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Old 2nd September 2015, 12:24   #136
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Default re: A Close Look: Fiat Punto Abarth. EDIT: Now launched at Rs. 9.95 lakhs!

Quote:
Originally Posted by nkrishnap View Post
1.6 GT TDI is a diesel and I feel it should not be brought up for the comparison with the Tjet Abarth. If and when Fiat launches the 1.6 MJD it will be an apt comparison.
Hey nkrishnap the point I was trying to make was the real competence that a mainstream hatch must offer.
In fact, the 1.6 GT TDI is not even in production and I was in no way comparing it with the Abarth Evo T-jet.

The next big thing in Automotive industry is not about big engines with great performance at the cost of fuel efficiency. Its about a mix of both which is quite a bit tricky. That is the reason why BMW I8 happened and so is the hybrid happening.

Please don't get me wrong here. I am all to Fiat for offering the Punto Evo T-jet and the Abarth to India. But I personally feel that just a pumped up version of a regular hatch without even addressing some of the biggest flaws reported by Fiat Faithfuls, is a big bummer !!


Quote:
Originally Posted by avisidhu View Post

Would something like 40-120 in 3rd gear give a better picture?
I am sure it must give a much better picture with respect to absolute performance avisidhu.

But what I was really trying to showcase was the fact that weight of a performance car matters as much as the power of the engine.

Though the GTs are less on power, they seem to have a much better power-to-weight ratio, well engineered turbo and a perfect gear box which keeps the performance right up there.

Last edited by Vik0728 : 2nd September 2015 at 12:27.
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Old 2nd September 2015, 13:08   #137
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Default re: A Close Look: Fiat Punto Abarth. EDIT: Now launched at Rs. 9.95 lakhs!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vik0728 View Post
So Punto Abarth is supposed to be the first mainstream "Hot Hatch" in India. I really commend and appreciate the efforts from FIAT. But, here is the data I pulled out:

Punto EVO Abarth T-jet

0-100kph: 9.41s, 30-50kph in 3rd: 3.91s, 30-50kph in 4th: 7.48s, 50-70kph in 5th: 9.46s, 11kpl (overall), Top speed: 180kph


VW 1.2 GT TSI

0-100 in 10.85sec, 30-50kph in 3rd 1.89sec, 50-70kph in 4th 2.48sec, 12.7 (Overall), Top speed: 172kph
You missed one small thing, which really makes a world of difference.

The timings for the Punto Abarth are mentioned for a specific gear since it is a manual gearbox. The timings for the GT TSi are mentioned in kickdown mode, since it is an automatic. It might as well have downshifted even to 1st or second. Similarly, the 50 - 70 kph dash for the GT TSi might have been done in 3rd gear by the DSG since it is designed to kickdown to a lower gear when the accelerator pedal is smashed to the floor.

Quote:
In-line, 4cyl, 1386cc, 145bhp, 211Nm, 0-100kph: 9.41s, 30-50kph in 3rd: 3.91s, 30-50kph in 4th: 7.48s, 50-70kph in 5th: 9.46s, top speed: 180kph (approx.), fuel efficiency: 11kpl
Source - http://www.topgear.com/india/fiat/re...-evo/itemid-51

Quote:
1197cc, 4cyl, turbocharged petrol, 103bhp, 175Nm, 7DSG, 0-100kph in 10.85sec, 30-50kph in 1.89sec, 50-70kph in 2.48sec, 80-0kph in 25.35m/2.27sec, 12.75kpl, 172kph,
Source - http://www.topgear.com/india/volkswa...-tsi/itemid-51

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vik0728 View Post
P.S - I could not get the data for the 1.5 GT TDI but I am quite sure it is not way off the numbers from the 1.6 GT TDi.
1.5 GT TDi is significantly slower than the 1.6 GT TDi. As per AutocarIndia, 1.5 GT TDi acheives 0-100 in 11.52 secs compared to 10.51 secs for the 1.6 GT TDi. More than a second slower to 100.

Source - http://www.autocarindia.com/auto-rev...-390573,2.aspx

Quote:
Originally Posted by avisidhu View Post
Interesting. To be honest I didn't think that 9.4 mark for 0-100 was that impressive(or important), but was hoping it would blast everything under 20 lakhs when it comes to timings like 30-50 in 3rd etc. Wonder why it performs so abysmally? Would something like 40-120 in 3rd gear give a better picture?
Guys, its a turbo petrol.

