta, Honda Jazz/City, VW Golf/Jetta) the hatchbacks and sedans are priced the same (or in some cases the hatchbacks are more expensive) for the similar trim/engine variant. And in most cases the hatchback variants sell more than the sedan option (e.g.; Golf v/s Jetta).
This is why I like the arguments with you. I thought about your points on the Jazz / City pricing (I believe we discussed it on the Jazz thread) before writing the posts. And here you take it another step higher. Let me explain my thought process though -

What if i rephrase it as - In most of the international markets, the hatchback option is only for those who want the added practicality of NOT having a boot (The small and crowded streets of Europe for instance)? If the sedan isn't desirable as compared to a hatchback - why dont the biggies have hatchback versions? They had estate versions which are also a dying breed internationally.

Put someone in the small crowded streets of Europe and ask him to choose between the Golf and Jetta - he would choose the Golf at same price. What if there are no restrictions on space? Like the US? Jetta of course. To take another example - We would have more BHP'ians from Bangalore worried about buying a big sedan over a hatchback, rather than from a small city like Trivandrum.

Of course, this is 'my theory'. Waiting for your counter argument.

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Originally Posted by vb-san View Post
And why the comparison between a Ford Focus and an Ecosport, which is smaller in size? Even then it does make more sense and thats why a Focus or the Fiesta hatchback sell more than the Ecosport in the global markets. And in favour of the Ecosport - compact crossovers are worldwide phenomenon and not a market specific reaction like the sub-4m sedans.
Because Ecosport is priced a lot higher than the Fiesta in the UK. The reason for its failure was mostly attributed to the lack of premium feel IIRC. Not because of the form factor or the high price difference it commands due to this.

Sub 4m might be an Indian phenomenon, but smaller sedans are coming up in other countries as well. And manufacturers do small tuck-in jobs to stick to our rules. The Ka+ sedan for example has been tweaked for our market as Figo Aspire. Hyundai Xcent is being sent to SA and African markets.
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Originally Posted by vb-san View Post
On this point, if you are buying a car for yourself now, which one you will choose - an Amaze top-end diesel or a Polo GT TDI / Punto 90?
I would chose the Polo GT TDi

But because of the engine and the fun it provides. Every time I step into the Xcent from the Punto - I appreciate the quality, the refinement, the space on offer etc. But it is not fun to drive. Fail. BUT - this is because only Koreans and Japs have entered the segment now.

This question is relevant only because this is the only segment where we get hatchbacks at the price of sedans. It is similar to asking - Would you prefer a Honda City / VW Golf. Right? Unfortunately - we dont have such high end hatchbacks in India. Because even most of the enthusiasts who would blindly suggest i20 here wouldn't pay big money for a hatchback now. I can see the situation changing if the traffic continues to get worse over the next decade though.

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Originally Posted by blacksport View Post
The problem with these compact sedans is that the donor hatchbacks were never designed in a way that a boot would look good on it. And this is true not just for compact sedans.

So problem is with the donor cars. These tallboys will not look good with a boot stuck on the back and the 4m limit is just making it worse. An Xcent or a Dzire would not look any better even with a longer boot.
True. I mentioned this in an earlier post too. The problem is that the market demands more space and comfort over looks. The tall Jazz is very spacious but it had to be converted into such a long sedan to make it proportional as the City. If too much of attention is paid to the looks (FIAT Linea comes to mind) then people starts complaining of bad space utilization. If that is the case, every sedan based on a premium hatch would end up in C segment or nearby.

Give more length for the Amaze / Xcent boot, it would only ruin the proportions further by being tail happy. Zest and Aspire could use a bit more though IMO.

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Old 18th April 2015, 18:46   #101
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Default Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!

Ok my views. But before I start, let me put a disclaimer. "I have a Punto."
And if that is not enough, then one more. "It was not a heart decision, it was as much a decision from head as it was from heart." Now that it is established that normal people do not think the way I do, lets start.

Now, Will I buy any of the compact sedans?
No.

Reasons?

OK lets start one by one.

Swift Dzire. I absolutely loathe the way it looks. There is no way I can visualise myself driving one. Looks are ofcourse subjective, and thats my subjective verdict. If I want a Swift, it would be for a set of reasons, additional litres of boot doesn't feature there. I will just buy the Swift.

Amaze. For all its proportions going for it, I still dont like it. Moreover, interiors feel worse than my Punto. Boot is massive at 400 Litres, but if I need more than the 270 litres of my Punto, that would still not make me look beyond the obvious dislikes I have with Amaze.

Zest. This is the one I like most among the compacts. But somehow, I feel that if I am cajoled to buy a Tata vehicle other than Safari, it would still not be Zest. Something does not feel right. I dont know what, but although I liked the car, when I came out of the showroom I felt underwhelmed.

Xcent. Hmm this is another strong contender. However if I am to buy xcent for 7.xx big ones, I would rather put some more and get the i20.

Well thats me.
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Old 18th April 2015, 19:03   #102
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Default Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post

Our Xcent SX(o) AT ticket all 10 /10 of our requirements for replacing the car for parents.

1. Had to be an automatic transmission.
2. Should be a newer model in the market.
3. Should feel like an upgrade from our old WagonR VXi.
4. Wait, not just an upgrade, but a sedan this time - Mom only had this one requirement.
5. Sedan? But it should be a small car with a good turning radius, otherwise U_turn into our garage could becoming a tricky affair on a daily basis - Father's only requirement.
6. Reversing sensor / Camera - This U_turn into our garage is going to be a very tight one, and any electronic assistance would be great.
7. ABS and airbags.
8. Quality & Feel good factor - Wife only had this one requirement!
9. Good looks - And I had this one additional requirement over and above the feel good factor.
10 Good service network.
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Originally Posted by Geo_Ipe View Post
CrAzY dRiVeR has praised the Xcent and Amaze for the rear legroom they offer. Is there really more legroom available for the Xcent/Amaze over the i10 Grand/Brio?? Do we have any objective data here?

