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Old 18th December 2015, 14:17   #151
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Default Re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

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Originally Posted by Ragavsr View Post
http://m.timesofindia.com/city/delhi...w/45802530.cms



Dust is responsible for the majority (53%) of all particulate pollution in Delhi while vehicles overall contribute just 6% of particulate emissions.

Both the Kejriwal Govt. and the NGT have been trying to cover up their inefficiency and incapability in cleaning up the roads and taking actio n against the real estate companies which are the second largest source of dust.

Burning of crop residues in neughbouring states and the particulate pollution from industries surrounding Delhi are the source for the remaining particulate emissions.

Before someone questions the genuinity of the facts, this is from a report submitted to the Honorable Supreme Court by the Ministry of Environment and Forests.

The solution is cleaning up dust from the roads, controlling the real estate lobby and relocating industrues surrounding Delhi and not banning vehicles of any sort or this dumb odd even formula.

Absolutely True. Entire Noida, Greater Noida, Faridabad, Gurgaon , Sonipat is full of excavated lands which were supposed to done with construction 5 years back, but lying idle because Builder and Govt. nexus is just not working. Tons of dust fly in the environment day and night. But NO action has been taken to curb the menace of Builders Lobby.
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Old 18th December 2015, 14:30   #152
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Default re: Supreme Court bans registration of diesel cars over 2,000 cc in Delhi & NCR:EDIT lifted with 1% cess

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Originally Posted by palsaumik View Post
My brother works with Bosch and I have heard him say that Bosch GmBH claims that diesel is cleaner than petrol. I have no data to substantiate this but if this is actually so, then why all this fuss?
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Originally Posted by batterylow View Post
Less CO2, yes.
But at the cost of more particulate matter.
Source
Actually this article a decade old. Not only CO but PM also is at par with Petrol in Euro 6. Diesel is much advanced now with Euro 6. The particulate matter is getting meaner & meaner and at par with petrol. There are host of emission control devices in Diesel that does this work and the injection systems came a long way. Both Petrol & Diesel cars have PM emission limits of 0.005g/km. Bosch has a major stake in this because 80% of the Diesel cars use the engine management and CRDi system from Bosch. That's how your brother's statement is obvious.

https://www.dieselnet.com/standards/eu/ld.php

If India moves to BS IV countrywide by 2017 as seen in news, that itself is a massive cut down on Diesel emissions. Actually, much goes to fuel quality as well. The sulphur content in the diesel is responsible for majority of the particulate matter emissions. BS III has 350ppm whereas BS IV fuel should have 50ppm. BS II had 500ppm.

https://www.iocl.com/products/dieselspecifications.pdf

Hope this helps!

Last edited by Pam81 : 18th December 2015 at 14:31.
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Old 18th December 2015, 15:02   #153
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Default Re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

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Originally Posted by napster1311 View Post
Absolutely True. Entire Noida, Greater Noida, Faridabad, Gurgaon , Sonipat is full of excavated lands which were supposed to done with construction 5 years back, but lying idle because Builder and Govt. nexus is just not working. Tons of dust fly in the environment day and night. But NO action has been taken to curb the menace of Builders Lobby.
You are right. Government is not doing anything about it. However, NGT and Supreme Court have stepped in and they shall be able to make Government take some action.

Remember, Delhi Government was not taking any action in converting the public bus fleet to CNG. It was only after SC deadline that they came into action and implemented the rule. That's how the politicians work here. They will stick to the current malpractices as long as they can as most of these malpractices happen because they are hand in glove with the culprits. The Notorious buses of Blue Line running that time were owned by the politicians. Even 15 years rule was forced by SC and that how the 40's Harley Davidson modified Phatphats were phased out. Rome was not built in a day and neither is the current pollution crisis. All we need is some positive steps to curb this menace and it will happen only by force. That is the only way we work. All other positive measures will find multiple roadblocks in guise of opposition and what not.

NGT imposed ban on few construction sites on golf course extension road in Gurgaon and all under construction buildings were covered with green cloth the very next day. Now I heard that they are planning to make local JE accountable if builders do not comply and he will be fined too. This will definitely bring positive change.