30-50kph in 4th and 50-70kph in 5th gear and all are right out of the turbo zone. You need to shift. Period. Having a 145 bhp turbo petrol and trying to smash the accelerator pedal from 50 in 50th gear just doesn't cut it.

PS - People were shocked to see the dismal figures for the 1.6 MJD as well in such reviews. Whereas it is such a monster once the turbo kicks in.

Last edited by CrAzY dRiVeR : 2nd September 2015 at 13:13.
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Old 2nd September 2015, 13:11   #138
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Default re: A Close Look: Fiat Punto Abarth. EDIT: Now launched at Rs. 9.95 lakhs!

Comparison of acceleration under 2000 RPM for hot hatches is a bit meaningless IMO Also, I don't know what made Top Gear guys to check 4th gear acceleration from 30. Which enthusiast in his right mind would slot a petrol car (either NA or turbo) into 4th at 30 and floor the pedal? (I wouldn't do it even in a Diesel)

The T-Jet is known to have some amount of turbo lag, while the GTs are almost free from turbo lag.
The TSI's 30-50 in 3rd gear(agreed it is shorter) is very impressive. Even the almost lag free TDI with its 250nm gets beaten.

The Punto, even with its rubbery gearshift managing 9.5s is indeed quite impressive IMO. Where the TSI takes less than 1s for 2 gear shifts, the Punto will easily take more than 2s.

Neck to neck comparison in terms of engine power alone, the Punto with a DSG would easily do 8-8.2s to 100 compared to 10.5s+ of the TSI with DSG, which is very good for 40HP increase. This IMO shows what the Abarth will feel like in real world.

The Linea's T-Jet made 113HP from 207Nm. The Abarth putting out 145 with just 4Nm torque increase means Fiat has worked on maintaining the torque curve longer which was Linea's achilles heal.

The Linea makes its peak power at 5000 RPM meaning, the torque output will be close to 162Nm. 207 @ 2200 -> 160 @ 5000 .
The Abarth makes its peak power at 5500 RPM meaning, the torque output will be close to 188Nm. 211 @ 2200? -> 188 @ 5500.

It clearly shows that the Abarth is very aggressive once it comes out of the turbo lag and has a wide powerband, which was Linea's drawback as it ran out of power after 5500. Autocar's review states that the Abarth eagerly hits its 6500 RPM limit, which again makes me doubt that the Abarth would run out of steam at 180km/h. My guess is that the Abarth hits its top speed around/above 200 km/h since the Linea did 190+.

The TDI even though very aggressive, has the diesel's drawback of narrow powerband. In spite of having 250 Nm, falls short to 170Nm at its peak power point of 4400 RPM, while the Abarth happily churns out 188Nm even 1100 RPM later.
In comparison, the TSI retains 150Nm at its peak power point of 5000 even though it produces only 175Nm peak torque, again showing the wide power band advantage of the petrols.

I also seriously doubt Top Gear's claim that the TSI has a top speed of 172. I remember reading that the TSI hits 190 top whack.

In the end, I'd like to point out that I own neither a VW, nor a FIAT. I guess I'm neutral to both. I'm just trying to state facts here since I'm a fan of both these companies for what they have done to the enthusiasts and a fanboy of neither, since this thread is very sensitive

From a neutral POV, a hot hatch should have not only engine power, but its supension, steering and gearbox sorted out as well.

The normal Polos had the advantage of gearbox, whereas the normal Puntos had the advantage of suspension and steering.
VW decided to retain the comfort oriented suspension and steering which is the biggest drawback, where as FIAT decided to carry over the gearshift action which is its biggest drawback. It is left to the people which one they would pick IMO.
If only FIAT had borrowed the gear shift action from Tata Bolt!

Last edited by theredliner : 2nd September 2015 at 13:12.
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Old 2nd September 2015, 13:49   #139
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Default re: A Close Look: Fiat Punto Abarth. EDIT: Now launched at Rs. 9.95 lakhs!

