Go Back   Team-BHP > BHP India > The Indian Car Scene


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 1st September 2010, 15:35   #76
Distinguished - BHPian
 
FlyingSpur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Bay Area, CA
Posts: 3,937
Thanked: 1,331 Times
Default

Some of the Caddys don't even have a separate brake and turn indicator arrangement. The Escalade, for example, in which the whole thing simply blinks red when you're indicating a turn, and lit a dim red when your driving lamps are on.
FlyingSpur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st September 2010, 17:57   #77
BHPian
 
teknophobia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Ahmedabad
Posts: 319
Thanked: 22 Times
Default

My 2007 indica turbo has both reverse and rear fogs in pairs, so I think Tata has been changing the designs once in a while.
teknophobia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd September 2010, 14:00   #78
BHPian
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: BLR / NGO
Posts: 285
Thanked: 163 Times
Default

Just a point in case.
Chevy Spark earlier had the reverse lights on the bumper (2 round ones).
This caused issues of the visibility of the light to the car in the rear if he were in close proximity (I cannot see the lights low on the bumper of the car in front if I am too close to him).

Therefore, they went on to integrate the reverse lights in the tail lamp cluster (changed from previous mickey mouse lights to currently redesgned ones.)
Purely for safety & visibility issues

Name:  oldspark.jpg
Views: 2313
Size:  9.0 KB

Name:  newspark.JPG
Views: 2207
Size:  17.5 KB
karpusv is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 24th May 2017, 10:12   #79
Newbie
 
Parag_pv's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Kannur
Posts: 10
Thanked: 6 Times
Default Re: Why do some cars have a single reversing light???

Sorry for digging up an old thread.

I own a 2015 VW Vento 1.6 HL and I'm fed up with people commenting on the "fused" reverse light of my German engineered automobile (As they mock it). I went through this entire thread and some other online resources and I have some data to share. Hopefully this will clarify some doubts regarding this single reverse light decision taken by leading manufactures. I'll be focusing on Volkswagen and Tata motors in particular as I have a VW and Cars from Tata received the most number of posts regarding this issue.

1. I saw a lot of posts commenting on Tata motor's decision to skip a bulb and questions on how a company is going to make profits by skipping just a single bulb. Let's approach this in a broader perspective. I went through a few e-commerce sites in search of an OEM reverse light bulb for the Indica/Indigo. The closest match was about 400 INR (Price may vary). Note that LEDs and cheaper alternatives are also available. The number of cars sold by Tata motors in the year 2016 to April 2017 is 1,53,151 (IMV Dept). There has been fluctuations in sales over the years but consider an average of 1,50,000 per year. Doing the simple math, we can see that Tata can save upto 6 Crores INR just by skipping a single bulb ,give or take a few Lakhs. The second generation Indica (V2) was introduced in 2008 and I've seen other posts claiming that Tata cars of this era lacks the second rear reverse light. So over a course of almost 10 years, Tata saves a grand total of about 60 Crores INR (rough estimate). Now that you look at in this perspective, it's a huge profit. Makes sense, doesn't it? This is from a company that made the decision to use only 3 bolts instead of 4 on the Nano's wheels for an effective profit in the long run (Refer Nat Geo documentary on the Nano).
The numbers above might change according to sources and the total number of vehicles sold are passenger vehicles and not commercial vehicles. The point is that a large scale production company can make a huge profit by skipping something as simple as a bulb or a screw. Please don't bombard me with criticisms regarding the numbers.

2. About Volkswagen, The Vento is truly a no nonsense car. Volkswagen did not skip a bulb like Tata. Instead, you have one reversing light and one rear fog light. You activate this by pulling the light control knob to the outer most position and engaging the reverse gear. Voila, now you have both reversing lights. That's your answer for annoying comments on German engineering. I'm currently researching on a way to turn on the fog light along with the reverse light when the reverse gear in engaged.

