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Old 16th December 2015, 19:48   #61
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Default Re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

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Originally Posted by Ragavsr View Post
http://m.timesofindia.com/city/delhi...w/45802530.cms



Dust is responsible for the majority (53%) of all particulate pollution in Delhi while vehicles overall contribute just 6% of particulate emissions.

Both the Kejriwal Govt. and the NGT have been trying to cover up their inefficiency and incapability in cleaning up the roads and taking actio n against the real estate companies which are the second largest source of dust.

Burning of crop residues in neughbouring states and the particulate pollution from industries surrounding Delhi are the source for the remaining particulate emissions.

Before someone questions the genuinity of the facts, this is from a report submitted to the Honorable Supreme Court by the Ministry of Environment and Forests.

The solution is cleaning up dust from the roads, controlling the real estate lobby and relocating industrues surrounding Delhi and not banning vehicles of any sort or this dumb odd even formula.


I agree with your post 100% - hope some people at the decision making level see this logic you have put forth.

If the dust in Delhi NCR is controlled by greening the dusty paths, curbing construction pollution (which is rampant) the major component of the "pollution" is taken care of.

But the government of course would like to look in every direction other than their own house !!

It is indeed sad that there is no implementation of pollution control laws. The vehicles that emit "smoke screens" (no kidding) are not challaned as that is where the traffic cops make money. Sad state of affairs. If badly maintained vehicles are challaned heavily, people would think twice before using such vehicles or have them rectified.
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Old 16th December 2015, 20:05   #62
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Default re: Supreme Court bans registration of diesel cars over 2,000 cc in Delhi & NCR

Today while driving I was just noticing the > 2.0L diesels (XUV, Innova, Fortuner etc.). No smoke coming off these vehicles. In parallel I was also noticing the black smoke coming out of old city buses, water tankers, construction trucks, ill-maintained indica / verito cabs etc.

Just makes me wonder, if we look at the percentage or absolute numbers of private owners owning Innovas', Fortuners' etc. as compared to the 'real pollutants' and their large numbers (large taxi segment that are not maintained properly, dated huge diesel trucks & buses that are not maintained and the amount of black smoke they spit out), stopping new diesel car (>2.0L) registrations, would it really solve or reduce the issue?

IMHO the Toyotas', Mahindra (new models), BMWs etc. [private owners] have well refined latest technology diesel engines. Do they really contribute towards that much damage as compared to the larger number of under maintained commercial big vehicles & cab segments? Of course, I do also understand that diesel fuel in general pollutes "more" as compared to petrol. I know there is a an entire thread on this topic with 2 schools of thoughts.

I do understand the cause for concern is genuine and should be certainly addressed. 100% supportive. I also agree that the "well-offs" drive expensive diesels and take advantage of the subsidized diesel fuel meant for the farmers etc., which also needs to be addressed someway.

But what I do worry about is, are we taking the right approach to solve the larger issue by merely stopping sales of these new 'well refined' diesels and not putting any hard measures on those huge trucks, buses & other smaller diesel cabs (under maintained) that ply the road with less refined & unmaintained diesel engines.

I do want to call out that, I have never owned & do not own any diesel vehicles currently, so no bias in my thoughts here.

Last edited by geotracks : 16th December 2015 at 20:06.
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Old 16th December 2015, 20:30   #63
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The most interesting viewpoint coming out of this thread is that this is an opportunist decision by authorities to put a stop to the 'diesel subsidy' on 'luxury cars' .


Or just another step to increase revenues in the garb of 'pollution reduction'.


Something along the lines of massive surveillance systems put up by US government targeting citizens in the garb of the 'patriot act'.