Quote:
Originally Posted by theredliner View Post
It clearly shows that the Abarth is very aggressive once it comes out of the turbo lag and has a wide powerband, which was Linea's drawback as it ran out of power after 5500. Autocar's review states that the Abarth eagerly hits its 6500 RPM limit, which again makes me doubt that the Abarth would run out of steam at 180km/h. My guess is that the Abarth hits its top speed around/above 200 km/h since the Linea did 190+.
The stock T-Jet looses steam at about 5000 RPM. It will rev more, but one can feel it struggle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by theredliner View Post
In the end, I'd like to point out that I own neither a VW, nor a FIAT. I guess I'm neutral to both. I'm just trying to state facts here since I'm a fan of both these companies for what they have done to the enthusiasts and a fanboy of neither, since this thread is very sensitive

From a neutral POV, a hot hatch should have not only engine power, but its supension, steering and gearbox sorted out as well.

The normal Polos had the advantage of gearbox, whereas the normal Puntos had the advantage of suspension and steering.
VW decided to retain the comfort oriented suspension and steering which is the biggest drawback, where as FIAT decided to carry over the gearshift action which is its biggest drawback. It is left to the people which one they would pick IMO.
If only FIAT had borrowed the gear shift action from Tata Bolt!
Even if FIAT had made the perfect Punto Abarth I really wonder how many on this forum would have bought it, given it's poor history. I am guessing not many.
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Old 2nd September 2015, 13:56   #140
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Default re: A Close Look: Fiat Punto Abarth. EDIT: Now launched at Rs. 9.95 lakhs!

Quote:
Originally Posted by theredliner View Post
From a neutral POV, a hot hatch should have not only engine power, but its supension, steering and gearbox sorted out as well.

The normal Polos had the advantage of gearbox, whereas the normal Puntos had the advantage of suspension and steering. VW decided to retain the comfort oriented suspension and steering which is the biggest drawback, where as FIAT decided to carry over the gearshift action which is its biggest drawback. It is left to the people which one they would pick IMO.
Spot on theredliner. VW is even bigger bummer to have retained the comfort suspension and that EPS when they wanted to position the sportier version of the Polo. At the same time is Fiat is sitting with the old gear box, but they have made an attempt to fix the others like, the ride height, providing additional braking power with rear discs, stiffening the ride and not the least the power bump.

Give me a Polo TSI with the suspension, brakes and steering of Punto, I will take it any day, until then the GT simply doesn't cut it for me as it is only pretending to be sporty in comfort clothes.

As CD mentioned who in the right mind would want to do a 30-50 or 30-80 in 4th gear in a turbo petrol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vik0728 View Post
Please don't get me wrong here. I am all to Fiat for offering the Punto Evo T-jet and the Abarth to India. But I personally feel that just a pumped up version of a regular hatch without even addressing some of the biggest flaws reported by Fiat Faithfuls, is a big bummer !!
Care to elaborate on some of the biggest flaws that Fiat has forgotten to fix with the Abarth? Also as mentioned above, VW too has not sorted out the DSG gearbox yet (still an reliable unit). So each manufacturer have their way of operating in a particular segment and hence singling out only one manufacturer doesn't seem apt at all.

CD has clarified about the numbers you have put forth. Not sure, if the Polo Tsi is tested for roll on numbers for the specific gears? If yes, then those numbers should be compared. If not, the roll on comparison is not apples to apples comparison.

Last edited by nkrishnap : 2nd September 2015 at 14:04.
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Old 2nd September 2015, 17:56   #141
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Default re: A Close Look: Fiat Punto Abarth. EDIT: Now launched at Rs. 9.95 lakhs!

The biggest issue with the abarth is that its still a Fiat. One look at this thread and you can see people still complaining about it starting from the exhaust tip, door handle design, ride height to the gearbox. Door handle resembles the Puntos shape and gels with the car perfectly. Ride height if lowered less than 155mm will make it unusable. But then its a fiat and if it's a Fiat something should be wrong with it!

On the serious side, If I am looking at pure driving pleasure alone, I wouldn't give much consideration to the polo twins. Why? That's because the handling, steering feel, ride, brakes and the over all dynamics and poise of the Punto/Linea is miles ahead of the Polo/Vento twins. A hot hatch is not about engine alone. Agreed it's a critical factor but my underpowered Linea 1.4 has taught me some lessons about how much various other factors add up to the driving pleasure. Even my Jetta doesn't make me feel as confident as the Linea around corners. In reality a Jetta will handle & brake better than the Linea but the driver has to feel it too. After all driving pleasure is all about feeling it. The way Puntos steering feels around a corner is something else. Neither the Jetta or Polo matches it.

