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Old 10th August 2015, 09:47   #16
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Default re: Maruti Ciaz SHVS with Integrated Starter Generator & idling start / stop system. EDIT: Now Launched!

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Originally Posted by Rahulkool View Post
The above report from the website gaadiwaadi clearly say that the motor assists the engine during acceleration and charges the battery during coasting. Also for just start/stop system they will not need battery which is 3 times size. All depends upon the how much truth in the report.
A battery 3 times the size will probably not even fit in the engine bay. Secondly, if motor assists the engine, you need a very complex device known as a PSD or power split device. The entire transmission needs to be changed. It's impossible for a manual transmission to handle this type of power delivery.

I'm quite confident that the Gaadiwaadi article is incorrect. When people say brake energy recuperation, the first thing that comes to mind is the Hybrid Toyota Prius system which uses kinetic energy from the brakes to generate power and charge the batteries.

This is not the same as what the XUV500 or the BMW's efficient dynamics system does.

I'm pretty sure the description I mentioned earlier is what will be present in the Ciaz.

If it's a true hybrid as the article claims, I will be truly shocked and people will be shocked at the pricing which will probably be above the Jetta even.
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Old 10th August 2015, 10:05   #17
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Default re: Maruti Ciaz SHVS with Integrated Starter Generator & idling start / stop system. EDIT: Now Launched!

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Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
A battery 3 times the size will probably not even fit in the engine bay. Secondly, if motor assists the engine, you need a very complex device known as a PSD or power split device. The entire transmission needs to be changed. It's impossible for a manual transmission to handle this type of power delivery.

I'm quite confident that the Gaadiwaadi article is incorrect. When people say brake energy recuperation, the first thing that comes to mind is the Hybrid Toyota Prius system which uses kinetic energy from the brakes to generate power and charge the batteries.

This is not the same as what the XUV500 or the BMW's efficient dynamics system does.

I'm pretty sure the description I mentioned earlier is what will be present in the Ciaz.

If it's a true hybrid as the article claims, I will be truly shocked and people will be shocked at the pricing which will probably be above the Jetta even.

It doesn't seem to be an inline motor along with the transmission like the Prius. This is clear as they never speak of the electric motor operating independently with the engine being off.

So it probably sends the torque through an uprated auxiliary belt. Ie the alternator belt. It also states that the starter motor is used for first start and not for start stop, so maybe an independent starter motor and an oversized generator motor which runs through the aux belt. This doesn't need a PSD. Just a very good motor controller linked to the ECU.

3 times the regular battery is only 180 ah, so not very large. Should easily fit in the boot.

Quick Google gives me 20kg per 60ah for a lead acid, so 60kg battery. Seems like a very clever design.

The belt isn't a rigid coupling so no torsional vibrations are transfered between engine and motor, which am sure makes a very big difference to the engineering cost of the whole setup.
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Old 10th August 2015, 10:15   #18
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Default re: Maruti Ciaz SHVS with Integrated Starter Generator & idling start / stop system. EDIT: Now Launched!

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Originally Posted by Diesel_convert View Post
It doesn't seem to be an inline motor along with the transmission like the Prius. This is clear as they never speak of the electric motor operating independently with the engine being off.

So it probably sends the torque through an uprated auxiliary belt. Ie the alternator belt. It also states that the starter motor is used for first start and not for start stop, so maybe an independent starter motor and an oversized generator motor which runs through the aux belt. This doesn't need a PSD. Just a very good motor controller linked to the ECU.
Ok so what you are describing is exactly the same as the Honda Civic Hybrid which Honda terms Integrated Motor Assist.

This is a mild parallel hybrid system that uses a larger starter generator motor.

The only difference is that the Civic has regenerative braking which the Ciaz will probably not get.
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Old 10th August 2015, 10:26   #19
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Smile re: Maruti Ciaz SHVS with Integrated Starter Generator & idling start / stop system. EDIT: Now Launched!

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Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
Ok so what you are describing is exactly the same as the Honda Civic Hybrid which Honda terms Integrated Motor Assist.

This is a mild parallel hybrid system that uses a larger starter generator motor.

The only difference is that the Civic has regenerative braking which the Ciaz will probably not get.
You are right, it wont have regenerative braking like a e20, where the motor generator is never disconnected from the wheels.

It will definitely have regenerative engine braking, else it wont be more efficient than just an engine.

What would be interesting in is in gear acceleration thanks to all that instant torque, it should be able embarrass some larger sedans for sure.

Edit : looked up IMA, its similar but not the same, mounting the motor at the end of the crankshaft before the clutch involves a lot more engineering than just using a belt and larger alternator. Also the Honda version had the option of shutting off cylinders through VTEC and running on motor alone which is again a lot more complex than this setup.

Last edited by Diesel_convert : 10th August 2015 at 10:33. Reason: added details
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Old 10th August 2015, 10:53   #20
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Default re: Maruti Ciaz SHVS with Integrated Starter Generator & idling start / stop system. EDIT: Now Launched!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel_convert View Post
It doesn't seem to be an inline motor along with the transmission like the Prius. This is clear as they never speak of the electric motor operating independently with the engine being off.

So it probably sends the torque through an uprated auxiliary belt. Ie the alternator belt. It also states that the starter motor is used for first start and not for start stop, so maybe an independent starter motor and an oversized generator motor which runs through the aux belt. This doesn't need a PSD. Just a very good motor controller linked to the ECU.
ISG is meant to replace the starter and alternator/generator as the name Integrated Starter Generator suggests. The video from Suzuki for example shows how various components will glue together. If you think of it engine can be moved without firing it and thats the purpose of the starter motor and with ISG it can do both torque assist as well as start functioning with that additional belt driving the engine from the ISG.

It is a very cost-effective and intelligent move by Suzuki given the compactness of the whole system and the benefits surrounding it. Also, Suzuki terms this as the mild hybrid and other hybrid technologies like series hybrid(BMW i3) and parellal hybrid(Prius style) might also come very soon to our beloved swift. And if the rumors are to be believed it might get an option to choose from any of the three modes that is 1. Pure EV 2. Series Hybrid 3. Parallel Hybrid. Knowing Suzuki it might bring all the hybrid technologies to mass market without hesitating like other manufacturers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
Ok so what you are describing is exactly the same as the Honda Civic Hybrid which Honda terms Integrated Motor Assist.

This is a mild parallel hybrid system that uses a larger starter generator motor.

The only difference is that the Civic has regenerative braking which the Ciaz will probably not get.
Any idea why?
I thought regenerative braking means braking energy is absorbed by the alternator(by increasing the alternator opposition) to convert that in to electricity and charge the batteries. So what prevents Ciaz from getting it? Doing regen braking massively improves braking power too.

Last edited by WRXXX : 10th August 2015 at 10:55.
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Old 10th August 2015, 11:03   #21
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Default re: Maruti Ciaz SHVS with Integrated Starter Generator & idling start / stop system. EDIT: Now Launched!

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Originally Posted by WRXXX View Post
Any idea why?
I thought regenerative braking means braking energy is absorbed by the alternator(by increasing the alternator opposition) to convert that in to electricity and charge the batteries. So what prevents Ciaz from getting it? Doing regen braking massively improves braking power too.
Simplest answer is because the first post with the brochure doesn't mention it. If they had regenerative braking it would be highlighted big time.

Secondly, cost. As I mentioned the system is not cheap. Regenerative braking will really inflate the cost.
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Old 10th August 2015, 11:13   #22
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Default re: Maruti Ciaz SHVS with Integrated Starter Generator & idling start / stop system. EDIT: Now Launched!

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Originally Posted by rockporiom View Post
What about the petrol ciaz will it be seeing any changes too? Will the start stop system make its way to the ciaz petrol? Or are they planning to stop the petrol ciaz since there is no mention of the petrol anywhere.
Seems like they will sell the mild hybrid and Sport (DDiS320?) in NEXA only, and so, a higher price tag is expected. A Petrol with such a higher tag won't sell. So, might have decided to go with the Diesel.
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Old 10th August 2015, 11:59   #23
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Default re: Maruti Ciaz SHVS with Integrated Starter Generator & idling start / stop system. EDIT: Now Launched!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
Simplest answer is because the first post with the brochure doesn't mention it. If they had regenerative braking it would be highlighted big time.

Secondly, cost. As I mentioned the system is not cheap. Regenerative braking will really inflate the cost.
My electric scooter costing 32k has regenerative braking and it works much better than most of the mechanical brakes. IMHO that shouldn't be too expensive. All that is required from electrical point of view is flip the connections of the motor so that it becomes a generator(and generators appose any movement big time and resulting in electricity) and that is already present in ISG and now the logic has to be linked to components like brakes and throttle(electronic as in Ciaz). May be our understanding of regenerative braking differs from each other?

However I agree with your observation though, but then it could be because Ciaz Hybrid doesn't need that point highlighted given that it is not going to be an EV or an RE variety. Its mostly a diesel/petrol car mated with electric motor for low rpm efficiency more like what VW did with the TSI to improve the low end mechanically Suzuki has done it electrically. OR we have not yet seen the full official brochure?
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Old 10th August 2015, 12:23   #24
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Default re: Maruti Ciaz SHVS with Integrated Starter Generator & idling start / stop system. EDIT: Now Launched!

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Originally Posted by WRXXX View Post
It is not a full hybrid alright Suzuki never advertised SHVS that way
Correct. Suzuki is too small a company (globally) to develop its own hybrid. One of the main reasons they had a tie-up with VW was for tech (hybrids, direct injection petrols etc.). With the VW deal gone messy though, I believe Suzuki is now developing hybrid tech (though on a much smaller scale than the biggies).

Quote:
From what I know the improved efficeincy comes from the ISG working as a motor to torque assist the engine and hence cover up for low speed inefficiency of IC engines.
Honestly, I think it's similar - but not identical - to BMW's smart alternator system. If it disengages when the battery is charged / while accelerating, that'll result in a minor power & efficiency improvement.

Denso's ISG explanation
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Old 10th August 2015, 12:28   #25
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Default re: Maruti Ciaz SHVS with Integrated Starter Generator & idling start / stop system. EDIT: Now Launched!

First, one has to appreciate Maruti Suzuki for "democratising" different technologies by introducing them in their mass-market cars, like AMTs and now this SVHS. It doesn't have to be complicated, cutting edge stuff like full hybrids which would increase the cost tremendously and hence be unsuitable in sub-1 million rupee cars.

Second, I think this is certainly NOT going to be a misleading piece of marketing like what one company did with their "micro-hybrid" label, which turned out to be nothing more than mere start-stop technology.

Third, I guess this is going to be somewhat similar to Nissan's S-Hybrid system that is used on their Serena (and possibly some other products). Let's take a look at how Nissan's S-Hybrid system functions:

Quote:
The S-HYBRID (which stands for "smart" and "simple" hybrid) powertrain equipped in the Serena is a simple and compact hybrid system. It mounts an upgraded version of the ECO motor used in the existing Serena, and serves as an auxiliary motor to increase power output and power generation capabilities. The hybrid system also adds a sub battery for increased storage capacity, which fits in the current engine compartment. Mounting the entire hybrid system inside the existing engine space maintains the key features of the Serena, such as largest-in-class cabin and flexible seat configurations.
Source: http://www.nissan-global.com/EN/NEWS...0801-01-e.html

Quote:
The Serena S-Hybrid is powered by a MR20DD 2.0 litre engine with 147 PS and 210 Nm (figures are from engine alone, excluding 54 Nm from electric motor). This direct injection twin-CVTC unit is paired to Nissan’s latest Xtronic CVT gearbox with Adaptive Shift Control.

An Idling Stop System shuts down the engine when idle, and restarts in just 0.3 seconds after the brake is released. There’s a timer that shows the driver how long idle stop is in use.

The S in S-Hybrid stands for “smart” and this Serena is actually a “micro-hybrid” of sorts. What Nissan did was beef up the ECO Motor, the Serena’s starter motor that controls Idling Stop and functions as an alternator during deceleration.

The starter motor uses a belt pulley type cranking system instead of a normal gear type unit. Even the regular Serena has this, but in the Serena S-Hybrid, the capacity of this motor is increased from 1.0kW/150A to 1.8kW/200A, and the engine bay has an extra 12V-27V-Ah battery. The main 12V-64V-Ah battery drives the motor, while the sub battery powers electrical components like the radio, wipers, etc.

With it, the engine also does not need to move the car AND power the car’s electrical needs at the same time, resulting in fuel savings. Fuel economy is listed as best in class – 15.2 km/l in Japan’s JC08 test cycle. However it’s important to note the ECO-motor does actually contribute to acceleration – this is not a motor assist system like Honda’s IMA.
Source: http://paultan.org/2013/07/23/nissan...d-in-malaysia/

Fourth and finally, the leaked material indicates the Ciaz is going to get a driver airbag as a standard feature. This is very welcome indeed!

Last edited by RSR : 10th August 2015 at 12:36.
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Old 10th August 2015, 12:28   #26
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Default re: Maruti Ciaz SHVS with Integrated Starter Generator & idling start / stop system. EDIT: Now Launched!

Ciaz Hybrid - SHVS reaches dealerships - launching soon. Normal Diesel Variants to be discontinued?


Maruti Ciaz SHVS with Integrated Starter Generator & idling start / stop system. EDIT: Now launched!-marutisuzukishvshybridciazindialaunche1439186123585.jpg
Maruti Ciaz SHVS with Integrated Starter Generator & idling start / stop system. EDIT: Now launched!-marutisuzukishvsciazhybridprice.jpg
Maruti Ciaz SHVS with Integrated Starter Generator & idling start / stop system. EDIT: Now launched!-marutisuzukishvshybriddieselciaz.jpg


http://gaadiwaadi.com/maruti-ciaz-sh...g-soon-501116/

Last edited by volkman10 : 10th August 2015 at 12:36.
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Old 10th August 2015, 13:10   #27
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Default re: Maruti Ciaz SHVS with Integrated Starter Generator & idling start / stop system. EDIT: Now Launched!

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Originally Posted by volkman10 View Post
Ciaz Hybrid - SHVS reaches dealerships - launching soon. Normal Diesel Variants to be discontinued?


On a time when Ciaz sales goes down, they are discontinuing normal Diesel variants? May be they are trying to position Ciaz more premium than SCross. Also, they may be trying to create space for YBA and YRA.
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Old 10th August 2015, 13:28   #28
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Default re: Maruti Ciaz SHVS with Integrated Starter Generator & idling start / stop system. EDIT: Now Launched!

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Correct. Suzuki is too small a company (globally) to develop its own hybrid. One of the main reasons they had a tie-up with VW was for tech (hybrids, direct injection petrols etc.). With the VW deal gone messy though, I believe Suzuki is now developing hybrid tech (though on a much smaller scale than the biggies).
I agree, but Suzuki in India is currently at the forefront of democratizing these technologies to public. Including Government of India relied on MS to deliver them hybrid swifts to evaluate and formulate FAME india scheme. It is already the case that MS is bigger than Suzuki itself in profits, we can't underestimate what it is capable of. To develop true hybrids/EVs one needs true engineering talent and willingness more than sheer money which most of the auto manufacturer's already have. It is always the willingness lacking.

Now these links don't lie about the genuine intentions of Suzuki, but I agree about the lack of sheer muscle power like Toyota or Honda to do this. But neverthless its a great show from this auto company in India for sure. With most of the patents from Tesla already available to public to use it shouldn't be too hard either for xyz company to crop-up, it must be the commitment from Indian government that must have delayed their offerings in this segment.

http://autoweek.com/article/nhra/tok...-cell-concepts

http://indianautosblog.com/2010/12/c...ble-hybrid-car

http://auto.ndtv.com/news/maruti-swi...8-2kmpl-743658

http://www.hindustantimes.com/htauto...1-1359943.aspx


Wanted to mention the above mainly to highlight the hybrid effort was always there for Suzuki, but must have some how not favored expensive and difficult to maintain technologies.

Last edited by WRXXX : 10th August 2015 at 13:34.
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Old 10th August 2015, 14:46   #29
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Default re: Maruti Ciaz SHVS with Integrated Starter Generator & idling start / stop system. EDIT: Now Launched!

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Originally Posted by volkman10 View Post
Ciaz Hybrid - SHVS reaches dealerships - launching soon.
Ah, maybe this was the reason for low sales numbers for the Ciaz in July.
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Old 10th August 2015, 17:16   #30
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Default re: Maruti Ciaz SHVS with Integrated Starter Generator & idling start / stop system. EDIT: Now Launched!

Safety Pack atleast in my books, is a minimum of 6 airbags and a certified crash test rating at an international automobile crash test assessment body like the NCAP. Also, would it be too much to ask for a 1.6 DDiS 320 engine borrowed from the S- Cross albeit tuned for better low to mid range performance and mated to an automatic? I'm sure Maruti will sell well no matter what, but the Competition is going to get fiercer with cars from a segment below the Ciaz like the Figo Aspire getting 6 airbags for the top end variant. Safety must not be taken for granted and the active and safety features should not be a "pack". It should be standard across variants.
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