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Old 3rd September 2015, 13:48   #151
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Default re: A Close Look: Fiat Punto Abarth. EDIT: Now launched at Rs. 9.95 lakhs!

Going by Linea emotion 1.4 T jet ex showroom price of Rs. 977726.00, I am sure Punto Abarth won't be priced more than Linea because linea cost 1 lac more over Puntos in all the specs.
Regarding gearbox, I am driving Linea 1.4 na since last six and half years and its very smooth and one needs to understand it that why 1st and 2nd gears are short because its a heavy car than maruti's light cars and need to pull more weight and that's what was explained to us at Fiat factory during our visit there in 2011.
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Old 3rd September 2015, 14:07   #152
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Default re: A Close Look: Fiat Punto Abarth. EDIT: Now launched at Rs. 9.95 lakhs!

Guys I am sorry if I 'Poked' a Fiat Enthusiast wrongly by posting a comparison between Abarth, TSI and TDI.
I was not comparing these cars with a sole intent of elevating/demoting any of them.

I will be very honest here about the fact that though I picked GT TDI for its performance, efficiency and looks, it was not really my first choice. I was so waiting for Punto T-jet to happen and the unending delay by Fiat made me go in for the GT.

I agree that there is no point in loathing over the drive-ability of a Turbo Petrol under 2k RPM. But my understanding is that if one has to downshift within this band often, wouldn't this affect the fuel consumption to a great extent? 20 out of 31 days, most of the owners of small cars stay between 1.5-3k rpm.
Please correct me if I am wrong here, my understanding is that EVO T-jet's biggest projected USP will not be the 145 BHP, nor a 0-100km/hr of 9.5sec or the all round disk breaks. It has to be the much awaited and anticipated pricing of about 10lks. This puts it right amongst the best selling diesel hatches in India like Elite, Swift, Jazz(?), etc.

So what I don't seem to understand is:

- Is Fiat positioning Abarth EVO as a Premium Offering over and above a regular Linea T-Jet? If yes, why would anybody buy the latter anymore, other than probably for boot?

- In many an Indian mind, Size of the car is directly proportional to the cost. So a bigger chunk of prospective buyers, read non-enthusiasts essentially, may still consider a Honda City (I-vtec) or even a Ciaz Hybrid as a better value. So, wouldn't Fiat be back to square one that happened with Linea Tjet?

- As Hemanth mentioned, unlike Suzuki who atleast go the length of bifurcating regular cars from the premium (Nexa), Fiat will sell the Abarth T-jet along regular Puntos & Linea. Would a prospective buyer really see a premium offering in this scenario?

- My experience with Punto matches what keroo1099 has posted. I don't want to adjust/compromise/live with a bad seating position of a car just because I have spent a fortune on it. So if Abarth EVO is the answer for all the enthusiast, why not fix that 'In the face' steering wheel and 'Stretch to Depress' kind of clutch pedals? If Abarth is a premium offering from Fiat, how much of a 'Premium' will it be to just add a Reach & Rake steering adjustment?


P.S - I am really not a VW or GT Fanboy and I am not the one who would bash a particular car looking at the monthly sale numbers.

Last edited by Vik0728 : 3rd September 2015 at 14:16.
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Old 3rd September 2015, 14:29   #153
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Default re: A Close Look: Fiat Punto Abarth. EDIT: Now launched at Rs. 9.95 lakhs!

Quote:
Originally Posted by keroo1099 View Post
I have a Swift, and had a Baleno before I got the T-jet and never had a problem shifting quickly when required, and without mashing the gears.
I have spent enough time behind the wheel of the Swift and Baleno. Both, in my opinion, have better, lighter shift action, a shorter and lighter clutch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by keroo1099 View Post
In the end it all comes down to one's priorities.
I agree with you. What does annoy me is when manufacturers ignore customer views and do nothing about. Ask any Fiat owner for how long we've asked for a better gearbox and better driver ergonomics. I'd say its about 6 years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by keroo1099 View Post
I do find that the T-Jets transmission feels sticky first thing in the morning.
Requires a little more effort but does not trouble the driver.

