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Old 20th June 2015, 00:47   #31
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When I moved on from my Swift VDi to Zest Revotron XT, I had lot of confusion on whether to opt petrol or go again for the national diesel engine.
However, the 1.2L turbo charged petrol engine from Tata Motors proved good enough for me. Also, a premium of 1.4 lacs for diesel didn't make financial sense to me.
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Old 20th June 2015, 07:48   #32
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Default Re: Diesel Cars: Down, down, down! Market share = 34%

This trend might change again. Last year and a half have been very promising in terms of fuel prices. But now that the hikes have started coming back, people might soon lower down their threshold for opting for a diesel car. The latest skewed hike in favor of diesel will only strengthen that sentiment further.
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Old 20th June 2015, 10:58   #33
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Default Diesel Cars: Down, down, down! Market share = 34%

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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
Only the volume guys can make money like this. Even if FIAT dropped pricing by 30K, it would not matter much as the Fiat issue was not the price of cars.
Volume guys are selling at lot of cars at a high price, so no sense to cut pricing.

For example, lets take the fortuner. Toyota makes a huge margin, and sells as many cars as it produces. A much lower pricing will still rake in a healthy profit, and increase the waiting list. Overall profit will decrease.

So if I am a manufacturer capable of producing X number of cars, I would like to price such that demand is closest to X. Even if demand if 5X, due to lower pricing, it would not benefit me. It makes more sense to price it higher to get a demand of X.

This topic and the figures quoted are arguable. Even in markets where there is a price parity between diesel and petrol, the price differential between petrol engine and diesel vehicles of the same spec are always high.

We commissioned a study a few years back (working with an OEM) and we realised that for hatch backs (sub C segment) the differential is about $1500, going upto $2000 for C segment vehicles and roughly $2500 for larger engined vehicles like SUVs.

So, I doubt that the cost difference is just 30-40k.

Also, with tighter emission norms, the extra components that go into a Diesel engine like a DPF (particulate filter) / Urea treatment add considerable cost. These costs are greatly avoided for a petrol engine.

My 2 cents.
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Old 20th June 2015, 13:16   #34
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Default Re: Diesel Cars: Down, down, down! Market share = 34%

Like someone said, the shift to petrol is in the volume or hatch & C segment. Beyond that, diesel still rules. What we should focus on is petrol v/s diesel comparison in D segment & above.

Ironically, the more expensive the car the more buyer's tilt towards diesel. Isn't that why some cars are only available in diesel like the BMW 3 & 5 series for example? What is the break up between Skoda Octavia & VW Jetta petrol v diesel? In fact, both these cars have very competent TSi petrol motors, so it would be very interesting to see the petrol v/s diesel break up pre & post diesel de-regualtion.

Also, MUV's & SUV's are only available in diesel. I think apart from Ertiga, Ecosport & Mobilo many MUV's & SUV's are only available in diesel like Lodgy, Duster & even XUV 500. Do MUV private owner's really do that many kms that they prefer diesels?
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Old 20th June 2015, 15:27   #35
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Default Re: Diesel Cars: Down, down, down! Market share = 34%

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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
... manufacturers sold Diesel cars at a much higher price than the actual price difference. So you had a 1-1.5L difference between pricing...
Now, with reduced price difference, between petrol and diesel, paying 1.5L does not make much sense...
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnabchak View Post
... There is no doubt that the diesel will continue to offer better mileage but on a rough calculation, the 1 lac+ differential takes close to 70K kms to break even or translates to an approx. 1800 kms per month.
How many of us normally drive that much to justify a 3 year break even period?...
Many buyers in segments upto 8-10L take car loans. So, the math becomes more skewed in favour of Petrol engines if we throw in the extra interest paid on extra 1-1.5L for a diesel.