Objectively looking at your requirements, other than point 4, there is nothing the i10 Grand can't do which the Xcent does.
Not sure if Airbags and ABS are available as options on the Grand AT Asta - the brochure is not that clear on that.
So it looks like you had to choose the Xcent over the i10 Grand since Automatic transmission was a requisite. But then how many consumers buy an AT in India?? Even in the current scenario, I would guess < 5%.

So still, your points aren't convincing enough to the rest 90+% consumers who go for the MT, to go for the CS over the hatchback.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post

Unfortunately no. Both i20 and Grand i20 skip on good automatic options. Covered in the main page itself. Manufacturers give preference to CS because they obviously get more profits. I dont see any other reason why DZire gets automatic while Swift does not. Also - see the attitude shown by Honda against the Brio.
And looks like no one has answered the question I had put forth in the last post (quoted in Bold)! Do we have some data to substantiate?
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Old 18th April 2015, 19:25   #103
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Default Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!

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Originally Posted by Geo_Ipe View Post
So it looks like you had to choose the Xcent over the i10 Grand since Automatic transmission was a requisite. But then how many consumers buy an AT in India?? Even in the current scenario, I would guess < 5%.

So still, your points aren't convincing enough to the rest 90+% consumers who go for the MT, to go for the CS over the hatchback.
Correction - I had to choose the Xcent over the Elite i20 since the automatic transmissions was a requisite. Grand i10 did not qualify because it did not feel like an upgrade compared to WagonR for parents. Even if you look at the car from outside, Grand i10 is only one quarter of a size larget than WagonR. Elite i20 was perfect though. Even Ford Ecosport.

Between - I wasn't trying to convince anyone to go for CS over a hatchback!
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Originally Posted by Geo_Ipe View Post
And looks like no one has answered the question I had put forth in the last post (quoted in Bold)! Do we have some data to substantiate?
Qouting from Amaze review -

"The Amaze's wheelbase is longer than the Brio's by 60 mm, and it does appear that the entire 60 mm has gone to the rear."

And no - Xcent and DZire and Zest has the same wheelbase as their hatchback siblings.
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Old 18th April 2015, 22:05   #104
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Default Re: Compact Sedans - 15 reasons why you probably shouldn't listen to the enthusiast!

A beautiful write up. Now, my views on Compact Sedans.

1. Am I a fan of Compact Sedans?
No

2. Why NOT?
Coz, they charge too much of a premium (how much ever it is) for just a boot.

3. Will I ever buy a Compact Sedan?
May be - the ONLY choice I'll make in CS is Zest!!

4. Why Zest and not anything else?
It's a great car inside out. And substantial difference (engine taking the max weightage and additional equipment adding bonus points) with it's hatchback sibling which makes me believe the premium is justified.

5.Does Zest look great?
Average looks! If you see the boot + C-pillay in isolation, that's one of the worst designs you have seen.

6. What's good about the CS then?
Extra boot space. That helps when the car has 4 people on board.
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Originally Posted by DCEite View Post
Enough of this BS about status symbol/ego/being arrived etc etc.
...
harry thinks that I am image and status conscious or have a big ego, its *his* problem and not mine....
Not sure why are you getting so worked up. For every 1 person who votes for practicality, 5 others vote for the status. I have seen a different trend in metros (where premium hatchbacks are preferred) understandably for the size / parking constraints.

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Originally Posted by kiku007 View Post
Ten years down the line, how will India's two decades of Automotive History look like? A sea of disproportionate 4M contraptions (Minimum of 2 from every Mass Manufacturer). What a pleasant history...
Beauty (or bane) of demand Vs supply mechanism. When people queue for such products, more and more manufactures adopt it coz, that's what bring money to the table.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
...However, my point was only to say that the segment is not 'cramped' as people claim. The interior space in Xcent / Zest / Amaze is more than what is available in Verna / Linea which are termed acceptable, but we claim CS segment is cramped. Lol. Because its a CS....
The same way, isn't Grand i10 / Bolt / Brio spacious than Verna / Linea? I am pretty sure of this. None of these cars as I understand don't get any "extra" space in the compact sedan form over the hatchbacks.
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Old 18th April 2015, 23:59   #105
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I think the choice between a CS and an equivalent hatchback depends more upon the buyer and his requirements.

Take the example of the Swift and the Dzire. For approximately 70 k more you get better interiors (Indians love beige), slightly more leg space, much more boot space and a slightly better ride quality. But you do lose out on sharp handling and of course looks.

Similarly, compare the Zest and Bolt and you'll realise that the former offers a better deal.

For someone who wants a sedan, compacts do almost everything (except for space) better than full size sedans like the Etios and Sail.

So in the end it all boils down to what you want from your car. If you want the extra space and can do with the looks, a CS is for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swiftnfurious View Post
A beautiful write up. Now, my views on Compact Sedans.


The same way, isn't Grand i10 / Bolt / Brio spacious than Verna / Linea? I am pretty sure of this. None of these cars as I understand don't get any "extra" space in the compact sedan form over the hatchbacks.
The Amaze has an extended wheelbase as compared to the Brio and therefore much more space.
The Zest and Bolt have almost equal leg space, but the Zest has a bigger boot. The Bolt's boot is considered small even by hatchback standards.

Last edited by moralfibre : 19th April 2015 at 08:20. Reason: Back to back posts
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