Quote:
Originally Posted by keroo1099 View Post
Personally, I would rather have an iffy gearbox with power, instead of a slick gearbox with iffy power.
I am not sure what your definition of iffy power is. A Swift diesel, that is down by about 17bhp, can run circles around a Evo 90 and a lot of it has to do with the gearbox.

Quote:
Originally Posted by keroo1099 View Post
Try double-declutching between 2nd and 3rd to determine if u have a problem with your gearbox.
Like I said, the gearbox operates perfectly fine when you are not doing things in a hurry. No fault with my gearbox for sure.
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Old 3rd September 2015, 14:52   #154
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Default re: A Close Look: Fiat Punto Abarth. EDIT: Now launched at Rs. 9.95 lakhs!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vik0728 View Post
...
I agree that there is no point in loathing over the drive-ability of a Turbo Petrol under 2k RPM. But my understanding is that if one has to downshift within this band often, wouldn't this affect the fuel consumption to a great extent? 20 out of 31 days, most of the owners of small cars stay between 1.5-3k rpm.
...
For an NA petrol engine yes this holds true. But you are supposed to change this pattern for any turbo charged vehicle, diesel or petrol. At least in theory, in a turbo petrol staying in turbo zone should be even more easy since you can rev it more in the lower gear without straining the engine.

So I'll repeat what me and few others have been saying, rather than the numbers quoted above, how it performs within the 2K to 4K or 5K band in each gear should give no less than 90% idea of its performance in real world.
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Old 3rd September 2015, 14:54   #155
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Default re: A Close Look: Fiat Punto Abarth. EDIT: Now launched at Rs. 9.95 lakhs!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vik0728 View Post
I don't want to adjust/compromise/live with a bad seating position of a car just because I have spent a fortune on it.
I beg to differ here.
Agree driving position is a bit awkward for guys taking to wheels for the first time.
Its matter of time, say a few days one finds the right/comfortable position. In no way it’s bad that one have to compromise throughout the ownership period.

Last edited by S.MJet : 3rd September 2015 at 14:55.
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Old 3rd September 2015, 15:04   #156
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Default re: A Close Look: Fiat Punto Abarth. EDIT: Now launched at Rs. 9.95 lakhs!

Quote:
Originally Posted by hemanth.anand View Post
  • Suzuki had spent a lot on creating NEXA showrooms which would have also influenced the prices of S-cross. There are no separate Abarth showroms
  • Fiat Punto Evo has more part sharing with the Abarth Punto Evo than S-Cross has with other Suzuki cars
  • Suzuki has Royalty to pay which Fiat doesn't have to
+1.

However, the biggest reason is that the engine and the 6 speed transmission are both imported and hence attracts a heavy duty. It is almost a CKD in that sense!

No such issues for the Punto Abarth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vik0728 View Post
Guys I am sorry if I 'Poked' a Fiat Enthusiast wrongly by posting a comparison between Abarth, TSI and TDI.
You posted wrong figures and did a comparison, and got countered. The forum is run by arguments, facts, figures and logic.

Not emotions. There is no 'poking' any enthusiasts here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vik0728 View Post
Fiat Enthusiast

I am really not a VW or GT Fanboy
The same way you clarify yourself not to be a VW fanboy, I request not to use the term FIAT enthusiasts either.

Let's face it, be it a GT (TSi/ TDi) or the Abarth Punto - there are only a handful of cars under the 10L bracket which can bring a smile on the face of the driver's face. THAT is the reason we all are here, not because of any devotion towards FIAT or Abarth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vik0728 View Post
Please correct me if I am wrong here, my understanding is that EVO T-jet's biggest projected USP will not be the 145 BHP, nor a 0-100km/hr of 9.5sec or the all round disk breaks. It has to be the much awaited and anticipated pricing of about 10lks.