If you ask me why they do not have separate reversing and rear fog lights (in pairs), I do not have a solid answer for you. It's mostly probable that VW made a similar decision as Tata did (refer point 1) but on a more practical scale by not skipping a bulb. Or maybe it's the hassles associated with designing and integrating a secondary light in the car's body. Mercedes faced a similar challenge when they brought the 4x4 G wagon to America. Some of the roof mounted LEDs where illegal in America. Mercedes did not bother to remove the LEDs and redesign the roof mounts. Instead, they kept everything as it was but did not supply buttons for the LEDs. A much simpler solution than spending money on redesigning and making amendments.

Last edited by Parag_pv : 24th May 2017 at 10:41.
Parag_pv is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 24th May 2017, 10:48   #80
BHPian
 
avira_tk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 669
Thanked: 643 Times
Default Re: Why do some cars have a single reversing light???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Parag_pv View Post
.
If you ask me why they do not have separate reversing and rear fog lights, I do not have a solid answer for you. It's mostly probable that VW made a similar decision as Tata did (refer point 1) but on a more practical scale by not skipping a bulb. Or maybe it's the hassles associated with designing and integrating a secondary light somewhere else in the car's body.
Most cars sold in Europe come a single inadequate rear light and an irritating rear fog light. We have a Bolero at home, with two solid rear lights that make reversing a breeze. This isn't German engineering just a way to comply legally, ARAI should have made two reverse lights compulsory. The Fiesta and Punto , both have a single light, these manufactures should learn from Maruti, the wagon r for one has really bright lights for reversing.
avira_tk is online now   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 24th May 2017, 11:30   #81
BHPian
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Gurgaon
Posts: 267
Thanked: 595 Times
Default Re: Why do some cars have a single reversing light???

It should not matter if single reversing light or double, as long as it is bright enough to illuminate rear space for easy reversing. What I don't like is the way single reversing lights are incorporated at the rear of a car. I mean, look at I20 active, it looks horrible in an otherwise stunningly beautiful car.
Nav-i-gator is online now   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 24th May 2017, 13:20   #82
BHPian
 
norhog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: mumbai/ Kolkata
Posts: 149
Thanked: 108 Times
Default

Reversing light is only for warning and not to illuminate the reversing area.
norhog is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 24th May 2017, 13:44   #83
Senior - BHPian
 
dark.knight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: India
Posts: 1,115
Thanked: 2,960 Times
Default Re: Why do some cars have a single reversing light???

Quote:
Originally Posted by norhog View Post
Reversing light is only for warning and not to illuminate the reversing area.
How do you say so? I must've driven a minimum of a dozen different car models from almost every known brand that is sold here and I can vouch for the fact that a strong pair of reversing lights are singularly the most useful things during reverse, one may not even need cameras or parking sensors (I certainly don't) but the light is highly essential.

Here's what scenarios I've faced at random parking locations (and I've thanked the 2 reversing lights for it) :

- Parking in a society garage which just lost power (hence no lights) > The high mounted dual reverse lamps helped me see both ends of the spectrum clearly and since the light spread bounces off the wall, it even helped me judge the distance remaining to the precision of within an inch.

- Reverse parallel parking leftwards, the high curb is to the left, a tree is to the back and another automobile to the front, suffice to say I had about 6 inches of additional room to play with and I parked with a single motion thanks to the left RVM, the left reverse light (without which the curb view would've been pitch dark) and a good light throw to the back with which I could judge the extremities to the inch.

- Reversing my way out of a 300 foot long narrow lane during a rainy night because of roadblock ahead > the 2 lights blasted away at both the lane ends and carefully, at under 10 kmph I managed to back out without brushing any vehicle.

The reverse lights are for driver's visual aid first, letting others know about the reverse action is secondary. India is never seen as a car market with its own necessities, Europe has fog, we don't (except for certain areas in the north during winters only).. rear fog light may be optional, but it is certainly no excuse to cut out one reverse light. I'm not talking of any brand in particular but any car with DRL's and single white light source at back is not a car made for India. Europe and America do not have the concept of "power-cuts" and "street light failures" 99.99% of the time, India has it all the time, specially during rains and a good light source all-round is your best friend when driving, it is as much a safety enhancement as anything else possibly can be.

