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Old 3rd December 2015, 09:23   #1
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Default Government to investigate *all* diesel vehicles for emission norm violations

"In the wake of Volkswagen’s voluntary recall of 3.23 lakh cars, the government on Wednesday decided to test all diesel vehicles to check for violations of emission norms in the country in the next six months.

Noting that four carmakers in the country are being investigated at present, Geete said, “Over the next six months, we will carry out checks on emission levels of all diesel passenger vehicles in India.”

“From the end of this month, we will start testing all passenger diesel vehicles in India to estimate whether they have committed emission violations. The process of testing diesel passenger vehicles by ARAI will be completed in six months,” a ministry official said."


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http://www.newindianexpress.com/busi...cle3158579.ece

http://auto.ndtv.com/news/government...-norms-1250198

This is good move and hope they take the environmental concerns seriously, not only in automobile sector, but in other sectors as well.

Last edited by tbppjpr : 3rd December 2015 at 09:29.
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Old 4th December 2015, 07:17   #2
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Default Re: Government to investigate *all* diesel vehicles for emission norm violations

I'm not defending diesel cars here, but why shouldn't they randomly pick and check a few petrol cars too ?

The similar cheat software could be used in petrol cars too.
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Old 4th December 2015, 09:15   #3
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Default Re: Government to investigate *all* diesel vehicles for emission norm violations

Ask the Government to first start regulating the highly polluting lorries, small trucks, autos, buses and diesel gensets - especially those used to provide power backup at buildings and the like. Also, the heavy generators used to dig bore wells.
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Old 4th December 2015, 09:34   #4
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"While the investigation is on, the government has exempted commercial vehicle manufacturers such as Ashok Leyland, Force Motors and Tata from the investigation. They cited the already high levels of emissions in these vehicles would definitely kill the investigators instantly and hence have decided to graciously spare the investigating team and, thereby, the manufacturers"
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Old 4th December 2015, 09:38   #5
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Default Re: Government to investigate *all* diesel vehicles for emission norm violations

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Originally Posted by shankar.balan View Post
Ask the Government to first start regulating the highly polluting lorries, small trucks, autos, buses and diesel gensets - especially those used to provide power backup at buildings and the like. Also, the heavy generators used to dig bore wells.
This is wonderful, when it was about VAG cars, three threads got started, thousands of posts made and people were all over VAG to ban them, sue them and what not. But when Govt shown little bit of sense and seriousness towards the issue by announcing investigation on all the diesel cars, we are complaining about trucks, diesel gensets etc?

Are we really serious about the environment or it was just some hatred about one manufacturer which was shown in those VAG pollution scandal threads?

We can not turn our backs towards the main issues. Environment issues are really serious. There are some claims from people of Govt of India that global warming or other environmental causes are not behind the recent Chennai disaster but reality is that all this is happening because of the man made negative impact on the environment.

Was reading an article by a Himalayan environmentalist Mr Arun Joshi on the recent environment summit conducted at Paris where he raised some valid points. He said all the developed countries will try to convenience that developing countries need to limit their development progress, whereas developing countries will try to defend their fast moving development plans by saying that now it's our turn to exploit natural resources and developed countries don't have any right to stop them after having their turn. Overall it will turn out into just another environmental talk, nothing more.

Look at the China what they have done to themselves in the attempt of quickly getting developed. Even look at Delhi, Honorable courts and NGT have raised serious question marks on dangerously increasing pollution. Situation is same in other major Indian cities.

Prime minister Mr, Narendra Modi claimed during his recent Singapore tour that we are targeting 175 giga watts of power generation from clean and renewable sources like solar, nuclear, wind and biomass with the target of and in turn reduce dependence on coal.

Its high time we wake up and motivate such moves and participate in them with our fullest capacity. I also said in opening post that this step is good move but they should not forget the other pollution generating sources. If they want to take the cars first then let it be. First step is more important than and should be welcomed, it's scope can be widened further. WE should feel proud that atleast our country took the VAG issue in more wider aspect and announced investigation of all diesel cars whereas other so called intellectual countries kept their concerns limited against VAG because they got caught.

Now just hoping that they stick to the announcement seriously, conduct the tests and take some serous actions.

Last edited by tbppjpr : 4th December 2015 at 09:58.
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Old 4th December 2015, 09:39   #6
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Default Re: Government to investigate *all* diesel vehicles for emission norm violations

Come on Guys, give 'em credit were its due. About time they check this out. but yeah why exclude petrol, kerosene and other myriad fuel types that pass for petrol and diesel in this country, may be a holistic approach would involve checking for fuel adulteration too. i am hard pressed to believe that some of these vehicles spewing black brown and white smoke run on petrol or diesel.
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Old 4th December 2015, 12:04   #7
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Default Re: Government to investigate *all* diesel vehicles for emission norm violations

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Originally Posted by tbppjpr View Post
This is wonderful, when it was about VAG cars, three threads got started, thousands of posts made and people were all over VAG to ban them, sue them and what not. But when Govt shown little bit of sense and seriousness towards the issue by announcing investigation on all the diesel cars, we are complaining about trucks, diesel gensets etc?
Relax mate. Nobody is saying that private diesels should not be tested. It is just that the percentage of private diesel vehicles on the roads pan India is quite incredibly small when compared with the commercial private and publicly owned vehicles.