This puts it right amongst the best selling diesel hatches in India like Elite, Swift, Jazz(?), etc.
Sadly this is what the market expects. Bring in a 145bhp turbo petrol with all-round disk brakes and the market still expects the biggest USP to be its pricing equivalent of 75/90hp diesel hatchbacks.

But yes - FIAT seems to be targetting a sub 10-L price.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vik0728 View Post
- Is Fiat positioning Abarth EVO as a Premium Offering
Premium offering, no. Its a performance offering. There is nothing 'premium' about the Abarth Punto above the regular one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vik0728 View Post
- In many an Indian mind, Size of the car is directly proportional to the cost. So a bigger chunk of prospective buyers, read non-enthusiasts essentially, may still consider a Honda City (I-vtec) or even a Ciaz Hybrid as a better value. So, wouldn't Fiat be back to square one that happened with Linea Tjet?
Even if FIAT announces Abarth Punto for 5 lakhs and the City sells for 15L, people will still rush for the City / Ciaz. That has always been the case and has to do with more things than size. Clearly FIAT is not trying to steal customers from City or Ciaz with the Abarth.

If a handful of enthusiasts buy the 145bhp Abarth Punto itself - that would be a big achievement for FIAT, considering the present state.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vik0728 View Post
- My experience with Punto matches what keroo1099 has posted. I don't want to adjust/compromise/live with a bad seating position of a car just because I have spent a fortune on it. So if Abarth EVO is the answer for all the enthusiast, why not fix that 'In the face' steering wheel and 'Stretch to Depress' kind of clutch pedals? If Abarth is a premium offering from Fiat, how much of a 'Premium' will it be to just add a Reach & Rake steering adjustment?
I agree. Those were my first impressions after a test drive as well.

But over the long term - I have done multiple weekend trips that went close to 2000kms on the trip meter. Even over the last week, a death of a relative forced me to take up a 1700 kms trip within 2 days, with both adjacent days being working days. There are some ergonomic flaws that are a pain to live with. There are some that you get you used. I feel the seating position in the Punto is something you get used to, over the long term.

And once again, performance offering. Not "premium" offering.

Last edited by CrAzY dRiVeR : 3rd September 2015 at 15:34.
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Old 3rd September 2015, 16:43   #157
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Default re: A Close Look: Fiat Punto Abarth. EDIT: Now launched at Rs. 9.95 lakhs!

Got a call today from the Abarth dealer in Bangalore, Abarth Punto bookings have started, 20000 is the amount and it is fully refundable incase someone doesnt like the vehicle after getting to drive during the test drive.
Launch in next month sometime in the first week, and their are hinting at a sub-10 lakh ex-showroom price which would equate to a ballpark figure of around 10.5 on-road in Bangalore.
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Old 3rd September 2015, 17:16   #158
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Default re: A Close Look: Fiat Punto Abarth. EDIT: Now launched at Rs. 9.95 lakhs!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandeepmohan View Post
I have spent enough time behind the wheel of the Swift and Baleno. Both, in my opinion, have better, lighter shift action, a shorter and lighter clutch.
Off course they do. No question about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandeepmohan View Post
I agree with you. What does annoy me is when manufacturers ignore customer views and do nothing about. Ask any Fiat owner for how long we've asked for a better gearbox and better driver ergonomics. I'd say its about 6 years.
I guess a lot of us were hoping/asking Maruti Suzuki to launch a version of the Swift with a more powerful engine, better brakes, etc. Would have been very easy for them to do it since a lot of parts are interchangable with minimum, or no modification. I have seen a fair share of modified zens/swifts that will run circles around the T-Jet. 10 years and waiting.

I am guessing that TSi owners had wished for better brakes and steering when it was launched.

Ergonomics: Well if they don't change the driving position for the US of A you think they will do it for us? What they should have done for India is to add reach (to the rake), to mitigate some of the issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandeepmohan View Post
Requires a little more effort but does not trouble the driver.
In my case it bothers me, so I use the double-declutch method to get around it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandeepmohan View Post
I am not sure what your definition of iffy power is. A Swift diesel, that is down by about 17bhp, can run circles around a Evo 90 and a lot of it has to do with the gearbox.
What I meant was I would still take the T-Jet, over any other petrol car in this segment. I will take your word for it that the swift run's circles around a punto. I guess it also comes down to; power to weight, and gearing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandeepmohan View Post
Like I said, the gearbox operates perfectly fine when you are not doing things in a hurry. No fault with my gearbox for sure.
Agree, this gearbox doesnt like to be hurried. Glad to know your box is ok.
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Old 3rd September 2015, 17:31   #159
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Default re: A Close Look: Fiat Punto Abarth. EDIT: Now launched at Rs. 9.95 lakhs!

Quote:
Originally Posted by adneo View Post
Got a call today from the Abarth dealer in Bangalore, Abarth Punto bookings have started, 20000 is the amount and it is fully refundable incase someone doesnt like the vehicle after getting to drive during the test drive.
Launch in next month sometime in the first week, and their are hinting at a sub-10 lakh ex-showroom price which would equate to a ballpark figure of around 10.5 on-road in Bangalore.
Confirmed the same. The sales person said
  • Only one Variant
  • Launch by October 10th
  • Booking amount of 20K
  • Amount Completely refundable if we decide against buying the car
  • Its only in Fiat Caffe in Bangalore
  • 10 Lakhs ex showroom and 11Lakhs On road. (But I guess a 10lakh ex-showroom in Bangalore will become 12.5 on road considering the taxes in the state)
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Old 4th September 2015, 08:16   #160
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Default re: A Close Look: Fiat Punto Abarth. EDIT: Now launched at Rs. 9.95 lakhs!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandeepmohan View Post
I agree with you. What does annoy me is when manufacturers ignore customer views and do nothing about. Ask any Fiat owner for how long we've asked for a better gearbox and better driver ergonomics. I'd say its about 6 years.
People like you or me, or for that matter anyone on TeamBHP are a really minuscule part of the car buying community, so it really doesn't matter what we want. I'll bet the market research surveys done by the manufacturers say that the average car buyer is mainly concerned about looks, features, and 'Kitna Deti Hai', so all you need to do is bring out 'updated' versions with a few new features and trim every year, and let the cash registers ring. I don't think the average Indian buyer has reached the point where it understands the importance of the 'other' factors that can make driving more enjoyable and safe, so why provide for it.

Maruti, could easily plonk the 1.4P into the Swift, with requisite upgrades to brakes and suspension and have a semi-hot hatch. Honda could do the same with the Brio by putting in the 1.5 VTEC (and what a car that would be), but they won't because they don't have to. Except for Hyundai with the Verna, and now Creta, all the other's give us one petrol, one diesel, and tell us to choose. Ok, forget giving us engine options, at least give us a couple of different states of tune with the same engine!!. It can't be that hard.
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Old 4th September 2015, 14:07   #161
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Default re: A Close Look: Fiat Punto Abarth. EDIT: Now launched at Rs. 9.95 lakhs!

Quote:
Originally Posted by keroo1099 View Post
People like you or me, or for that matter anyone on TeamBHP are a really minuscule part of the car buying community, so it really doesn't matter what we want.
No doubt about this.

With regard to the Swift and the Brio, they are pretty awesome even with their current engines. Yes; we did wish for a bigger motor but the cars don't need it. They are quite nippy. The enthusiast club would have loved a Swift 1.6l. Sri Lanka gets the Swift 1.6l from India. Something tells me that the obsession around Maruti's "mileage" image, is what sealed the fate of the 1.6l ever making it to the Swift.

It is a different story with Fiat. When both the Linea and Punto were launched, we got wheezy engines. Both the cars needed a more powerful motor from day one. It took them 3 years or more to think of a better and more powerful motor. When they did launch the Punto diesel 90, it got everyone excited. After driving one myself, I thought the 75 was better. When we got the T Jet, it did make the Linea a much better car to drive. This is the engine the car should have been launched with. The same for the diesel. The car needed a bigger or more powerful motor. The 1.3l diesel is pushed to its limits. As a result, it was never going to be efficient. I am pretty sure all those early timing chain failures or maintenance recalls are a result of highly stressed mechanical components.

What do you say when Suzuki gets hold of Fiat's 1.6l diesel. They understand a car like the S Cross needs it. They have given the customer the option to choose.

Another example is VW. When I first heard about their 1.2l Tsi on a Polo, I was not particularly excited. After driving one, my views changed. We have a small engine that delivers on the claimed figures too. This tiny engines is so good that its a riot even on a Vento. Efficient as well.

VW 1.2 TDI. Most dismiss it for it being a 3 pot, low on paper power, rough and noisy engine. Drive one and it is more than capable.

We have Abarth now, however, the T Jet motor should have been offered on the Punto as well and I am not asking for it from a enthusiast stand point. The car needed it cause the NA's were hopeless.

It is not just Fiat. Quite a few manufacturers have lost the plot when it comes to slotting the right engine on their cars. Some engines are more paper power than real world power.

Anyway; It looks like the good times are back for those who want a fast, affordable hatch.

Last edited by sandeepmohan : 4th September 2015 at 14:09.
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Old 4th September 2015, 17:11   #162
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Default re: A Close Look: Fiat Punto Abarth. EDIT: Now launched at Rs. 9.95 lakhs!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandeepmohan View Post
What do you say when Suzuki gets hold of Fiat's 1.6l diesel. They understand a car like the S Cross needs it. They have given the customer the option to choose.

It is not just Fiat. Quite a few manufacturers have lost the plot when it comes to slotting the right engine on their cars. Some engines are more paper power than real world power.

Anyway; It looks like the good times are back for those who want a fast, affordable hatch.
Imagine what you do to a FIAT dealers already pummelled morale when you give your rival an engine you desperately need.

FIAT has never understood how to market their cars properly world over. They failed in the US where it was jokingly called 'Fix It Again Tony' . Almost no prescence in Europe except for the Italians who seem to buy them, and nothing in Asia.

I guess FIAT's position in India is like a cornered rat, and it just had to fight back. So kudos to FIAT India for finally bring us an exciting (but not perfect) product that will hopefully get the competition thinking. I honestly hope that FIAT and other bit players start gaining ground in India, because the last thing I want is to be stuck choosing between a Maruti and a Hyundai.
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Old 5th September 2015, 13:20   #163
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Default re: A Close Look: Fiat Punto Abarth. EDIT: Now launched at Rs. 9.95 lakhs!

Some time ago, I had suggested that one could buy a Polo TSI instead of the Abarth Punto and spend the 1.5-2 lakhs difference by sorting out the TSI (Bilstein B6 shocks, Tarox rotors, C.C. Remap, etc.) These little modifications will help the GT feel more like a hot hatch and less like a commuter car with a nice drivetrain. After all, unlike the Punto Abarth which is a sorted package asides the gearbox, the Polo's suspension, brakes and steering aren't up to the task.

This got me thinking..

If one can fix the downsides of the Polo, I'm sure the Abarth's gearbox issues can be fixed to some extent. A short-shift kit and a clutch-tweak should solve the problem.

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Old 5th September 2015, 22:33   #164
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Default re: A Close Look: Fiat Punto Abarth. EDIT: Now launched at Rs. 9.95 lakhs!

Any chance of it being sold in Mumbai ? I couldn't find any Abarth dealer according to Fiat india website.
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Old 6th September 2015, 09:32   #165
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Default re: A Close Look: Fiat Punto Abarth. EDIT: Now launched at Rs. 9.95 lakhs!

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackwasp View Post
Any chance of it being sold in Mumbai ? I couldn't find any Abarth dealer according to Fiat india website.
I think the Abarth dealers currently being shown on the website are for competizione. Not launching something like this in Mumbai does not seem to be possible.
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