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Old 24th September 2015, 09:53   #271
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Default re: A Close Look: Fiat Punto Abarth. EDIT: Now launched at Rs. 9.95 lakhs!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JayD View Post
The Polo tsi has cutting edge technology like the TSI motor and the 7 speed DSG. What does the Punto have to command a premium over the normal car? A petrol motor lifted from one of the slowest selling sedans in the market? Cheesy looking stripes? Or maybe that lousy driving position and horrible Gearbox.
If you google 'DQ200 problems" you will see how badly it was condemned all over the world.

Netherlands: Was allowed to run only as a taxi until the problem was solved.
Australia: False neutrals and clutch issues. (Still occurring in 2014)
India & China : Mechatronics (issue solved by changing to mineral oil, I hope). In China they actually made the situation worse initially by trying to update the software on 1/2 a million cars!!!

They recalled 1.6 million cars all over the world to fix the gearbox issue, and now with this latest scandal I wonder how 'cutting edge' their technology really is.

The Polo Tsi is certainly a very nice car, but I would rather live with a 'horrible' gearbox that is reliable, than risk the above.
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Old 24th September 2015, 12:17   #272
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Default re: A Close Look: Fiat Punto Abarth. EDIT: Now launched at Rs. 9.95 lakhs!

I have never seen cars/models with a 40BHP differential being compared anywhere, at least in India, ever.

Polo GT is NOT in the same segment as the Punto Abarth, period. Go compare it with the new Figo instead.

As for the gearbox, good bad or ugly, I would choose the Abarth JUST because it's a manual. I will never allow my cars to decide when to shift and when not to shift.
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Old 24th September 2015, 12:38   #273
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Default re: A Close Look: Fiat Punto Abarth. EDIT: Now launched at Rs. 9.95 lakhs!

I own and drive a Linea T-Jet for the past 3 years / 56000 kms. The gear box is not as bad as many seem to think. Yes, it is not as slick as some others and the throw is a bit longish, but it is just a matter of getting used to it. My best 0-100 in stock form was 11.48 seconds and post remap (wolfmoto, map2, 150 hp) 0-100 was 9.32 seconds. That gearbox is good enough for me. Thanks.
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Old 24th September 2015, 12:55   #274
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sidindica View Post

...replace all the abarth logos with Fiat logos. the only total cost incurred will be less than 3k.
You sir have just given us the idea of a mighty sleeper. Who will guess those horses under a regular looking Punto? The only time some one will realize that it's a special car will be when left behind in the dust.
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Old 24th September 2015, 12:59   #275
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Default re: A Close Look: Fiat Punto Abarth. EDIT: Now launched at Rs. 9.95 lakhs!

Quote:
Originally Posted by PatchyBoy View Post
I own and drive a Linea T-Jet for the past 3 years / 56000 kms. The gear box is not as bad as many seem to think. Yes, it is not as slick as some others and the throw is a bit longish, but it is just a matter of getting used to it. My best 0-100 in stock form was 11.48 seconds and post remap (wolfmoto, map2, 150 hp) 0-100 was 9.32 seconds. That gearbox is good enough for me. Thanks.
Is it 150 hp? I thought Rajiv said around 140 hp on Map-2, and around 150 hp on Map-3 using 93 octane (I have stock + 3 maps on mine). But good to know you could shave over 2 seconds off the stock map. Which brand of fuel did you use for the run?
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Old 24th September 2015, 13:03   #276
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Default re: A Close Look: Fiat Punto Abarth. EDIT: Now launched at Rs. 9.95 lakhs!

Any negative post on a Fiat thread is like throwing a stone into a beehive. How many of you who are vehemently supporting fast manual hatches , and especially the Abarth are actually going buy it, at almost 12 lakhs?


Fiat india offered an excellent 100BHP hatch, over 10 years ago, when the market was filled with 50bhp hatches. How many of you have bought it?

I've owned 8 S10s in the past , and own one now too. Done about a lakh of kms on these, and have experienced the pain of owning a 'complex fiat car', which not even the Fiat service center will touch. Ended up scrapping one car to serve as a donor car for my car and to keep some friends car running.


Have had a fair bit of trouble with a punto 90hp too, and the company ended up taking the car back. So i talk from first hand experience.


Quote:
Originally Posted by anand.shankar View Post
1. Glad I was able to amuse you.
2. So the TSI and the DSG makes it the GT an all rounder ? I dint say the Abarth is an all rounder anywhere.
Have I claimed anywhere that the Polo is an all rounder? You asked why I feel the Punto should undercut the Polo and i've listed out MY reasons. I'm not forcing you to accept the same.

Quote:
3. 145 bhp doesn't require a premium over the normal Punto 1.4 Fire ? the 90 HP MJD version sells at 50K premium over the 76Hp MJD Punto. Then according your POV the 90HP itself is very overpriced! The 1.4 FIRE is priced at 9.1Lac on the road, now adding a lac for additional kit and some snob value, brings it to 10.1Lac which is about 20K over the GT TSI. Not considering any discounts on either side, so going by their current pricing, the car will anyways tip over the GT pricing. Just another comparison, the marginally bigger S-Cross DDiS 320 is priced 17.50lacs!

The market has obviously understood that the Punto is overpriced for what it offers. If it was a perfect product with correct pricing, why is it a market dud, Month after month, since launch. When all cars with the same engine are selling significantly more?


Quote:
4. Slowest selling doesn't make Linea a bad car, the Global Fiesta was slow seller too. Those who own one knows what the car is, same with the Linea T-Jet.
Again, i never claimed it to be a bad car. Just mentioned that the engine is lifted from it.

Quote:
5. Abarth has no cult following in India, I don't recollect anyone say that here either.
I do not know what your sources of information are, but like it or not, the Abarth is not a very well know brand in India, outside the Fiat circles.


Quote:
6. EVO Facelift came a year back! Thats not too long ago, you need to factor in the minuscule market they have. They cant launch new cars at will like MSIL or HMSI.
Which is precisely the point. They are not some kitcar maker to be content in a corner with a few hundred cars sold.

If the cars are better than all the others in the market, why are they consistently failing. They have been here over 15 years now, and still cant even hit 3000 cars a month?

Quote:
7. No matter what they price it, going by their track record, we know pretty much what the market response would be. They might sell 100/month if they are real lucky, unless some miracle happens. I guess Fiat knows this as well.

And your point is?


Quote:
8. Finally, its Fiats car and the consumers money. FCA can price it what they want, customers will buy what they want. Basically, they have a new offering, go there if you are interested, else walk on!
Again, if that's the attitude, why are you battling it out so much for FCA here?

Quote:
P.S. This is an open forum, if you feel its overpriced, I have the freedom to have a contradicting opinion ! Your sense of humor wasn't really appreciated. No, before you get there, I am no Fanboy, I have a Fiat and a Toyota, very happy with both.
That applies both ways. Thank you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by motorpsycho View Post
Agreed TSI may be cutting edge technology, but as a driver what matters to me is does the the TSI beat the 145 BHP of the Abarth.

100 odd BHP of the GT TSI is now matched with the now launched Aspire Figo, Figo may not have all the features that GT offers but it is couple of lakhs less.

Coming to Fan or Cult following, I think it is a little premature to say it has no following, let it sell a few and the marketing take effect, more and more enthusiasts will be aware of what it can do, maybe than it will have a cult status.

GearBox - I am not sure about this, since I am yet to come across a detailed review on the gearbox, I hope they fix the ratios.
While i agree that the TSI and the Abarth are different cars, a comparison cant be helped. The comparison comes because these are the main two hatches targeted at enthusiasts.

Technically speaking a Body on ladder 3 cyl TUV is no way related to other crossovers, but still its compared with the Ecosport . The same way this comparison is also valid. That's all .

Regarding Brand recall for Abarth, it might build up in the future. Im talking about the current scenario.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
And let's understand what they are charging for it.

Regular Polo Highline Petrol - Rs 6,58,808 ex-showroom.
Polo GT TSi - Rs 8,62,771/- ex-showroom.

The difference is about two lakhs. For mainly the engine and transmission. All that cutting edge comes at a heavy price too, my friend.

7 Speed twin clutch autobox with tiptronic, TSI Motor,Traction control, ESP etc have no value. The absolutely lackluster Punto petrol has an ex showroom of Rs 7.33 lakh. 1.3 lakhs for all the above mentioned kit sounds overpriced now? Yes, That makes a lot of sense.

If I'm not mistaken, the polo doors too shut with a 'reassuring thud'

Quote:
Still-
1. It's way less powerful
2. Slower inspite of the lightening quick DSG.
3. Has handling at par with the Punto with raised suspension. Remains to be seen if it can match the Punto Abarth with lowered and stiffened springs.
4. Can't hold a candle to the hydraulic steering of the Punto.
How long have you driven the Punto abarth for? If you have penned your driving experience on the forum, kindly do share the link, i seem to have missed it. Thank you.

Quote:
5. Doesn't over any advantage in the braking department over the regular Polo inspite of having additional 30ps.
6. Looks visually similar to the regular Polo except for some minor tweaks.
7. Has less interior space.
Agree completely with you on these points.


Quote:
8. Has big time reliability concerns over the infamous DQ200 7 speed box.
The punto is no Toyota either. A majority of punto's have the side pulling isue, which Fiat blames on 'Indian roads' , and several puntos have rust issues. I personally had an experience where the car was so bad, it was taken back by the company/dealer. Im not revealing too many details here.

Quote:
So let's see - Punto Abarth scores on engine, performance, handling (will need to wait for official review on this one), steering feel, braking, looks (cheesy to you, but can we accept atleast those alloys are delicious?), interior space and reliability.

Still it's not an all rounder because GT scores on more comfort in the form of an automatic transmission and better driving position?
Again, how can you confidently claim that performance is great? the punto 90hp is slower than a swift in real life, and nowhere near as driveable as a Polo Tdi.. So 145 bhp on an abarth, lets see how good it is after launch.

Quote:
I feel both can co-exist in the market at competing prices. Anyways, even FIAT wouldn't be expecting record sales for the Punto Abarth. So not sure why we are worried on it!

Let it coexist , fail or succeed, why are people getting so emotional when something is said against Fiat?

Quote:
PS- And then there is the government that taxes 1.4 TJet more than 1.2 TSi.

So? Just because VW has a capable 1.2 and fiat doesn't, VW is the bad guy?



Quote:
Originally Posted by vb-san View Post
I feel this I am better than you (GT TSI v/s Punto T-Jet) argument is quite uncalled for. There is nothing much cutting edge about the GT TSI, it is amongst the entry-level engines in the VW portfolio and so sparsely kitted when compared to the regular Polo sold in international markets. But yes, on relative terms itís the best hatchback on sale in India (in the 10 lakhs price range) with 100+ ps of power and also got advantages like the DSG AT and class leading safety kit (e.g.; ESP) in that segment. The Punto may not be the real Abarth, but itís a step in the right direction; maybe a compromise when compared to what is sold elsewhere but still a great option to have IMO. Abarth or not, a hatchback touching close of 150ps power is just awesome and hope this will ignite a few more launches in that space.

Cutting edge is in terms of tech. TSI Motor and DSG in a hatch is extremely cutting edge in India where companies are still selling anemic 1.2 l engines with 4 speed autos.

It might be a base engine abroad, but then again, in that context, Multiple airbags and ABS are a basic feature in any developed country, whereas they are seen as 'halo' features only for the top end version, and in some cases, optional in that too. (i10 grand)
And a comparison is inevitable , being the only two enthusiast oriented cars around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by keroo1099 View Post
If you google 'DQ200 problems" you will see how badly it was condemned all over the world.

Netherlands: Was allowed to run only as a taxi until the problem was solved.
Australia: False neutrals and clutch issues. (Still occurring in 2014)
India & China : Mechatronics (issue solved by changing to mineral oil, I hope). In China they actually made the situation worse initially by trying to update the software on 1/2 a million cars!!!

They recalled 1.6 million cars all over the world to fix the gearbox issue, and now with this latest scandal I wonder how 'cutting edge' their technology really is.

The Polo Tsi is certainly a very nice car, but I would rather live with a 'horrible' gearbox that is reliable, than risk the above.

My own car sat in the Fiat A.S.S for 7 months, with a broken radiator. Fiat shoehorned a 1.1 radiator in my car and It broke down on the ,middle of the highway, leaving me stranded on a sunday.

While it as lying there gathering dust, a Senior executive of Fiat India, who happened to visit the A.S.S, was shocked that fiat has made such a model, and that too a petrol 1.6, told me to my face(several members of the forum are witness to that) to 'change this old car and get a new powerful Linea FIRE'

Just wanted to emphasize the point that Fiat service and quality is not that great either.

Last edited by JayD : 24th September 2015 at 13:32. Reason: Fixing quotes.
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Old 24th September 2015, 13:04   #277
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Default re: A Close Look: Fiat Punto Abarth. EDIT: Now launched at Rs. 9.95 lakhs!

Quote:
Originally Posted by PatchyBoy View Post
I own and drive a Linea T-Jet for the past 3 years / 56000 kms.

That gearbox is good enough for me. Thanks.
+1.

After 1L kms, I still have a functional left arm that enjoys shifting gears. It is not slick, but poses no issue during regular shifts. You only feel the notchiness while trying to row through the gears in an extreme hurry.

I feel the issue is being beaten to death because that's the only negative our paper-critics can find about the Punto Abarth.
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Old 24th September 2015, 13:22   #278
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Default re: A Close Look: Fiat Punto Abarth. EDIT: Now launched at Rs. 9.95 lakhs!

Quote:
Originally Posted by vabs78 View Post
I have never seen cars/models with a 40BHP differential being compared anywhere, at least in India, ever.

Polo GT is NOT in the same segment as the Punto Abarth, period. Go compare it with the new Figo instead.

Corolla - 90BHP
Jetta- 140bhp
Cruze- 165 BHP

Aren't these in the same class with more than 40 bhp differential? Or would you compare the 90hp corolla with a Linea and Figo aspire?

Innova 109bhp
XUV - 140 hp

Again aren't these cars compared always?

There is more to a car than just BHP on paper.
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Old 24th September 2015, 13:35   #279
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Default re: A Close Look: Fiat Punto Abarth. EDIT: Now launched at Rs. 9.95 lakhs!

Quote:
Originally Posted by keroo1099 View Post
Is it 150 hp? I thought Rajiv said around 140 hp on Map-2, and around 150 hp on Map-3 using 93 octane (I have stock + 3 maps on mine). But good to know you could shave over 2 seconds off the stock map. Which brand of fuel did you use for the run?
I have the same maps as you do. AFAIK - Map 1 is 140 HP, but very linear and most suitable for city drives. Map 2 is 150 HP with normal fuel and Map 3 is 160 HP with 97 octane fuel. Map 3 is actually based on the stock map of the Euro Spec ECU that I ran for a while in my T-Jet. The quoted 0-100 timings were done on Map 3 with 80% normal Shell petrol + 20% Toluene
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Old 24th September 2015, 13:39   #280
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Default re: A Close Look: Fiat Punto Abarth. EDIT: Now launched at Rs. 9.95 lakhs!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JayD View Post
So 145 bhp on an abarth, lets see how good it is after launch.
I am pretty sure it is not going to be like the Punto 90. If the Linea T Jet is any indication of what the engine is capable of, the Abarth Punto should be a riot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JayD View Post
told me to my face to 'change this old car and get a new powerful Linea FIRE'
Lol. Should have asked him what FIRE stands for. The answer would have been epic.

Last edited by sandeepmohan : 24th September 2015 at 13:41.
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Old 24th September 2015, 13:47   #281
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Default re: A Close Look: Fiat Punto Abarth. EDIT: Now launched at Rs. 9.95 lakhs!

Hey people, it's almost 4 pages and IMHO these are not so required discussions

1. Problems with DSG is discussed a lot during the launch and continued for few more years, assuming everyone knows it now
2. Problem of the Fiat gearbox is already discussed a lot of times

The above 2 points being discussed are like

3. Power comparison - How effectively do we use the power available on tap on a daily usage. It's very rare. In my daily usage, i use all the power from my swift to get off the signal, leave others at dust and go wait inthe next signal for them to come and wait besides/behind me. So what's the use of all that power. The only time I enjoy the power is on highways and overtaking, which contributes to at max 10% of the travel time in a year. So why do we need to have these not so wanted discussions on topics which are rarely used.

Power available on tap for use is a preference for individuals and cannot be generalized. I have driven A3 1.8 TSi (170 BHp) in Germany and the max I have made it in the Autobahns are around 180KmpH. And for making 110KmpH in indian roads, 90-105 BHp is more than sufficient, otheres are case dependant

Dont attack me now
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Old 24th September 2015, 13:48   #282
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Default re: A Close Look: Fiat Punto Abarth. EDIT: Now launched at Rs. 9.95 lakhs!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JayD View Post
My own car sat in the Fiat A.S.S for 7 months, with a broken radiator. And fiat tried to cheat me by shoehorning a 1.1 radiator in my car.

While it as lying there gathering dust, a Senior executive of Fiat India, who happened to visit the A.S.S, was shocked that fiat has made such a model, and that too a petrol 1.6, told me to my face(several members of the forum are witness to that) to 'change this old car and get a new powerful Linea FIRE'

Just wanted to emphasize the point that Fiat service and quality is not that great either.
I was talking only about one specific gearbox and comparing it to the T-Jet's, Not the FIAT brand as a whole.

I am sorry that you had a bad experience with A.S.S. because I have no complaints about A.S.S. with KHT in Bangalore. It has been brilliant so far.

I also don't see many posts on this forum, or others who had problems with the T-jet compared to say posts about the TSi.

I don't think the 'FIAT' crowd is getting upset. It's just that if you want to compare cars or brands, compare them on equal terms. It's stupid to say VW is better than FIAT, or vice versa. All cars have good and bad points, so choose the one that suits you best and have fun driving it.
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Old 24th September 2015, 13:51   #283
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Default re: A Close Look: Fiat Punto Abarth. EDIT: Now launched at Rs. 9.95 lakhs!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JayD View Post
7 Speed twin clutch autobox with tiptronic, TSI Motor,Traction control, ESP etc have no value. The absolutely lackluster Punto petrol has an ex showroom of Rs 7.33 lakh. 1.3 lakhs for all the above mentioned kit sounds overpriced now? Yes, That makes a lot of sense.
No, it doesn't. Would prefer the 1.2 TSi anyday against the NA 1.4 Punto. Not because of the tech underneath, but the way it drives. The same reason why the Abarth Punto is right up and above the GT IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JayD View Post
How long have you driven the Punto abarth for? If you have penned your driving experience on the forum, kindly do share the link, i seem to have missed it. Thank you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayD View Post
Again, how can you confidently claim that performance is great? the punto 90hp is slower than a swift in real life, and nowhere near as driveable as a Polo Tdi.. So 145 bhp on an abarth, lets see how good it is after launch.
And you seemed to have driven? Anyways -

We have two people on the forum having experienced the Abarth Punto. 1. nkrishnap. 2. sidindica. Both of them only had nice things to say. Also - the reviews are out regarding the performance aspect and it is clearly faster as per all reviews.

Now, if you dont believe any of those reports and would believe only mine - I'm flattered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JayD View Post
So? Just because VW has a capable 1.2 and fiat doesn't, VW is the bad guy?
Capable - yes.
Comparable - Not entirely. There is a significant difference in the performance and timings are already out in different magazine reviews.

VW has a 1.4 TSi as well. Mate it with a manual and we do have a direct competitor. Hope they bring it out and we get better options.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JayD View Post
Corolla - 90BHP
Jetta- 140bhp
Cruze- 165 BHP
I would not even touch the Corolla 90hp with a bargepole, for the same reason.

Yes, Jetta does compare with the Cruze because the ride and handling of the Jetta is far superior to the 165hp Cruze, that I feel Jetta is more fun than the Cruze.

Last edited by CrAzY dRiVeR : 24th September 2015 at 13:54.
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Old 24th September 2015, 14:06   #284
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Default re: A Close Look: Fiat Punto Abarth. EDIT: Now launched at Rs. 9.95 lakhs!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandeepmohan View Post
I am pretty sure it is not going to be like the Punto 90. If the Linea T Jet is any indication of what the engine is capable of, the Abarth Punto should be a riot.
I really hope so. I realy want to see this car succeed. This opens up a whole segment in India. But for that to happen the price has to be right.

Quote:
Lol. Should have asked him what FIRE stands for. The answer would have been epic.
I really didnt have the heart to hear anything more from him!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
No, it doesn't. Would prefer the 1.2 TSi anyday against the NA 1.4 Punto. Not because of the tech underneath, but the way it drives. The same reason why the Abarth Punto is right up and above the GT IMO.

The reason why the Polo TSI drives better than the Punto 1.4 is because of the tech. Nothing else!



Quote:
And you seemed to have driven? Anyways -

We have two people on the forum having experienced the Abarth Punto. 1. nkrishnap. 2. sidindica. Both of them only had nice things to say. Also - the reviews are out regarding the performance aspect and it is clearly faster as per all reviews.

Now, if you dont believe any of those reports and would believe only mine - I'm flattered.

No I haven't even seen it let alone drive it. That's why i'm not explicitly comparing it with any other cars, in an absolute manner.

You have stated explicitly that the Polo is Slower, than the Punto, which made me wonder if you have driven it.


Quote:
Capable - yes.
Comparable - Not entirely. There is a significant difference in the performance and timings are already out in different magazine reviews.
Every mag review has stated that the Abarth driven is a pre production version. What guarantee do you have that the same tune/suspension etc is being launched?

Quote:
VW has a 1.4 TSi as well. Mate it with a manual and we do have a direct competitor. Hope they bring it out and we get better options.
Why would it do that? The 1.2 tsi is selling well(considering the price) and has carved a niche for itself, and benefits from the 1.2 rule.

For people who want more, there s the roumored 1.8 tsi. Why bother with the 1.4


Quote:
Yes, Jetta does compare with the Cruze because the ride and handling of the Jetta is far superior to the 165hp Cruze, that I feel Jetta is more fun than the Cruze.
Before ride and handling etc, the cars are compared because they are in the same segment. Would you compare a punto which has 195mm gc with an xuv which has 180?

Vehicles are compared first on size, then on other factors.
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Old 24th September 2015, 14:33   #285
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Default re: A Close Look: Fiat Punto Abarth. EDIT: Now launched at Rs. 9.95 lakhs!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JayD View Post
The reason why the Polo TSI drives better than the Punto 1.4 is because of the tech. Nothing else!
The 1.4 NA FIRE petrol and the 1.4 Tjet in the 145bhp tune are a totally different breed. 1.4 FIRE does a 0-100 is 15.99 secs, while the 1.4 Punto Abarth does the same in 9.41 secs (as per topgear review).

1.2 with all its tech is not coming closer to those figures.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JayD View Post
No I haven't even seen it let alone drive it. That's why i'm not explicitly comparing it with any other cars, in an absolute manner.

You have stated explicitly that the Polo is Slower, than the Punto, which made me wonder if you have driven it.

Every mag review has stated that the Abarth driven is a pre production version. What guarantee do you have that the same tune/suspension etc is being launched?
"Absolute manner", "explicitly", "guarentee" - Can't be answered now. Your choice whether you want to believe the reviews or not. I believe no company would give a pre-production car to journalists and then make the production version worse!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JayD View Post
Why would it do that? The 1.2 tsi is selling well(considering the price) and has carved a niche for itself, and benefits from the 1.2 rule.

For people who want more, there s the roumored 1.8 tsi. Why bother with the 1.4
That "niche" was created because VW was the first mover. All credits to them. But now they have some competition from Ford with the 1.5 DCT and FIAT with the Punto Abarth. I feel the Figo makes the Polo look very overpriced now. Lets see if the sales will remain same.

As for the 1.8 petrol - I'm all for it if it comes at a sensible price. At the estimated 20L prices, it is a totally different segment.

The 1.4 fits perfectly between the 1.2 and 1.8 TSi - and is a direct competition to the Punto Abarth. Is it so hard to see the reasoning?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JayD View Post
Before ride and handling etc, the cars are compared because they are in the same segment. Would you compare a punto which has 195mm gc with an xuv which has 180?

Vehicles are compared first on size, then on other factors.
Compare Safari to Fortuner then.
Compare Jetta to 3 series.
Compare S-Cross to A class.

Size is ONLY ONE of the factors when comparing cars. I'm not sure whether you put this argument just for the sake of an argument or not - but I'm surprised a person of your standards is making such a counter argument.
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