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Old 30th June 2016, 13:26   #316
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Default Re: Supreme Court open to lift Delhi-NCR Diesel ban, proposes a one-time green cess

Another article which throws some light on this recent development.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...w/52984554.cms

It seems the auto manufacturers (primarily Toyota) offered to deposit 1% of the ex-showroom price of the car as a green cess for big diesel diesel vehicles.
The court has asked all the concerned auto companies to hold discussions and come up with a concrete proposal.

Not sure if this would apply only to cars registered in NCR or throughout India.
Also, currently they've mentioned of a green cess only for the big diesel cars (above 2,000 c engine capacity I guess). Not sure if all diesel vehicles will be covered in the final decision.

There's been no mention of whether the cess would go to the central government, state government, the NGT or some other body. Further, no discussion on how the cess will be utilised.

Loads of uncertainty. Just gotta wait and watch
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Old 30th June 2016, 13:28   #317
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Default re: Supreme Court bans registration of diesel cars over 2,000 cc in Delhi & NCR:EDIT lifted with 1% cess

@VeluM; Will they give an economic 'incentive' for Ultra green cars like Mercedes Blue.

The biggest joke and irony, Buses which run on Diesel (compression ratio about 18-22, and no ignition) having their engines retrofitted for CNG. The only reason they got away was that the buses were on essentially truck chassis and engines, ie. grossly overpowered. Why did anyone not come up with Bus chassis with far smaller engines in the fifty odd years?
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Old 30th June 2016, 13:34   #318
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Default Re: Supreme Court open to lift Delhi-NCR Diesel ban, proposes a one-time green cess

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Originally Posted by dZired View Post
According to the SC bench that comprised of Chief Justice T S Thakur and Justices A K Sikri and R Banumathi, the added cess will inform the buyers that the vehicle they are purchasing produces more pollution than petrol-powered cars.
I don't like diesels but this has gone too far. Do these guys ever read a report of which engine produces how much CO2/NOx? Doesn't SIAM fight these cases with some actual facts & figures?

Instead of giving tax breaks to promote new cleaner/more efficient engines, they come up with archaic bans targeting private cars & while thousands of old/in-efficient/ill maintained trucks ply the road freely.

Instead of increasing direct tax base (just 1% of India pays direct tax), they just want to milk the same people even more. Ridiculous
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Old 30th June 2016, 13:46   #319
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Exactly how does imposing a cess clean up the environment?

If the idea is to make diesel cars costlier so less of them will be bought then 1% is a joke. The cess needs significant for it to be a deterrent. 10, 20, 30 or maybe even more?

And 2000cc is no magic figure. Manufacturers are smart enough. Mahindra for example is already selling a 1999cc XUV, if I am right. Does it now become magically non polluting having beaten the ban by a cc?

The cess should be progressive and start from 800cc or whichever is the smallest viable diesel engine getting heftier as the size goes up.

Totally agree with sgiitk on pollution standards. I would even suggest a max no. on the gasses per engine. Then you can drive a truck of an engine as long as it pollutes only as much as a small diesel in absolute numbers.

Last edited by LithiumSunset : 30th June 2016 at 14:01.
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Old 30th June 2016, 13:57   #320
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Default Re: Supreme Court open to lift Delhi-NCR Diesel ban, proposes a one-time green cess

Wonder how our Supreme Court manages to find time for such petty issues. This cess will never ever be removed because mother earth will not come to SC and tell that my health has improved after the cess was imposed. I am now wondering about the logic behind 'Krishi Vikas Cess', what message does this cess convey to a customer? If justifications can be so simple, I foresee now some new kind of tax on all out of state vehicles in Karnataka,

Last edited by deehunk : 30th June 2016 at 14:04.
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Old 30th June 2016, 14:04   #321
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Default Re: Supreme Court open to lift Delhi-NCR Diesel ban, proposes a one-time green cess

As if the existing taxes are not enough.

And the whole idea of bigger is more polluting is so misconstrued, especially in daily driving conditions.

Sure, 2000cc+ diesel engines do not spew daffodils, but i do bet that, the smallest viable diesel engine for example engines like the DDiS in the Celerio or the national diesel engine, the 1.3 MJD, does more harm to the environment and health than, say, one of those banned diesel monsters from Mercedes Benz or Toyota.

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Originally Posted by LithiumSunset View Post
And 2000cc is no magic figure. It should be progressive and start from 800cc or whichever is the smallest viable diesel engine getting heftier as the size goes up.Manufacturers are smart enough. Mahindra for example is already selling a 1999cc XUV, if I am right.
One should tax vehicles based on their emissions, so that companies will be forced to come up with cleaner and newer technologies, rather than go for this engine size regulations which would have made sense some four decades back.

Last edited by DicKy : 30th June 2016 at 14:11.
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Old 30th June 2016, 14:19   #322
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Originally Posted by DicKy View Post
As if the existing taxes are not enough.

And the whole idea of bigger is more polluting is so misconstrued, especially in daily driving conditions.

Sure, 2000cc+ diesel engines do not spew daffodils, but i do bet that, the smallest viable diesel engine for example engines like the DDiS in the Celerio or the national diesel engine, the 1.3 MJD, does more harm to the environment and health than, say, one of those banned diesel monsters from Mercedes Benz or Toyota.

One should tax vehicles based on their emissions, so that companies will be forced to come up with cleaner and newer technologies, rather than go for this engine size regulations which would have made sense some four decades back.
Which is exactly why I said progressive so that the national engine gets taxed too. Perhaps green cess is zero on a zero cc engine and goes up as the size increases? Of course this is but a substitute for not being able to link it to actual and absolute emissions.

As long as we agree that diesels are more polluting, then we're on the same page.

If anything I see another benefit in banning large engines. It also reduces the no. of these behemoths on our crowded city streets.

But my question remains: How does a cess reduce pollution?
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Old 30th June 2016, 14:40   #323
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Default Re: Supreme Court open to lift Delhi-NCR Diesel ban, proposes a one-time green cess

What was this ban all about?

Just another way to increase the taxes. Does this means that by paying one time 'Green Cess', cars about 2,000cc diesel engines will become more cleaner?

Hats off to such a wise thinking which is actually miles ahead of the times we are living in.
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Old 30th June 2016, 14:45   #324
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Default Re: Supreme Court open to lift Delhi-NCR Diesel ban, proposes a one-time green cess

Quote:
Originally Posted by DicKy View Post
One should tax vehicles based on their emissions, so that companies will be forced to come up with cleaner and newer technologies, rather than go for this engine size regulations which would have made sense some four decades back.
That's going to be tricky to implement what with so many manufacturers fudging their engine emission numbers
And hence, the engine displacement/size cc based measure is probably the easiest one to implement, doesn't matter if that's an age-old way of doing it, and I'm guessing this is the easy way that may be taken!

Last edited by NPV : 30th June 2016 at 14:48.
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Old 30th June 2016, 14:46   #325
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Default Re: Supreme Court open to lift Delhi-NCR Diesel ban, proposes a one-time green cess

What they have said is - they might
Not they will
An uncertainity still hangs as to whether when the order will be finally passed and what will be the surcharge for diesel vehicles over 2000 cc
Six months have passed since this order but still no clarity from their Lordships
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Old 30th June 2016, 14:54   #326
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Default Re: Supreme Court open to lift Delhi-NCR Diesel ban, proposes a one-time green cess

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Originally Posted by LithiumSunset View Post
But my question remains: How does a cess reduce pollution?
It doesn't, and the court has no intention of using it to reduce pollution. The report mentions that the court only wants buyers of such vehicles to realize that they're purchasing a high polluting vehicle (according to their logic). For that, the emissions from the engine should be yardstick of measurement and not 2,000 cc. I've seen 50 cc mopeds and autos emitting black smoke and polluting much more than the big vehicles. Logic of 2,000 cc makes no sense and is devoid of any wisdom.

Also, if the court believes that imposing a 1% cess would deter people from buying such vehicles, then again, it's climbing up the wrong tree.
Someone who can afford 15-20 lakhs min. to purchase such a car can easily afford a few more thousand Rupees. Obviously, even the manufacturers know this, and they'll be absolutely fine with a cess as long as it is within 3-4%. Perhaps they just want to close this chapter and commence their business again, without getting into arguments of logic with regards to whether 2,000cc + engines pollute more or less.
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Old 30th June 2016, 14:55   #327
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Default Re: Supreme Court open to lift Delhi-NCR Diesel ban, proposes a one-time green cess

Setting a particular pollution norm, should be a very simple criteria for allowing sales of vehicles in any particular region (if that region is considered environmentally more sensitive than other places). The engine displacement should not be any determinant attribute at all.

Moreover, there should be directives to Oil companies to supply fuel consistent with modern day expectations of controlling pollution.

This is a perfect example that its just power that demands the honour rather than having earned it.
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Old 30th June 2016, 15:10   #328
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Default re: Supreme Court bans registration of diesel cars over 2,000 cc in Delhi & NCR:EDIT lifted with 1% cess

What a bunch of hogwash spewing jokers!!!

They ignore the actual emission numbers of these so called polluting larger capacity SUVs
They ignore the fact that in NCR the majority polluters are the trucks.
They ignore the fact that these SUVs constitute only a small portion of total vehicle sales.

And they expect us to believe that they are thinking of the environment, when they curb sales of these SUVs.

When I think of these jokers am reminded of this line from Mark Antony's speech in Julius Caesar
"And Brutus is an honourable man"
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Old 30th June 2016, 15:23   #329
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Default re: Supreme Court bans registration of diesel cars over 2,000 cc in Delhi & NCR:EDIT lifted with 1% cess

Where is the emission issue here ?
All over 2000 cc diesel SUV s meet emission norms as per Bharat IV standard.
When all vehicles being sold meet the same standard, then how can the court ban a particular set of vehicles ?

It does not define logic.
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Old 30th June 2016, 15:51   #330
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Default re: Supreme Court bans registration of diesel cars over 2,000 cc in Delhi & NCR:EDIT lifted with 1% cess

The worst part of all this is that most of cess are not used for the intended purposes at all. I would not mind the cess so much if it were actually used for pollution and traffic control. This will become just one more tax for the Government to squander away.
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