:-) :-)
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Old 16th December 2015, 20:38   #64
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Default re: Supreme Court bans registration of diesel cars over 2,000 cc in Delhi & NCR

In my view this is a knee-jerk reaction by the government. My reasoning is as simple as below:
- What are all the factors that contribute to pollution in Delhi; of that what percentage is caused by vehicles? (A)
- Within this, what is the contribution of diesel vehicles
- Within this set, what is the contribution of SUVs
- Within this set what is the contribution of SUVs > 2000cc
- Since this ban is for three months, how many such vehicles have you stopped from coming onto Delhi roads (B)
- So what percentage of the total causes have you really controlled by this move? (B as a percentage of A)

I would rather like to hear from the government some good long term solutions which factor an overarching view rather than such knee-jerk proposals...
- How to curb dirt & dust on roads
- How to control industrial pollutants
- How to increase green cover considerably
- How to eliminate crop burning in neighboring states
- How to create social awareness
- How to provide incentives for people to buy electric powered vehicles
- How to provide 24 hrs power so that diesel generators are almost not used
- How to provide an fast, comfortable, efficient & affordable public transport alternative
- How to incentivise people for use of public transport

But then we choose to take the easy way out. And of course it must be the "SUV buying" public which must be taxed. Because clearly if I ban the million odd two wheelers, the old dingy trucks or the good old autos then I can kiss my votes goodbye forever.
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Old 16th December 2015, 20:50   #65
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Default re: Supreme Court bans registration of diesel cars over 2,000 cc in Delhi & NCR

I have no idea how this is going to help and what is the logic behind this. Are they now going to have a rotation policy where every 3 months a different class of vehicles will get banned? There is absolutely no justification behind this knee jerk ruling. Don't improve the infrastructure and fix the other loopholes but keep making life of citizens more and more difficult.

I really feel sorry for companies like Tata, Mahindra and Mercedes ( almost their whole portfolio will fall under this category). How does the court plan to suffice for the dealer losses?
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Old 16th December 2015, 20:53   #66
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Default re: Supreme Court bans registration of diesel cars over 2,000 cc in Delhi & NCR

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Originally Posted by drmohitg View Post
I have no idea how this is going to help and what is the logic behind this. Are they now going to have a rotation policy where every 3 months a different class of vehicles will get banned? There is absolutely no justification behind this knee jerk ruling. Don't improve the infrastructure and fix the other loopholes but keep making life of citizens more and more difficult.

I really feel sorry for companies like Tata, Mahindra and Mercedes ( almost their whole portfolio will fall under this category). How does the court plan to suffice for the dealer losses?
The Supreme Court has joined the Kejriwal government and the NGT in making abursd illogical decisions. First, the sunfilm ban and now this.
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Old 16th December 2015, 21:05   #67
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Default re: Supreme Court bans registration of diesel cars over 2,000 cc in Delhi & NCR

Quote:
Originally Posted by ptushar View Post

But then we choose to take the easy way out. And of course it must be the "SUV buying" public which must be taxed. Because clearly if I ban the million odd two wheelers, the old dingy trucks or the good old autos then I can kiss my votes goodbye forever.
All you wrote is ideal and should have been done decades ago. People who promoted diesel new it's ill effects, developers know they have to curb dust, government knew they do not have power for so called development but they carried on with it for greed and for votes. This ruling is, however, by Supreme Court and they do not get votes for what they do. When all these years the politicians were poisoning us slowly, no one objected. When someone is trying to save our children we all are criticizing it.
The intention is right though the measure might not be accurately thought off.

@ragavsr, that's is most absurd comment I have seen. Remember BJP at centre is also supporting it. The ruling has a lot of other things beside banning 2000cc cars and that will have some impact for sure.