I hope they even start carrying out periodic inspection visits in operational buildings to see if all the pollution control measures are in place. Hefty fine will ensure that RWAs will comply.

Again, as Rome was not built in a day, air will not get cleaned in a day. It will take time. Some positive steps towards achieving it is required and Government will never take those steps unless they are forced to do so. They need to be forced out of their comfort zones to act otherwise their office chair is best place to be in.
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Old 18th December 2015, 15:44   #154
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Default re: Supreme Court bans registration of diesel cars over 2,000 cc in Delhi & NCR:EDIT lifted with 1% cess

Very smart! How not having a big diesel in your portfolio suddenly becomes an advantage.

Luxury with Responsibility

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Old 18th December 2015, 16:25   #155
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Default re: Supreme Court bans registration of diesel cars over 2,000 cc in Delhi & NCR:EDIT lifted with 1% cess

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Very smart! How not having a big diesel in your portfolio suddenly becomes an advantage.
This make me wonder if this make Safaris, Scorpio, XUV and Innova more luxurious than Volvos.
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Old 18th December 2015, 17:11   #156
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Default re: Supreme Court bans registration of diesel cars over 2,000 cc in Delhi & NCR:EDIT lifted with 1% cess

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Very smart! How not having a big diesel in your portfolio suddenly becomes an advantage.

Luxury with Responsibility

Attachment 1451471
Indeed, seems that Volvo can siphon off the benefit, who would have thought a month back Volvo's 2000cc engine could be a game changer in India. Since Delhi and NCR has high demand for diesel premium SUV, Volvo would be the only choice for most , considering the fact other company would take time to develop new engine or tweak the existing ones.
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Old 18th December 2015, 17:20   #157
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Default re: Supreme Court bans registration of diesel cars over 2,000 cc in Delhi & NCR:EDIT lifted with 1% cess

Having hefty entry taxes, odd / even rule etc are deterrents to a certain extent only. But I believe nobody is doing any long term planning for curbing the pollution menace. In our country the immediate reaction of people including me will be to find a way to overcome the rule than to follow it. That seals the fate, for eg after sometime people will get used to the hefty entry taxes. Odd even rule will be flouted by buying 2 cars, registering as yellow board etc. Also we do not have enough transparency to track if the money collected through additional taxes on diesel vehicles is used to work towards reducing pollution or is ending up as some useless subsidy for some ridiculous schemes. This knee jerk reactions may contribute to a small extent, like a drop in the ocean, but we need strategists and members from scientific community to come together and find a realistic solution and enlightened citizens to follow the rules. It may or may not help by banning diesel vehicles and such, but we ourselves can start in our small way by way of self enforcement like plastic usage restriction, reducing water usage, avoid littering, segregating waste, use public transport, use clean fuel, control power usage (even at places we don't pay directly for it), switch to clean fuel etc etc. This will be a long list and we can keep on adding. Bottom-line is that we need to help ourselves rather than expecting someone to solve all our issues. Of course, we would need some programs from Govt/Authorities/ Courts etc for direction, funding and to get started in an organized way. Let us pledge to do it our way and teach our children as well. That I believe, will definitely go a long way than all these short term solutions. This may sound very philosophical, but this is the way to go.
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Old 18th December 2015, 17:21   #158
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Default re: Supreme Court bans registration of diesel cars over 2,000 cc in Delhi & NCR:EDIT lifted with 1% cess

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Very smart! How not having a big diesel in your portfolio suddenly becomes an advantage.

Luxury with Responsibility
Volvo most definitely has a smart bunch of people doing their advertising .
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Old 18th December 2015, 17:24   #159
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Default re: Supreme Court bans registration of diesel cars over 2,000 cc in Delhi & NCR:EDIT lifted with 1% cess

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Originally Posted by Pam81 View Post
Not only CO but PM also is at par with Petrol in Euro 6. Diesel is much advanced now with Euro 6. The particulate matter is getting meaner & meaner and at par with petrol.
Only on paper. Their real life NOX and PM emissions are way beyond what they claim. In fact car makers have gone on record to say that their diesel engines will not be able to meet Euro 6 norms and want a "conformity factor" of 1.7 to comply with Euro 6 norms.

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-new...ssions-targets

http://www.airqualitynews.com/2015/0...l-above-limit/

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/auto/st.../1/490469.html

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/2...t-the-vehicles

Last edited by Astleviz : 18th December 2015 at 17:26.
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Old 18th December 2015, 18:43   #160
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Default re: Supreme Court bans registration of diesel cars over 2,000 cc in Delhi & NCR:EDIT lifted with 1% cess

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post

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Volvo S60 D4 2.0 Diesel was the most polluting diesel car as tested by the ADAC (Europe's largest motoring organization) wherein they tested 79 different "Euro 6 compliant" cars as per the WLTC standard. In-fact it fared worse than the 3.0 TD Macan and Audi A8.

Supreme Court bans registration of diesel cars over 2,000 cc in Delhi & NCR:EDIT lifted with 1% cess-adac_nox_test.jpg

Source:
http://www.theguardian.com/environme...ons-tests-show

Similar findings were reported by ICCT where Volvo's emissions in real life conditions were over 14.6 times the limit.
http://www.theicct.org/news/press-re...el-cars-new-eu
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Old 18th December 2015, 19:04   #161
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Default re: Supreme Court bans registration of diesel cars over 2,000 cc in Delhi & NCR:EDIT lifted with 1% cess

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Originally Posted by Jose.solorider View Post
Indeed, seems that Volvo can siphon off the benefit, who would have thought a month back Volvo's 2000cc engine could be a game changer in India. Since Delhi and NCR has high demand for diesel premium SUV, Volvo would be the only choice for most , considering the fact other company would take time to develop new engine or tweak the existing ones.
Chill, currently the ban is only for three months and only in NCR. This won't make Volvo's engine a game changer in India and it won't make 1968 cc Yeti a it seeking SUV. None is developing a new engine for such a small market.
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Old 18th December 2015, 19:06   #162
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Default re: Supreme Court bans registration of diesel cars over 2,000 cc in Delhi & NCR:EDIT lifted with 1% cess

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Originally Posted by Astleviz View Post
Only on paper. Their real life NOX and PM emissions are way beyond what they claim. In fact car makers have gone on record to say that their diesel engines will not be able to meet Euro 6 norms and want a "conformity factor" of 1.7 to comply with Euro 6 norms.
It is not yet confirmed. Real world emissions tests are coming in Jan 1 2016 and for one full year it is going to be monitored by the expert committee. The law might get bit relaxed but ultimately, Euro 6 is heading toward equal emission regulations on both petrol & diesel. There's tremendous development is going on Diesel engines for emission compliance. Obviously, the NEDC had lots of flaws and that's why RDE is coming into picture. As this gets implemented, the type approval process is going to be stricter.

It is true that there's a wide gap at present because test cycles never represent true picture of the actual drive conditions. Due to recent climate discussions & VW scandal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astleviz View Post
Volvo S60 D4 2.0 Diesel was the most polluting diesel car as tested by the ADAC (Europe's largest motoring organization) wherein they tested 79 different "Euro 6 compliant" cars as per the WLTC standard. In-fact it fared worse than the 3.0 TD Macan and Audi A8.
I would like to highlight the Mazda Skyactiv-D engine for it's phenomenal engineering to reduce emissions and improve efficiency. It is listed as second from bottom in the list of cars mentioned in your post. Clean Diesel is possible with innovations. I do have a pdf of the results from a public source. Will try to attach that.


Sources:


http://www.mazda.com/en/innovation/t...iv/skyactiv-d/

http://www.popsci.com/cars/article/2...-diesel-engine

While real-world emissions tests are coming, though it is going to be very tough for auto makers it is also good for all people as the emissions will not be measured on chassis-dyno alone but have elements of real driving in real traffic etc. Even the engine development consultant AVL came up with a rear mounted tester as shown here in this article.

https://www.avl.com/real-driving-emissions-rde-

For many months, I wish how nice it would be if I have a camera attached in my car that shows the emissions from tail-pipe under different scenarios. May be worth a try as DIY when I can.
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Old 20th December 2015, 00:52   #163
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Default re: Supreme Court bans registration of diesel cars over 2,000 cc in Delhi & NCR:EDIT lifted with 1% cess

have you read the recent application that Elon Musk and Co. have sent to the Californian authorities? The gist of what they have said is very orthogonal to the current thought process and in my view a very positive and practical approach. The article can be read here,

http://www.cnet.com/news/elon-musk-o...ay-it-forward/

What a thought and how practical! I guess the people in control of affairs here should get inspired by this. Why start this whole ban/tax exercise? People bought into diesel cars not because there was something innately attractive about it. It just made it more sensible to buy it (from many angles, not a few maybe).

Rather than debating that cars are not the only polluters, there are the pumps, the towers etc. the focus should move towards providing a better, cleaner and cheaper alternative to diesel and then all this force around diesel would not be needed.

Imagine a situation where you have a 120 bhp electric car, same size and feature set, that charges in 3 hours and can do 600 kms in a single full charge and costs 20% more than is petrol and 30% more than its diesel alternative. Now we don't need to argue that electricity is got from burning coal etc (the premise is that its all clean energy all the way down, somehow). Would you not be willing to buy the Electric variant? I guess there is goodness if people, if they are given real,useful alternatives. Environment awareness is in all of us the consumer who buy all different kinds of cars, and we all live in the fumes that our cars emit. Not just some judges that care, but all of us do. Given a means to make a living people tend to do as much good as they can, and we don't need to be forced to make decision that are sensible, but again as long as you can really afford it.

This whole reaction is damage control that also comes with collateral damage on the psyche and economy. What has been damaged in more than 2 decades can't be fixed in a day. Its like making a giant ice maker taking it to the poles and start to build the polar ice caps since we lost some fraction in the last few decades. It doesn't help. It only makes a mockery of our maturity to handle a crisis. Environmental or otherwise!
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Old 20th December 2015, 02:32   #164
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Default re: Supreme Court bans registration of diesel cars over 2,000 cc in Delhi & NCR:EDIT lifted with 1% cess

I honestly believe that the supreme court has gone the wrong way. SUVs have traditionally and always been diesel powered. Remember the old Tata Sierra, Tata Estate, Tata Sumo, Mahindra marshall etc. All these were diesel powered right from when they were launched. And there's good reason as well, it's absolutely illogical to have a vehicle weighing close to 2 tonnes powered by a petrol engine giving an efficiency of just about 4-5 kmpl in real life conditions.

Traditionally, diesel engines have always given better fuel economy compared to their petrol counterparts. (that's why all cabs are diesel powered) and they are also suitable for heavy vehicles. (there's a reason why all buses, trucks etc. run on diesel). Hence having diesel powered SUVs is absolutely logical.

Whats illogical is having diesel powered hatchbacks or compact sedans. There's no need for a diesel engine in a swift or an i20 or an amaze or an xcent or an etios or a polo or others. These cars can very well do with petrol engines giving a good fuel economy as well.

Diesel powered hatchbacks and sedans became popular cause of the government policies a few years back. When diesel rates were subsidized and controlled by the government, while petrol was sold at market rates. This led to a price differential of about Rs. 35-40 between the 2 fuels at one point of time. That's when these diesel powered hatchbacks came into force, and expectedly so. 80% of the cars sold in the Indian market then were all diesel powered.

But this situation doesn't exist anymore and the price differential between the 2 fuels is within Rs.15 (which is normal). Hence, i honestly believe that the supreme court should go after the diesel powered hatchbacks and compact sedans. Restrict them, or maybe even ban them. They're not needed in the current scenario.
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Old 20th December 2015, 05:34   #165
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Originally Posted by man_and_machine View Post
Imagine a situation where you have a 120 bhp electric car, same size and feature set, that charges in 3 hours and can do 600 kms in a single full charge and costs 20% more than is petrol and 30% more than its diesel alternative. Now we don't need to argue that electricity is got from burning coal etc (the premise is that its all clean energy all the way down, somehow). Would you not be willing to buy the Electric variant? I guess there is goodness if people, if they are given real,useful alternatives.
Yes, this is a more sensible approach. And Indian govt should give subsidy in a such a way that market develops such electric products. This will deal with the pollution aspect. But the congestion thing will stay.
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