I for one do not find such reduction or cutting short of essential driver aids even one bit amusing.
dark.knight is offline   (7) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 24th May 2017, 15:57   #84
BHPian
 
norhog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: mumbai/ Kolkata
Posts: 149
Thanked: 108 Times
Default

They are called reverse warning lights not reversing head lights or reversing area illuminating lights.

What you describe as helping you at night is just a coincidence a by product rather than the actual functionality.

1. Why do cars have one reverse light if it is meant for illumination of area?
2. Why are the lights low powered as compared to headlights? They could have been a light of same illuminating power as head light.
3. Why is the lens of reverse lights, if what you say it functions as, obscure/ translucent or a lens that diffuses the light not makes a beam.?
4. Why is there no proper control of the throw of light by a specially designed reflector.?

So even at night the red lights provides illumination so would you say they are also for illuminating the rear of the vehicle?

Last edited by GTO : 24th May 2017 at 18:06. Reason: Strictly no personal attacks or rude posts on Team-BHP. Keep it cool, buddy
norhog is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 24th May 2017, 16:31   #85
BHPian
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: india
Posts: 108
Thanked: 132 Times
Default Re: Why do some cars have a single reversing light???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Parag_pv View Post
.....//I saw a lot of posts commenting on Tata motor's decision to skip a bulb and questions on how a company is going to make profits by skipping just a single bulb. ......//
What you say is essentially correct, but not on the way you have described.

In a batch production assembly line product costing involves lot many factors besides just the BOM. The light bulb that retails at Rs 400 would cost perhaps 1/10th on OEM contract. So the savings just on reduced BOM would be insignificant specially for a low cost item like a reversing bulb.

The real savings would come from a lighter SCM, reduction of assy line operations such storage, labour, additional wiring, bodywork etc.

And certainly it wont be as high as Rs 6 crore but still good enough to register with the bean counters who usually have their way in such marginal matters.
drive_factor is offline   (3) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 25th May 2017, 01:20   #86
BHPian
 
AutoNoob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: NCR
Posts: 208
Thanked: 207 Times
Default Re: Why do some cars have a single reversing light???

Quote:
Originally Posted by norhog View Post
They are called reverse warning lights not reversing head lights or reversing area illuminating lights.
Quote:
Originally Posted by norhog View Post
Reversing light is only for warning and not to illuminate the reversing area.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dark.knight View Post
How do you say so?.... I for one do not find such reduction or cutting short of essential driver aids even one bit amusing.
I am not sure about other markets, but as per Indian regulations (AIS-008 revision 1, clause 2.7.21) :

"Reversing lamp" means the lamp used to illuminate the road to the rear of the vehicle and to warn other road users that the vehicle is reversing or about to reverse.

Now, as far as one or two reversing lights are concerned, a minimum performance level is mandatory (AIS-012 Part 7). Now it's upto the manufacturers what strategy they adopt. Obviously cost effectiveness is also key factor but not the only factor.

I hope this clarifies some doubts.

Last edited by AutoNoob : 25th May 2017 at 01:25. Reason: added links for standards
AutoNoob is offline   (4) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 25th May 2017, 06:58   #87
Newbie
 
Parag_pv's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Kannur
Posts: 10
Thanked: 6 Times
Default Re: Why do some cars have a single reversing light???

Quote:
Originally Posted by directinjection View Post
As rightly pointed out by rks, the reverse light is also meant to illuminate the area behind the car so that the driver can see things behind and avoid hitting them. That's why, the reverse light is always plain and not coloured. Also, for the same reason, the bulb used is always a high wattage bulb (usually 21 watt).
Quote:
Originally Posted by norhog View Post
2. Why are the lights low powered as compared to headlights? They could have been a light of same illuminating power as head light.
3. Why is the lens of reverse lights, if what you say it functions as, obscure/ translucent or a lens that diffuses the light not makes a beam.?
4. Why is there no proper control of the throw of light by a specially designed reflector.?