I considered this interest differential in calculation and it made my decision easier in favour of petrol version.
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Old 20th June 2015, 18:50   #36
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Default Re: Diesel Cars: Down, down, down! Market share = 34%

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Originally Posted by amit View Post
Like someone said, the shift to petrol is in the volume or hatch & C segment. Beyond that, diesel still rules. What we should focus on is petrol v/s diesel comparison in D segment & above.
D segment and above it should still be heavily skewed in favour of diesel. Where are petrol options in these segments?!

I think in the lower segments, continuous price hikes, insurance rate hikes and road tax rate hikes have pushed the OTR of diesel cars beyond budget of many buyers. The only option left is to 'settle' for the petrol variant as it involves lower capital outlay in the beginning at least.

THis trend has created a thinking that diesel is the one to go for if you have the moolah and the petrol model is the poor cousin. So the moment someone enters the higher segment he does not even consider the petrol option. "If you can afford the diesel model, why buy the petrol model?" I was asked this question many times when I told people that my Skoda Laura runs on petrol .
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Old 21st June 2015, 10:48   #37
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Default Re: Diesel Cars: Down, down, down! Market share = 34%

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Originally Posted by Santoshbhat View Post
D segment and above it should still be heavily skewed in favour of diesel. Where are petrol options in these segments?!
So the moment someone enters the higher segment he does not even consider the petrol option. "If you can afford the diesel model, why buy the petrol model?" I was asked this question many times when I told people that my Skoda Laura runs on petrol .
Is the the only reason for diesel's dominating in D segment & above? I am asking this because cars in this segment have very good petrol engines - VW group have TSi motors. In fact, even BMW had to withdraw the fantastic 328 because of lack of demand. The logical way would be people who can afford a 50L rupee car wouldn't mind paying for petrol if the performance is fantastic. But that hasn't happened. Why are people swinging towards diesel in segments where they can afford to pay for petrol, specially now when the price differential is so low between the two fuels? If hatch buyer's are swinging back towards petrol due to lower price differential then why aren't 3,5,C,E class buyers enquiring about petrols?
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Old 21st June 2015, 11:29   #38
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Default Re: Diesel Cars: Down, down, down! Market share = 34%

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Originally Posted by i74js View Post

The reason cannot be price alone, those who want Petrol will go for petrol and those with considerable driving and have a habit of driving cars with higher torque at low RPM will stick to Diesel, the NGT kind of ruling may tilt decisions in cities where it is enforced.
True. Even though my usage do not justify a diesel, I went for diesel because I was more comfortable and emotionally attached to a diesel mill. I knew I was paying more and was sure that I will never break even, but still went ahead and brought it because I always loved the diesel engine characteristics.

--Anoop
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Old 21st June 2015, 11:30   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amit View Post
cars in this segment have very good petrol engines - VW group have TSi motors. In fact, even BMW had to withdraw the fantastic 328 because of lack of demand. Why are people swinging towards diesel in segments where they can afford to pay for petrol, specially now when the price differential is so low between the two fuels? If hatch buyer's are swinging back towards petrol due to lower price differential then why aren't 3,5,C,E class buyers enquiring about petrols?

I think it's a function of several factors. 1) Most buyers in this segment are chauffeur driven and care for comfort, brand value and economics - not for driving pleasure. Even on our forum, lots of the people who like driving these cars are kids driving cars whose primary user is their parent. 2) Mileage in petrol cars in this segment is really poor. My Superb 1.8 TSi gives under 7 kmpl. The diesel advantage of better mileage and lower fuel cost makes a bigger difference here. 3) Barring the Superb and the Octavia, diesels are not costlier than patrols in this segment. BMW sold the 520 D and 520i for exactly the same price, and did not offer a 320i. The 328i cost more than a 520D, and was available only on custom order after the initial launch as a halo product. Only Mercedes offer the E200 and C200 for less than the equivalent diesel model (E220 CDI and C220 CDI) and you do see a decent chunk of petrol Mercs, at least in Bombay.
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Old 21st June 2015, 13:49   #40
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Default Re: Diesel Cars: Down, down, down! Market share = 34%

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Originally Posted by theexperthand View Post
True. Even though my usage do not justify a diesel, I went for diesel because I was more comfortable and emotionally attached to a diesel mill. I knew I was paying more and was sure that I will never break even, but still went ahead and brought it
Very well stated. I have similar thoughts but slightly more from the view point of frequent gas station visits and spending more during each gas station visit (compared to diesel counterparts).

My thoughts below are for cars in the 7 to 10L+- range only. For higher range cars / SUVs / MUVs etc, the choice is clearly diesel today.

Today, while filling gas saw that the difference between petrol (Rs.75+) & diesel (Rs.56+) is around Rs. 18+-.

We have seen this price differential for a while now even after de-regulations in India, on both fuels. Generally if you look at the broad trend over past months / years since deregulations, petrol users have been consistently hit more each time, including the most recent hike.

The only consolation to petrol users, like many of us is, when for a few week / months (temporarily) the difference between the 2 fuels come down to as low as Rs. 12+ to Rs. 14+-. It is merely a feel good factor for a short time. And then again the difference increases and stays that way for a much longer duration.

It is my view (just my personal opinion), in India this disparity (between petrol & diesel prices) is there to stay for many more years. One can do all the math of petrol v/s diesel car ownership (I too did this exercise in detail and went in for a petrol option) and feel good. But each time a petrol vehicle owner like me goes to a gas station and has to make 'more frequent trips' (lesser mileage) and 'pay more', keeps one thinking.

Then the question is, for someone with a 10L+- budget, would it better to go for a smaller diesel option (e.g. Amaze, Dzire, Etios etc.) versus bigger C2 class petrol cars, as petrol users are going to continue to take bigger hits even after deregulation. I think about it at times. Not a fair comparison accross classes, I agree, but none the less, practically speaking it does meet the budget requirements (10L limit in this case) and the long term 'feel good' factor that comes along each time one visits a gas station to do a tankful.
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Old 22nd June 2015, 07:52   #41
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Default Re: Diesel Cars: Down, down, down! Market share = 34%

Reasons for the Skew in favor of petrol.

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Implication - drop in diesel vehicles manufacturer wise

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Speculated to spin off a demand for Diesel vehicles are the upcoming Crossovers/SUV's shortly.

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Source:http://auto.economictimes.indiatimes...order/47763405

Last edited by volkman10 : 22nd June 2015 at 07:54.
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Old 22nd June 2015, 12:08   #42
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Default Re: Diesel Cars: Down, down, down! Market share = 34%

Quote:
Originally Posted by amit View Post
Is the the only reason for diesel's dominating in D segment & above? I am asking this because cars in this segment have very good petrol engines - VW group have TSi motors. In fact, even BMW had to withdraw the fantastic 328 because of lack of demand. The logical way would be people who can afford a 50L rupee car wouldn't mind paying for petrol if the performance is fantastic. But that hasn't happened. Why are people swinging towards diesel in segments where they can afford to pay for petrol, specially now when the price differential is so low between the two fuels? If hatch buyer's are swinging back towards petrol due to lower price differential then why aren't 3,5,C,E class buyers enquiring about petrols?
The petrol engines honestly aren't a patch on the diesel counterparts when you compare like for like, say a 320i with a 320d, the fuel efficiency will repay itself. The biggest cost in ownership is depreciation, whatever lower maintenance you pay for a petrol, the used car prices will be lower if you are lucky enough to get a buyer for a petrol car that has a competent diesel variant. The 328i was CBU and hence quite exclusive because only a very limited number made it to India, I haven't seen a petrol version of the 3 in Bangalore so far.

The buyers of German luxury cars are rarely the type who will waste their money on petrol engines that have nearly 100% higher fuel costs. They put up with the diesel clatter knowing fully well that running cost and TCO are in check. The hatchback owners buying petrol cars represent the lowest rung in terms of purchasing power, the reason they buy petrol cars is that a diesel would be out of budget by nearly 60%. The small hatch usually spends the weekdays in the parking lot and weekends in town, a couple of long trips a year and the running justifies only a petrol.

A friend got 12kmpl driving from Kerala to Bangalore, a distance of nearly 650kms in around 8 hours, can't discuss the speeds in question but the road wasn't a dual carriageway in 2012. He landed here with enough fuel to run about for a day in town, car in question was a 520d(F10), a petrol equivalent would have meant a refuelling halt, without any real performance benefit.
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Old 22nd June 2015, 13:57   #43
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Default Re: Diesel Cars: Down, down, down! Market share = 34%

I see this downward trend in a rather positive way. Not because I'm owning a petrol car, but due to the nature of pollution levels in Diesel engines. Once, the particulate matter filter comes into effect, the scenario changes. But still there would be a lot older Diesel engines which could cause damage to the environment. Having said that, Petrol engines do pollute as well but the harmful effects are of a lesser nature. The higher price of Petrol is only due to the higher taxes and excise duty despite the fact that the production cost of Petrol is lower than Diesel which does not make sense at all from a common man's view but matters a lot from the business point of view. Gradually petrol engines should also be replaced with some other alternative which does not harm environment.

There is no doubt that Diesel engines are having a better FE but it all depends on the driving style. A good driving style can earn an FE from 11 - 13.5 in City and up to 20 in highway driving conditions. The Diesel City at the same time would be from 14 to 18 in City and up to 24 in highways. The petrol engine I'm talking about is my Honda City CVT and the Diesel engine of my relative's City Diesel. Both under Kerala city and highway road conditions. Yearly service costs difference is about 12000 rupees more for the Diesel City (1st year of ownership of both cars).

The government is increasing pollution levels by increased prices of Petrol which has lesser FE and lesser pollution and lesser prices of Diesel which has high FE and high pollution. Despite this, the Diesel cars sales getting lower is a positive trend on human and other living beings health.

What I am going to say now may be treated with anger from Diesel car owners. I strongly feel that it is time government should provide subsidized rates for Diesel only for essential services like trains, power plants, trucks for goods transportation etc and at the same time ensuring all the emission levels are the latest. Diesel and petrol prices should be as of actual production costs with tax percentage same for both of them.

This is definitely not going to happen, but then it is left to God only for the well being of the living species in this planet.

Probably, I typed something like a preacher but I also pollute by driving too much . But isn't it something we should seriously think on?
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Old 22nd June 2015, 14:09   #44
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Default Re: Diesel Cars: Down, down, down! Market share = 34%

I think, if one can afford, it is better to go for petrol diesel mix. I mean have a small petrol hatch or sedan and get a diesel SUV beast. When petrol prices crash (if that happens again ) use petrol hatch/sedan, other times, use diesel SUV. Although there are diesel hatches and sedans, too, but since SUV cannot be had in petrol (barring soft-roaders like CRV ) , I think free-revving petrol car is better option. Petrol-diesel mix also lets you better appreciate intricacies of altogether different kinds of engines. One is torquey but not free-revving, the other revs crazily to redline but is slow off the mark owing to lesser torque at idle.
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Old 22nd June 2015, 15:28   #45
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Default Re: Diesel Cars: Down, down, down! Market share = 34%

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Originally Posted by adarsh76 View Post
The government is increasing pollution levels by increased prices of Petrol..

What I am going to say now may be treated with anger from Diesel car owners. I strongly feel that it is time government should provide subsidized rates for Diesel only for essential services like trains, power plants, trucks for goods transportation etc..

Probably, I typed something like a preacher but I also pollute by driving too much .
What I remember is that Delhi was immensely polluted during the days of diesel buses. CNG changed the completely and Delhi suddenly became greener and cleaner during 2000s.

After dieselization, the sky is blacker than ever. I prefer CNG/Petrol for personal vehicles. Contrary to popular opinion, I don't think current diesel engines' future is bright. Sooner or later, govt will step in. EV subsidies, hybrids, CNG. Some cost effective solution is required.

Rationing of diesel will only increase corruption and blackmarketing.
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