Regarding diesel gensets, a good example is Agra where whenever the electricity goes a cloud of black smoke used to rise from the city because almost every middle class and above household had a separate single cylinder diesel genset. The government tried to clamp down on it, but the electricity situation is such that these remain quite popular.

Basic logic would indicate that if one wants quick results, one should target the greatest contributor to pollution. Commercial vehicles, diesel gensets, etc. if mandatorily required to switch to CNG or other relatively less polluting fuels, would dramatically change the state of particulate pollution within 5 years. Targetting private vehicles on the other hand will yield no drop, because along with greater sales of private diesels, the commercial vehicle sales are also rising.

Finally, private diesel vehicles are almost all on Common Rail tech, with higher BS norm requirements than the commercial vehicles. Forget Diesel gensets, they're still in the stone age.
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Old 4th December 2015, 13:07   #8
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Default Re: Government to investigate *all* diesel vehicles for emission norm violations

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Originally Posted by VeluM View Post
It is just that the percentage of private diesel vehicles on the roads pan India is quite incredibly small when compared with the commercial private and publicly owned vehicles.
Well, let the statistics talk:


Automoile Domestic sales trends

Government to investigate *all* diesel vehicles for emission norm violations-sales01.jpg




Market Share by Volume (FY 2015)

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Market share between Diesel vs Petrol passenger vehicles

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Also look at the picture attached in the opening post which shows which type of vehicles visible in majority in Delhi causing some serious contribution in air pollution of Delhi.

Commercial vehicles primarily run on highways but shockingly its the metro cities where air pollution has crossed alarming limits. Its not only the visible black smoke which is pollution contributor, rather there are many other particulates mixtures which are emitted through passengers cars but not visible through naked eyes.


Sources:

http://www.siamindia.com/statistics....8&pgidtrail=14

http://www.ibef.org/industry/india-automobiles.aspx

http://www.business-standard.com/art...1700822_1.html

Last edited by tbppjpr : 4th December 2015 at 13:11.
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Old 4th December 2015, 13:22   #9
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Default Re: Government to investigate *all* diesel vehicles for emission norm violations

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Originally Posted by tbppjpr View Post
Well, let the statistics talk:
Wow, thanks for that. I admit that I had a completely different (wrong) impression of the sales.

However, when one looks at the consumption it is a different picture altogether.

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelea...x?relid=102799

Hope that helps clarify.
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Old 4th December 2015, 13:41   #10
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Default Re: Government to investigate *all* diesel vehicles for emission norm violations

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Originally Posted by VeluM View Post
However, when one looks at the consumption it is a different picture altogether.

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelea...x?relid=102799

Hope that helps clarify.
Well that also doesn't put the full picture. More fuel consumption doesn't mean more pollution, neither better fuel economy means lesser pollution. Heavy vehicles consume more fuel because of the a lot heavier weight they have to pull. In return they consume more fuel but emit lesser amount of dangerous pollutants like NOx compared to new gen diesel cars which emit far greater NOx compared to commercial vehicles.


Lets have a look at this study:

Diesel cars emit up to four times more toxic pollution than a bus, data reveals

"A modern diesel car pumps out more toxic pollution than a bus or heavy truck, according to new data, a situation described as a “disgrace” by one MEP.

The revelation shows that effective technology to cut nitrogen oxides (NOx) pollution exists, but that car manufacturers are not implementing it in realistic driving conditions.

latest diesel models cars produce at least as much NOx as far heavier buses and trucks.

The issue of NOx pollution, thought to kill 23,500 people a year in the UK alone, gained prominence when VW diesels were discovered to be cheating official US emissions tests. The scandal also led to revelations that the diesels of many car manufacturers produce far more NOx on the road than in EU lab tests, though not via illegal means.

At the Norway Centre for Transport Research, the researchers found “all [12 of] the tested heavy vehicles’ engines have very low emissions of NOx in real traffic” and that emissions had fallen tenfold from the previous models. But the seven diesel cars emitted four times more on average than the trucks and buses.

The Norwegian team concluded: “Test results have shown by effective removal of NOx from the exhaust gases of heavy vehicles that it is possible with Euro 6 engines. This means that it is technically possible to achieve the same positive results for new generations of cars with diesel engines.” They also found that in cold weather the NOx from diesel cars soared to 11 time official levels.

The Transport for London research compared nine diesel cars, ranging from the super-mini class up to SUV, against three HGVs and one LGV. The NOx emitted from the cars was similar to that from the heavier trucks though one car – the smallest diesel tested – produced more than double the 12-tonne lorry and the same as the 40-tonne vehicle."


Here is the link extracted from the above article: https://www.toi.no/environment-and-c...3388-1314.html


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Figure 1: Comparison between limit values from EUs type approval regulations (black clouds) to emissions in “real life” city traffic from the average Euro 6 diesel passenger car. NOx, PM and CO2 emission when using the Helsinki city cycle. Measured at +23 °C (red clouds) and -7 °C (blue clouds). The size of the red and blue clouds indicate the difference in emission from the emission in the type approval test (NEDC).




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Car = 0.35 g/km NOx
Bus = 0.12 g/km NOx

Figure 2: New heavy vehicles with Euro VI approved diesel engines have very low emission of all types of local emissions. NOx emission from new passenger cars with Euro 6 diesel engines under demanding city driving conditions is still a challenge for urban air quality. The emissions shown are typical for demanding city-driving for passenger cars and city-buses, respectively.

Last edited by tbppjpr : 4th December 2015 at 13:58.
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Old 4th December 2015, 14:20   #11
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Default Re: Government to investigate *all* diesel vehicles for emission norm violations

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Originally Posted by tbppjpr View Post
Well that also doesn't put the full picture. More fuel consumption doesn't mean more pollution, neither better fuel economy means lesser pollution. Heavy vehicles consume more fuel because of the a lot heavier weight they have to pull. In return they consume more fuel but emit lesser amount of dangerous pollutants like NOx compared to new gen diesel cars which emit far greater NOx compared to commercial vehicles.
While this is good information, these are Euro 6 studies in London/UK. This does Not apply to India.

The majority of our heavy vehicles are not new, and do not conform to Euro 4. In today's newspaper in fact it is stated that private buyers of commercial vehicles prefer to buy them outside Euro 4 zones in India.

Every single goods carrier in India is overloaded. If there are exceptions, they are so few as to be negligible practically and statistically.

Also, the sheer quantum of fuel consumed by commercial vehicles is the primary factor along with their higher pollution levels in India.

How many times have we seen trucks struggling on highways, up slopes, belching out black exhaust.
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Old 4th December 2015, 17:21   #12
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Default Re: Government to investigate *all* diesel vehicles for emission norm violations

While we know NOx is an issue. CO2 from Petrol was also reported to be high in some. They might also want to do that next. All, in all, they just need to do their job all over again, which means they should have anyway done it.
Wicked: VW is probably the best buy now, at-least you won't be surprised!
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Old 4th December 2015, 18:29   #13
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Default Re: Government to investigate *all* diesel vehicles for emission norm violations

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“From the end of this month, we will start testing all passenger diesel vehicles in India to estimate whether they have committed emission violations. The process of testing diesel passenger vehicles by ARAI will be completed in six months,” a ministry official said."
Illogical people run most of the shows in our country! Why only passenger diesel vehicles? Because everyone is scared to touch commercial / cargo diesel vehicles? Or do trucks and buses run on a pure mix of Lactogen diluted in rose nectar, and all they give out are basket-fulls of love?

It is always easier to attack the soft target than the right one! Always! We can make all the cars in Delhi-NCR run on pure hydrogen, still, people will continue to get sick because of ill-maintained, overloaded, poison spewing trucks fueled with God knows what!

How hard can it be to have proper Government controlled (not approved!) emission check centers? Also to ensure that the fuel available at every filling station in the country is unadulterated? And make sure that the offending vehicles do not get back on the road till they actually meet the emission norms?
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Old 5th December 2015, 11:27   #14
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Default Re: Government to investigate *all* diesel vehicles for emission norm violations

What does this entail? That PUC will have to be carried mandatorily?
Even if one has a PUC, the testing will be done?
This is for all sold vehicles, or is this to be done at manufacturer level?

In any case, I think this the first move that doesn't seem nonsensical.
Keep your vehicle good, it wont pollute, drive without any issues. Why the worry? Why just diesels? I hope this is done for ALL wheeled vehicles on the road. Use the PUC!

Just hope it doesn't become a gypping mechanism.
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Old 15th August 2017, 12:23   #15
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Default Re: Government to investigate *all* diesel vehicles for emission norm violations

Is diesel-gate scandal about to unearth in India too? Diesel Vehicles found breaching emission levels in India too.

International Centre for Automotive Technology (ICAT) and US-based International Council on Clean Transportation (ICCT) tested 2015 models of Mahindra XUV5OO and Hyundai i20 (both petrol and diesel) for NOx levels while being driven in real world conditions. They found out that only the petrol i20 exhaled NOx within the prescribed limits. Both the diesel cars emitted higher than permitted levels of NOx.

Quote:
While the tests show that the NOx emissions from the XUV were 25-65 times higher than that of the i20 petrol, it is not conclusive that SUVs cause more pollution than sedans or hatchbacks. The XUV draws power from a 2.2-litre diesel engine while a 1.2-litre petrol engine powers the i20. Calling SUVs more polluting will be fair only if the same engine is put to the test in an SUV and a sedan/hatchback
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The onus is now on the government to make hybrid cars more attractive than diesel/petrol cars so that by the time we become an all-electric market, we can save the environment as much as possible.
link

Last edited by volkman10 : 15th August 2017 at 12:26.
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