Norhog,

The reverse lights are not low powered. Refer the post by direct injection. The reverse lights are the most powerful lights in the rear light assembly of the car. But you're trying to compare rear lights with headlights, they are designed for absolutely different scenarios. Headlights are designed to illuminate the road in front of you while you travel at high speeds or around corners. Modern cars illuminate the roads from 160 to 200 feet. It'll be near impossible to travel at that speeds in reverse gear. The normal use case scenario of a reverse gear is while you park.

That is why they are not colored(red tint in VW) and is of high wattage. The light cover being translucent is true because it helps in diffusing the light beam rather than throwing the beam at the driver behind you, essentially blinding him (note, rear lights mostly are high mounted). If they were designed like headlights, the cost of design and implementation would go up and you'll end up shooting a light beam from the rear of your car that'll blind everyone behind you. The current design of rear reverse lights are sufficient to see the road and other obstructions clearly at low speeds. But, I do agree with your first point that a pair of rear reversing lights are a necessity.

Last edited by ampere : 25th May 2017 at 08:01. Reason: Formatted post
Parag_pv is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 25th May 2017, 18:37   #88
BHPian
 
norhog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: mumbai/ Kolkata
Posts: 149
Thanked: 108 Times
Default

Dear Mr Parag
I do agree to your points as it being the most powerful light in that light cluster. But it is just not created to illuminate the reversing area. Not designed to.
In your reply itself is the hint to this.
If not headlights lights like the fog lights can be given? No?
Also regarding blinding.who can you blind at parking speed, and even if it is it may not be as hazardous as blinding the driver on a two lane road coming towards you.
I don't have a owners manual, but some one here can see. It states it is a reverse warning light.
Also regarding the color , well some American cars have the same red lights used as tail lights, blink as indicators. No orange or amber.
norhog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th May 2017, 18:59   #89
BHPian
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: calcutta
Posts: 49
Thanked: 30 Times
Default

Norhog,

Regarding reversing light, the main purpose is to illuminate along with to serve a warning to other road users. Now coming to your point why is it for illumination purpose and not warning, you would see that mainly European cars, or rather of decent, starting from Renault Kwid to Volkswagen, all have the single reversing light to the left. That is because in a left hand driving country, thats where a driver would see back from the steering. Now why it's not modified for India, offcourse we have the fixed rules of illumination etc due to which the manufacturers can bypass common sense and aesthetics.
sbanerjee is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 25th May 2017, 20:36   #90
BHPian
 
AutoNoob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: NCR
Posts: 208
Thanked: 207 Times
Default Re: Why do some cars have a single reversing light???

Quote:
Originally Posted by norhog View Post
But it is just not created to illuminate the reversing area. Not designed to.... I don't have a owners manual, but some one here can see. It states it is a reverse warning light.
I feel you missed my earlier post, therefore quoting below. Also, whatever the owner manual may say (as manufacturer may try to be over cautious, to avoid any claim), but it has to meet the regulatory requirement which says "to illuminate the road", atleast in Indian context (I am too lazy to check EU ECE standards).
Quote:
Originally Posted by AutoNoob View Post
I am not sure about other markets, but as per Indian regulations (AIS-008 revision 1, clause 2.7.21) :

"Reversing lamp" means the lamp used to illuminate the road to the rear of the vehicle and to warn other road users that the vehicle is reversing or about to reverse.

Now, as far as one or two reversing lights are concerned, a minimum performance level is mandatory (AIS-012 Part 7). Now it's upto the manufacturers what strategy they adopt. Obviously cost effectiveness is also key factor but not the only factor.

I hope this clarifies some doubts.
AutoNoob is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Ever wondered why Jap cars are light, American cars heavy? etc etc.. v12 The International Automotive Scene 44 31st July 2010 19:45
some light glowing in dash - dont know why rajivanoj Technical Stuff 13 18th December 2008 11:50
Low mileage, less pickup and judder while reversing, what can be the issue here? kaushik_s Technical Stuff 40 3rd October 2008 22:14
Knocking/Crunching noise on reversing at an angle abhi182 Technical Stuff 6 11th March 2008 14:16
Single Reverse Light X-Machine Modifications & Accessories 5 12th August 2007 10:41


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 14:38.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks