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Old 3rd December 2015, 17:12   #46
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Default Re: Official: Volkswagen recalls 3.24 lakh cars in India over emissions fraud

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Originally Posted by Ironhood View Post
So, just Rs. 32 cr for, at some extent, putting the lives of citizens of a country in danger? Specially at times when the VIP visits to discuss climate change and pollution may cost more than 10s of cr per visit?? I reckon there is more to this.
And tata taxis(indica, sumo) and lorries spewing black smoke like no one business is ok, just because not tested. Not defending VW, but in our country half of these things related to emission%pollution and health checks are sham.
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Old 3rd December 2015, 17:16   #47
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Default Re: Official: Volkswagen recalls 3.24 lakh cars in India over emissions fraud

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Originally Posted by the mole View Post
What will happen to the 1.9 TDI Skoda Laura? I don't see the 1.9 TDI engine in the list of recalls.
The 1.9 TDi used in the Skoda Octavia and of course, the Laura and the previous generation VW Jetta is unaffected.

It belongs to an older VW engine family- which was far more rudimentary compared to the current EA189.

The older engine family in question, is of course- the legendary VW Pumpe Düse.

The Pumpe Duse (a.k.a PD) engines were known for their bulletproof reliability- numerous examples have reached the one million kilometre mark.
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Old 3rd December 2015, 17:51   #48
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Default Re: Official: Volkswagen recalls 3.24 lakh cars in India over emissions fraud

Wow, just Rs. 1,000 per car in fine. If you drive without a fitness certificate, the RTO can fine you up to 10,000 bucks. But to manufacture an 'unfit' car, the fine is merely a 1,000 bucks.

No wonder people get away with such scams in our country:

Quote:
"If we ascertain that the company was selling cars fitted with faulty or substandard quality devices then under section 182 A of Motor Vehicles Act, it could face a penalty of Rs 1,000 per car. The law mandates provision of penalty in such cases," a senior government official told ET.
Source
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Old 3rd December 2015, 18:06   #49
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Default Re: Official: Volkswagen recalls 3.24 lakh cars in India over emissions fraud

Quoting the relevant sections below for everyone's benefit:

Section 182A
182A. Punishment for offences relating to construction and maintenance of vehicles.—Any person who contravenes the provisions of sub-section (3) of section 109, shall be punishable with a fine of one thousand rupees for the first offence and with a fine of five thousand rupees for any subsequent offences."

Section 109
109. General provision regarding construction and maintenance of vehicles.—
(1) Every motor vehicle shall be so constructed and so maintained as to be at all times under the effective control of the person driving the vehicle.
(2) Every motor vehicle shall be so constructed as to have right hand steering control unless it is equipped with a mechanical or electrical signalling device of a prescribed nature.
(3) If the Central Government is of the opinion that it is necessary or expedient so to do in public interest, it may by order published in the Official Gazette, notify that any article or process used by a manufacturer shall conform to such standard as may be specified in that order.

As VW has voluntarily done this, it would interesting to see which in time would constitutes the first offence and which would constitutes the subsequent! If the Government decided to treat offences after, say first batch, as subsequent offences, they are looking a higher damage to bottom line.

But the MV acts needs an overhaul, thats for sure. Make the penalty higher i say.

Rohan

Last edited by RohanDheman : 3rd December 2015 at 18:07.
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Old 3rd December 2015, 19:14   #50
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Default Re: Official: Volkswagen recalls 3.24 lakh cars in India over emissions fraud

My guess is there could be no loss of power or efficiency. The NOx levels are due to a higher compression ratio and the fuel + air mix along with the treatment after the burn. The cheat software was to beat BS VII (or American) levels. This software is also in the Indian engines where we are still in BS IV. When you remove the cheat software (and in case of the 1.6 make changes to the intake system), we are not trying to achieve BS VII. So the loss that we anticipate can to so small that we don't notice.

Point in case are the other engines (1.3, 1.5 and 1.6) from Fiat, Hyundai and others. They are designed to meet BS IV ( or max BS V, where the exhaust will we added with the particulate filter). How come they are below the NOx levels with their current software? The compression ratios of all these engines is above 1:11. Physics is the same for all cars, and at this price point of the cars I don't think VW would not have treated the exhausts different from the ubiquitous MJD or the Hyundai engines. While the engines were (I assume for the sake of argument) not tuned to BS VII with some cheat software. They would be natively be designed with some "regular" software to meet the BS IV requirement.

If you remove the cheat (as BS VII levels) and update to BS IV (or V) then I am not sure if the changes in the re-map would be noticeable. Again, my hypothesis could be wrong too :-) .
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Old 3rd December 2015, 19:24   #51
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Default Re: Official: Volkswagen recalls 3.24 lakh cars in India over emissions fraud

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Originally Posted by Rajeevraj View Post
Looks like this issue is hitting sales badly. In Nov 2015 VW dispatches stood at just 1942 cars. They typically dispatch ~4000 units monthly.

Or have the stopped supply of the diesel cars until the fix is ratified and applied? No point delivering cars and then making them come back after a month.

In the big markets they can handle a drop in sales, but in the Indian market considering their numbers are already low, this can hit them badly. Dealers will be worried.

They certainly haven't stopped the supply of diesel cars,I took the delivery of my Polo highline TDI just last week and more than 7 other cars were readied for delivery the same day so I guess the general public are unaffected by the scandal. And me , well everytime I step inside the car the grin on my face is enough satisfaction for me.
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Old 3rd December 2015, 19:39   #52
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Default Re: Official: Volkswagen recalls 3.24 lakh cars in India over emissions fraud

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They certainly haven't stopped the supply of diesel cars
True. From a dealer (who is reliable), the sales drop is close to 20% in Nov. There are no new discounts in Dec and VW seems pretty defiant (to keep up the brand value), and they are not demonstrating any clink in their armour. Good for those guys who are in the process of selling their cars (naturally, not exiting VW). You can always quote the VW sales are not down!

What I got (and this I need to re-confirm) is that they are delaying the new car deliveries as they new ones are going to come with the software corrected. This is news to me. If there is a change in the engine specs then the site will need to be updated (if the new cars are already fitted with the corrected software). Or the new invoices will need to reflect that. You can't sell a car with wrong specs.
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Old 3rd December 2015, 19:58   #53
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Default Re: Official: Volkswagen recalls 3.24 lakh cars in India over emissions fraud

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Originally Posted by StarScream View Post
This is not true for India. There will be no loss in power.

In the U.S., the cars switched off emissions tech such as diesel particulate filters to improve performance. That stuff isn't used in India anyhow, so there is nothing to switch on or off. Not to mention, our emissions tests aren't as stringent as the U.S. i.e. front wheels running, back wheels stationary etc. so the car can deduce it's being tested.

Frankly, if VW hadn't come clean, we'd have never known. They are just replacing the software with a clean version, not that the "dirty" version did anything here in the first place.
Exactly no one would have ever known, I just hope there is no Dip in power, Also hoping the recall comes after my 2nd service is over by next month.
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Old 3rd December 2015, 20:33   #54
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Default Re: Official: Volkswagen recalls 3.24 lakh cars in India over emissions fraud

The 1.5 and 1.6 TDI engines get a flow transformer plus ECU update and VW believes the cars sold in India doesn't have the cheat device since it meets BS IV norms.

Quote:
Volkswagen Group India wants to clarify its position, the outcome and the way forward on the EA 189 diesel engine topic after its meetings with the Government of India and ARAI (Automotive Research Association of India).

Current position and way forward
Volkswagen Group India has presented its observations, findings and outlines of possible solutions on the EA 189 engines to the Government of India and ARAI. Volkswagen Group India has intimated why it believes that its cars are not equipped with a ‘defeat device’. Furthermore, the findings from the evaluations undertaken by Volkswagen Group India under the observation of ARAI show that the tested cars of the brands Volkswagen, SKODA and Audi are not violating the Bharat Stage IV (BS IV) emission norms in India. To come to a common conclusion on this topic, further meetings with Ministry of Road Transport and Highways will take place.

Voluntary Recall for all cars with EA 189 engines
To be in line with the latest technical updates on the EA 189 diesel engines announced by Volkswagen AG for the European markets, Volkswagen Group India has already announced a voluntary recall of all cars with EA 189 engines in India. Volkswagen Group India will implement technical updates in accordance with the timelines presented to the authorities.

The 2.0-litre engines will get a software update. In the 1.5-litre and 1.6-litre engines, a ‘flow transformer’ will be fitted in front of the air mass sensor. In addition, a software update will also be performed on these engines. The measure for the 1.2-litre engines will be announced shortly.

The first solutions are expected to be implemented from the first quarter of 2016 and will be continued in a step-wise manner. All the customers will be informed directly by the respective brands. The existing software does not affect the handling, technical safety or the roadworthiness of the car. All necessary technical measures will be implemented at no cost to the customers.

Commitment and co-operation
Volkswagen Group India is working hand in hand with the authorities of Government of India and ARAI and will inform regularly about the next steps and the outcome of the discussions. Based on the current situation, Volkswagen Group India will continue the production and sales of the cars with EA 189 engines in India. All technical measures will be implemented as soon as they are available.

Volkswagen Group India remains fully committed to the Indian market and will not deviate from its future plans, investments and launches. Volkswagen Group India has always and will always comply with and follow the laws and regulations of India.? All brands of Volkswagen Group India will work strongly towards regaining the customer confidence and trust.
Statement from Volkswagen Group India
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Old 3rd December 2015, 20:45   #55
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Default Re: Official: Volkswagen recalls 3.24 lakh cars in India over emissions fraud

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Originally Posted by Gannu_1 View Post
The 1.5 and 1.6 TDI engines get a flow transformer plus ECU update and VW believes the cars sold in India doesn't have the cheat device since it meets BS IV norms.
This is confusing. If it does not have the cheat device and meets BS IV norms, why do they need to do a recall and update the software? Is it just to be in line with the European Updates? I thought the European updates were also to remove the cheat software or prevent it from working.

Last edited by Rajeevraj : 3rd December 2015 at 20:47.
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Old 3rd December 2015, 21:32   #56
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Default Re: Official: Volkswagen recalls 3.24 lakh cars in India over emissions fraud

VW is exceeding the limits set by BS-4 also. In best case scenario the NOx levels reported for such cars is 3 times higher then the BS-4 standard of .25g/km. Euro-6 has a limit of .08.
They don't meet BS-lll either which has a limit of .5.
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Old 3rd December 2015, 21:54   #57
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Default Re: Official: Volkswagen recalls 3.24 lakh cars in India over emissions fraud

Could also be, that when they saw it coming, the "fine" amount was probably negotiated first; that being not the only expense during negotiations in India. Then, the figures have been divulged and the come clean act. 32 crores is pocket change. Now, the guv says test all diesels, the NGT says, ban VAG.

What doesn't seem to be changing, is the tendency of a knee jerk reaction to everything. Unless the overall maturity of the nation grows, everything will be a problem, and nothing will seem to be a problem at all!
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Old 4th December 2015, 01:09   #58
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Default Re: Official: Volkswagen recalls 3.24 lakh cars in India over emissions fraud

I am not very familiar with the technical aspects here but the whole 'software update' business is difficult to understand. How does it really help? I mean are VW actually trying to make their cars better by reducing emissions or just making the cars more honest and continue with the same levels of emissions as before? If it is the second option, should we continue to pay a premium for the famed German engineering?
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Old 4th December 2015, 10:02   #59
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Default Re: Official: Volkswagen recalls 3.24 lakh cars in India over emissions fraud

In a layman's (mine and many like me I am sure) , when I get a call I need to go to the nearest VW workshop and get this fix done. This will be free of cost. I am clear upto this part.
But then from all the tech jargon
1) Will my car lose its unique properties of some of the best speed characteristics to the competition , especially the minimal turbo-lag and excellent highway performance ?
2) Will this hit the fuel efficiency ?
3) Will VW also do a pollution check on my vehicle ?
4) If I don't go or rather don't make it , how will the authorities check if my VW is compliant or not ?
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Old 4th December 2015, 10:10   #60
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Default Re: Official: Volkswagen recalls 3.24 lakh cars in India over emissions fraud

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Originally Posted by ambivalent_98 View Post
3) Will VW also do a pollution check on my vehicle ?
4) If I don't go or rather don't make it , how will the authorities check if my VW is compliant or not ?
As per VW,
Quote:
Furthermore, the findings from the evaluations undertaken by Volkswagen Group India under the observation of ARAI show that the tested cars of the brands Volkswagen, SKODA and Audi are not violating the Bharat Stage IV (BS IV) emission norms in India
If this is concurred by ARAI, points 3 and 4 will not be mandated. But in all possibility during your service they will update the EA189 engine which was announced by Volkswagen AG for the European markets also.
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