Last edited by sourabhzen : 16th December 2015 at 21:09.
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Old 16th December 2015, 21:19   #68
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Default re: Supreme Court bans registration of diesel cars over 2,000 cc in Delhi & NCR

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Originally Posted by rajneeesh View Post
It is only the kitchen fuels like LPG and Kerosene that is subsidised. Diesel is taxed lower than petrol but by no means is it subsidised.
Pl read the diesel subsidized as the real sense of the word and not what the government definition is... e.g. a 5 lac rupee petrol car owner and tax payer is subsidizing someone driving a crore rupee car but filling fuel at lower prices than the petrol owner.
Why is there lower taxation? So that higher tax on petrol can subsidize for the lower tax on diesel.
Anyway, enough OT

Last edited by avdhesh15 : 16th December 2015 at 21:21.
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Old 16th December 2015, 22:47   #69
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Default re: Supreme Court bans registration of diesel cars over 2,000 cc in Delhi & NCR

Well.. what next ? Will every one be forced to buy cycles and commute ?

Govt. has done nothing to curb this menace from the start due to inaction and populist policies. Also it did not commission a study to understand the root cause and response. This could have been dealt in a much more palatable way to the public.

Also, Why are Supreme Court's directives not to the Govt. but to citizens? Can't it set targets to govt. and force it to achieve by penalizing vehicles with out valid pollution checks etc. ?
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Old 16th December 2015, 22:48   #70
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Default re: Supreme Court bans registration of diesel cars over 2,000 cc in Delhi & NCR

This is going to hurt Toyota's Fortuner & Innova numbers.

tbh, MOST, people buying the Fortuner atleast are only buying for the 'prestige' value, and not for the regular off-roading it's actually meant for.

People in other metros too will become fearful that their "it'll run forever" Innova's could be declared illegal at some time in the future by state authorities.

lol Anand Mahindra is going to be quite sad. Just a month ago he declared these car rental & taxi companies as a threat to industry.

Even TATA Motors SUV's will be affected, but they don't sell very many anyway.

IMHO if we keep quiet now, we're misleading investors all over the world that we'll allow them to sell their stuff here even if it's disastrous to the environment. Because clearly, we won't!

Also IMO :

1) In metro cities, Sale of Diesel should be stopped for SUV's and sedans & hatches should NOT get diesel at subsidised prices.

2) ALL private petrol/diesel vehicles older than 5 years should be banned from metro cities. This'll ensure they work well, since they'll mostly be within warranty. (Car Sales will increase!)

3) EGR delete thru Remapping of car ECU's should be made a criminal offence (owner) if the car is found to be used in metro's. Implementation will be hard, but still.

4) Diesel Taxi hatches & sedans should be allowed since they use the car even beyond its optimum performance / working life and can be monitored & regulated.

I own a diesel sedan & I'll support this if implemented in Bangalore, because no matter how much of a 'Car Person' I may be, my conscience tells me I should do my part even if 'Scientific calculations' don't deem it urgently necessary.

Last edited by WorkingGuru : 16th December 2015 at 23:12.
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Old 16th December 2015, 23:04   #71
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Default re: Supreme Court bans registration of diesel cars over 2,000 cc in Delhi & NCR

So the SC thinks, for this winter let us start from the rich that too ones want to buy diesel vehicles with more than 2000cc. Next winter they will figure the pollution levels are still high, then ban all diesels. 2017, diesel gensets. By the time they get to the root cause and attempt to make amends many people would have died of pollution.

And of course Govts will remain corrupt, infrastructure weak, public transport shoddy. Another govt, another argument, another knee jerk reaction.

Where the heck is the "data" based on which decisions are made?
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Old 16th December 2015, 23:39   #72
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Default re: Supreme Court bans registration of diesel cars over 2,000 cc in Delhi & NCR

Absolutely ridiculous judgement from SC. Someone please take some auto lessons to SC. They make HORRIBLE decisions wrt automotives. The last one being the banning of protective sun films on cars.

How on earth is the type of car (SUV vs Sedan) determine pollution levels? The same 2L engine in a car will pollute same as in a sedan (if they are in same tune). Why ban only SUVs? (Can someone PLEASE tell me I am dreaming?)

As many people pointed out, where is the data to back this decision? I see black smokes from autos, buses, trucks and NO ONE stops them. Police catches state of the art new bikes to check for emission certificates. I am not saying expensive bikes shouldn't do emission checks. I am saying don't catch the bike while the bus is blowing black smoke in your face!

Btw, if we want BS-V, fuels are coming only in 2019!

As long as vehicles are CERTIFIED to have emission levels below published and accepted limits, NO VEHICLE can be stopped from plying. Doesn't matter if they are petrol or diesel.

What kind of idiocy should we tolerate in this country?


Quote:
Originally Posted by WorkingGuru View Post
IMHO if we keep quiet now, we're misleading investors all over the world that we'll allow them to sell their stuff here even if it's disastrous to the environment. Because clearly, we won't!

What kind of jingoism is this? BMWs and Audi's and Merc and Toyotas use the same engines globally. It is not that they use terrible engines here and exquisite engines in EU and US (and elsewhere)


DISCLAIMER: I don't own an SUV nor do I live in Delhi.
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Old 16th December 2015, 23:48   #73
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Default re: Supreme Court bans registration of diesel cars over 2,000 cc in Delhi & NCR

So when you have a family of 6 to go out, rather than using an Innova you will take 2 diesel cars out and that some how will be less polluting? There should have been a rule of people capacity/engine size that should be a determining factor. I guess this in an un-informed move, or may be Maruti lobby, now you will have to buy a Ertiga or Honda Mobilio (heard of it?) if you need a bigger people mover. I guess a dart board has replaced the thinking process.
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Old 17th December 2015, 00:07   #74
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Why can't a person who can afford a Mercedes or an Audi not be able to afford petrol? I know people who keep blabbering about climate changes and stuff throughout year but have been driving a diesel car all their life.
In my opinion the problem here is diesel engines in general and not just the SUV's or the CC's.
I've seen small diesel hatchbacks emit hell lot of smoke.
And yes the rules brought about in Delhi right now have their cons, but instead of criticizing them altogether we should look at it as a start.
I feel that it's just a start and the best is yet to come.
Here in Ahmedabad also the pollution is increasing day by day and so are the number of diesel cars on the road. You'll choke to death if you're not wearing a helmet on your 2-wheeler.
The government should start giving subsidy for petrol instead of Diesel and then wait for everything to take a U-Turn. Car sales, pollution, etc.
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Old 17th December 2015, 00:21   #75
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Default re: Supreme Court bans registration of diesel cars over 2,000 cc in Delhi & NCR

Quote:
Originally Posted by sriramv.iyer View Post
Absolutely ridiculous judgement from SC....
What kind of idiocy should we tolerate in this country?
...
What kind of jingoism is this? BMWs and Audi's and Merc and Toyotas use the same engines globally. It is not that they use terrible engines here and exquisite engines in EU and US (and elsewhere)...
lol if you hold all this contempt for courts, why didn't you go legal before ? Why didn't you plead that they use a certain organised 'Scientific' method incase any significant steps are taken ?

And if you label owning up to the problem (caused by a product that amuses almost all of us here on Team-BHP), as Jingoism, then I hope you try to understand the gravity of situation on ground, better.

Schools have had to be closed so as to prevent children from being harmed by contaminated air. If this was bio-chemical attack by another country, I kid you not, we'd be at war by now.

Just because car makers use certain engines globally, doesn't make it OK for them to use the same here. If their product is causing a genuine & serious problem here, it should be banned.

Firstly, I didn't AT ALL say that they discriminate! And secondly, just because you mentioned it, IIRC Honda used a 2L diesel engine all over the world, but didn't bring the same to India for its CR-V. Similarly, discrimination has always been there in the name of 'commercial viability' (strategic, probably even whimsical, convenience).

Anyway, if anyone was really keen on checking & being shocked at 'what kind of Idiocracy' we tolerate in this country, just look around at the numerous different kinds of suffering of the people caused by poverty, mis-governance & indifference by the educated & well to do 'civil society'. Many of us are blinded by the pretentious lives we're living and are oblivious unless those problems directly effect us.

Last edited by WorkingGuru : 17th December 2015 at 00:51.
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