What about brakes? Polos stopping power is really inadequate and I'm still wondering why non of the enthusiasts here are complaining about it. And I'm speaking about 1.2 TDI here. The heavier GTs will be worse. Other than the bit sharp initial bite there is nothing left later. Which means you feel the brakes are good during normal use but in an emergency situation you are in deep trouble. It may be tough to agree with me but then polo owners please check your stopping power on a free highway @ 90kmph. Both my Linea & polo runs on 195/65 R15 tyres with the same disc and drum combo. Lineas brakes bites in progressively with a very strong bite in the end. And the passengers aren't thrown around either. The Punto with all discs around would only be better.

The polo has the edge when it comes to the gearbox. Polos gears are a lot slicker with short throws. But then I don't think the fiat gearbox is as bad as its being reported here. The Fiat gearbox feels the worst when the car is new and the odo is below 10k. My Lineas gears were too tough to shift when it was new. But it freed up as I hit around 10-15k. New Punto evos that I checked felt similar to my Lineas GB 5 years earlier. Once behind the wheel I don't feel a drastic difference between the polos and Lineas shift feel( I am someone who flicks through the gears). It's got a rubbery feel to it. But it doesn't register in my head when I'm driving. Where fiats gearbox feels pathetic are the gear ratios. 1st and 2nd are too short, 100kmph comes up @3000rpm on my 1.4 FIRE. And I sincerely hope they have tweaked the ratios for the abarth. Again some one was saying about shifting gears faster. I am able to shift gears and move faster in the Linea than the polo due to the clutch calibration. In the Linea despite long clutch travel the clutch engages/disengages while you have lifted your foot at almost 30% of the pedal travel. In the polo same happens at around 70%. Simply put the polos clutch requires more time to complete the shift.(it's harder too) I always depress the pedal completely while shifting gears. This timing poses a bit difficultly in the polo if you have to shift gears during an overtaking move. Unless you have lifted your foot almost completely you won't get power. These are certain facts which I haven't seen in any review but makes a difference in real life. I'm surprised that all are making noises about puntos gearbox but all of them are equally silent about polos poor brakes, lifeless steering and soft suspension. Let us criticize each and every car equally. Looking from a hot hatch perspective the Punto abarth is a lot more accomplished product than the GTs. I would happily drive around a Punto abarth with the same gearbox than a GT TDI with the said limitations. I don't think GT TSI can be compared to the manual abarth because the convenience of automatic can never be matched by a manual. But driving pleasure? Punto Abarth has got power, ride, handling, looks, proper brakes and an average gearbox. No cars perfect. But an average gearbox is any day better than bad brakes & lifeless steering on a hot hatch. And going by fiat standards they should be able to price it near GT TSI which will make it VFM too.

Last edited by SUPERSPORT : 2nd September 2015 at 18:04.
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Old 2nd September 2015, 18:16   #142
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Default re: A Close Look: Fiat Punto Abarth. EDIT: Now launched at Rs. 9.95 lakhs!

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
...
Guys, its a turbo petrol.

30-50kph in 4th and 50-70kph in 5th gear and all are right out of the turbo zone. You need to shift. Period. Having a 145 bhp turbo petrol and trying to smash the accelerator pedal from 50 in 50th gear just doesn't cut it.....
That's precisely what I was trying to say but couldn't articulate properly I guess. Who in their right mind will test a turbo petrol with timings outside the turbo zone is something I just can't fathom

Quote:
Originally Posted by theredliner View Post
.....
The Linea makes its peak power at 5000 RPM meaning, the torque output will be close to 162Nm. 207 @ 2200 -> 160 @ 5000 .
The Abarth makes its peak power at 5500 RPM meaning, the torque output will be close to 188Nm. 211 @ 2200? -> 188 @ 5500.

It clearly shows that the Abarth is very aggressive once it comes out of the turbo lag and has a wide powerband, which was Linea's drawback as it ran out of power after 5500. Autocar's review states that the Abarth eagerly hits its 6500 RPM limit, which again makes me doubt that the Abarth would run out of steam at 180km/h. My guess is that the Abarth hits its top speed around/above 200 km/h since the Linea did 190+...
Brilliant, makes a lot of sense. Nevertheless, as long as it performs well in around 2K-4K RPM zone(which it most certainly does going by the reviews), it should be mighty good for 90% of driving. I'm sure you'd agree that most people wouldn't push even an enthusiast friendly car beyond a certain limit.
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Old 2nd September 2015, 21:11   #143
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Default re: A Close Look: Fiat Punto Abarth. EDIT: Now launched at Rs. 9.95 lakhs!

Quote:
Originally Posted by keroo1099 View Post
The stock T-Jet looses steam at about 5000 RPM. It will rev more, but one can feel it struggle.
I have very limited experience of driving a Linea T-Jet (drove only a few months back) and haven't revved it past 4000 RPM due to lack of road. Since you're an owner, I'd have to agree with you. Then again, some other owners and GTO in his official review have stated that it is good till 5500 RPM. Confused!

Quote:
Originally Posted by nkrishnap View Post
but they have made an attempt to fix the others like, the ride height, providing additional braking power with rear discs, stiffening the ride and not the least the power bump.
Ah, how could I forget the brakes? It is really commendable that FIAT provides rear disc brakes with T-Jet engine even in base variants (Linea Active) even though their disc+drum setup is already among the best in class. FIAT did justice to Abarth badge by making a lot of changes without directly plonking in the 113 HP T-jet into Punto 90 HP's body.

For me too personally, Abarth easily comes across as a more-complete driver oriented package / hot hatch.
Till the time Abarth made news, 1.6 GT TDI would have been my choice though, among the hatches. It's a shame that they replaced the 1.6 with a tame 1.5, that too without passing on any benefits to the end consumer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by avisidhu View Post
Brilliant, makes a lot of sense. Nevertheless, as long as it performs well in around 2K-4K RPM zone(which it most certainly does going by the reviews), it should be mighty good for 90% of driving. I'm sure you'd agree that most people wouldn't push even an enthusiast friendly car beyond a certain limit.
Yes, I agree. Most of the driving would be between 2K-4K. The Abarth probably stays in peak torque in almost that entire range.
When one sees a super smooth tarmac, there'll always be those 2-2.5K revs which will show why a turbo petrol is special
Diesel like torque at low end + Same torque spread over wider powerband + High revs of an NA petrol (a bit less though). It's like having a cake and eating it too.

(Only some people like me who are fans of sport bikes and are used to redlining their bikes everyday may rev it more often though )

Last edited by theredliner : 2nd September 2015 at 21:14.
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Old 2nd September 2015, 21:47   #144
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Default re: A Close Look: Fiat Punto Abarth. EDIT: Now launched at Rs. 9.95 lakhs!

CD bang on ! Well given answers to the comparison made between TSI DSG and TJet .30 - 50kph in 3rd is acceptable in the MJD to the least. And how much is 30-50 in the 4th, worthy of mentioning? Was this done based on the template test done on the TSI?

One more failed comparison attempt to the TSI !
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Old 3rd September 2015, 08:20   #145
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Default re: A Close Look: Fiat Punto Abarth. EDIT: Now launched at Rs. 9.95 lakhs!

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Originally Posted by theredliner View Post
I have very limited experience of driving a Linea T-Jet (drove only a few months back) and haven't revved it past 4000 RPM due to lack of road. Since you're an owner, I'd have to agree with you. Then again, some other owners and GTO in his official review have stated that it is good till 5500 RPM. Confused!
Did an early morning run this morning to confirm what I had written. Sorry, I was wrong.

Stock Map: It pulls strongly till about 4500 and then it plateaus of till 6000. Ran out of road so can't confirm if it will go higher. Did three runs which were more or less similar, but the engine gets coarse and noisy above 5000.

Map-2: It just revs much faster through the band, and instead of a plateau at 4500 you have a mild curve. It hit about 6200 on a shorter stretch of road. Only one run possible, but thankfully the engine is smoother than stock above 5000. My mildly modified 2005 Swift which pulls to 6500 is much smoother than Map-2.

All runs were done in 2nd from about 30-40 kmph. Sorry, no idea what the top speeds were, I was concentrating on the tach.

I was pleasantly suprised that it pulled to 6000 even with the stock map. I guess since I never really had the need to belt it like I did this morning (normal driving I rarely need to go above 4000), I never exploited its full potential, but I do distinctly remember that it would feel very strained past 5500 when it was a couple of thousand km old. Maybe the engine has just started to open up, which is .
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Old 3rd September 2015, 10:58   #146
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Default re: A Close Look: Fiat Punto Abarth. EDIT: Now launched at Rs. 9.95 lakhs!

Since the peak bhp is at 5000rpm does it make sense to push the car beyond that?
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Old 3rd September 2015, 11:24   #147
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Default re: A Close Look: Fiat Punto Abarth. EDIT: Now launched at Rs. 9.95 lakhs!

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Originally Posted by SUPERSPORT View Post
The biggest issue with the abarth is that its still a Fiat. One look at this thread and you can see people still complaining about it starting from the exhaust tip, door handle design, ride height to the gearbox. Door handle resembles the Puntos shape and gels with the car perfectly. Ride height if lowered less than 155mm will make it unusable. But then its a fiat and if it's a Fiat something should be wrong with it!
Well put.The Polo GTs are no match for the Punto Abarth. People can only complain about the Gearbox. What else can they complain about on the Abarth Punto mechanicals. Zilch! The gearbox will all be forgotten when you are actually involved in driving the Punto Abarth. At around 10 lakhs it will definitely be value for money. This is actually the real hot hatch in the market for the complete package it offers. Can easily do 200kmph.

Last edited by Gannu_1 : 3rd September 2015 at 12:13. Reason: Trimming quoted content. Inconveniences our mobile readers. Thanks.
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Old 3rd September 2015, 11:57   #148
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Sorry to post a damper here but all the excitement here pertains to the powerful engine AND the around 10 lakh price. Sometime ago a similar excitement was seen in the S cross thread. The minute the prices were out all talk was only about the insane pricing of the 1.6 !

I'm sure the people at suzuki were watching the online forums and thought" they'd buy it anyway , let's jack the prices up! ".
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Old 3rd September 2015, 12:31   #149
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Default re: A Close Look: Fiat Punto Abarth. EDIT: Now launched at Rs. 9.95 lakhs!

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Originally Posted by sunsetorange View Post
Sorry to post a damper here but all the excitement here pertains to the powerful engine AND the around 10 lakh price. Sometime ago a similar excitement was seen in the S cross thread. The minute the prices were out all talk was only about the insane pricing of the 1.6 !

I'm sure the people at suzuki were watching the online forums and thought" they'd buy it anyway , let's jack the prices up! ".
  • Suzuki had spent a lot on creating NEXA showrooms which would have also influenced the prices of S-cross. There are no separate Abarth showrooms
  • Fiat Punto Evo has more part sharing with the Abarth Punto Evo than S-Cross has with other Suzuki cars
  • Suzuki has Royalty to pay which Fiat doesn't have to
There are some of the reasons why Fiat has a greater probability to stay below the number 10 even in the pricing just like the 0-100 timing.

The biggest threat for them however are they themselves. If they are lazy like before, i20N and GTi may get the better of them

Last edited by Aditya : 4th September 2015 at 06:54. Reason: Corrected as requested.
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Old 3rd September 2015, 13:26   #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deathwalkr View Post
Since the peak bhp is at 5000rpm does it make sense to push the car beyond that?
I guess it doesn't, but it still had sufficient 'shove' between 5000 and 6000 in 2nd which surprised me, and this is with the stock map.

On the highway the acceleration above 5000 should be significantly slower in 3rd or 4th, the gear you would normally be in while overtaking slower traffic, so I guess 4500-5000 should be optimum when changing up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by whencut86 View Post
Well put.The Polo GTs are no match for the Punto Abarth. People can only complain about the Gearbox. What else can they complain about on the Abarth Punto mechanicals. Zilch! The gearbox will all be forgotten when you are actually involved in driving the Punto Abarth. At around 10 lakhs it will definitely be value for money. This is actually the real hot hatch in the market for the complete package it offers. Can easily do 200kmph.
The only other thing that can put people off is the driving position which is typical Italian. It really won't matter if the car can do 20 kmph or 200 kmph if you can't find a comfortable position.

Last edited by ampere : 3rd September 2015 at 13:53. Reason: Merged back to back posts
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