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Old 17th December 2015, 00:22   #76
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Default re: Supreme Court bans registration of diesel cars over 2,000 cc in Delhi & NCR

So 2.0 L+ SUVs (including Innova, XUV etc) probably sell a total of 10,000 in a month. The DZIRE and SWIFT alone sell more than 30,000 a month !! Now is the supreme court telling me that the 10,000 odd cars with bigger engines are the only problem ?
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Old 17th December 2015, 02:14   #77
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Default re: Supreme Court bans registration of diesel cars over 2,000 cc in Delhi & NCR

Every idiot has the right to an opinion. And going by the accusations, counter accusations and general screaming on the TV channels, I can safely say we are tolerant nation and we do whole heartedly suffer fools without prejudice. The anchor bellowed, diesel is 7 times more polluting than petrol, which in between became 27 times, all this without even naming the specific pollutant under investigation. Pure madness.

What did take me by surprise was the unequivocal stance by the honourable supreme court - diesel is bad - control its consumption. The supreme court may be indulgent but definitely not stupid - so why did it make engines above 2000 cc/SUV the first fall guy.

Let us look at the some of the *findings* from CSE, one of the parties which is party to ongoing proceedings in the supreme court.

1. Diesel is toxic
a. Data from Europe shows that the diesel cars’ toxicity becomes comparable with petrol only when they are fuelled with near zero sulphur fuel and are fitted with particulate traps. (No reference to the specific study/data)
b. The International Agency for Research of Cancer (IARC), WHO, United States Environmental Protection Agency, etc have all classified diesel emissions as carcinogenic.

2. Higher NOX, Particulate Matter but lower CO2 as compared to Petrol
a. Our emissions standards are not fuel neutral as they differentiate between petrol and diesel vehicles.
b. As per ARAI, BS 3 diesel cars can emit 7.5 times more toxic particulate matter than comparable petrol cars
c. Similarly NOX emission limits from a diesel engine are 3 to 4 times that of petrol engine for BS 3, BS 4
d. Additional: NOX - with water vapour forms nitrous/nitric acid which is toxic, it may also form ozone at ground level, which in turn causes smog. Particulate Matter is the key constituent of smog.

3. Percentage of bigger cars - cars consuming more fuel on the road
(Most of these points seem to take 2009/10 as the reference year)
a. The multi purpose vehicle segment, or the so called SUVs, is already 8 (2010 figures) per cent of the sales. If we combine this with the bigger segments cars (A4 onwards) then the market share of these cars is nearly 30 per cent. Even though the smaller car segment (A2) is still substantial (58 per cent) a steady increase in the bigger car segments and SUVs can substantially erode the fuel economy advantage of small car fleet.
b. The on-road surveys carried out by RITES also show that 30 per cent of the cars on Delhi’s roads are already mid-size and large cars.
c. The smallest car segment – the Nano – consumes on an average 5.90 litres of fuel per 100 km and the A2 segment as represented by such models as the Alto and Hyundai i10 about 5.40 litres per 100 km. But the A5 cars (like the Mercedes E Class E-250) and A6 (Audi A8) consume 8.51 litres per 100 km and 9.76 litres per 100 km respectively. The range in the biggest segment (B1 B2 and MPVs) is from 7.30 to 8.19 litres per 100 km
d. Additional: More fuel consumption implies higher gross emissions i.e. an alto will be less polluting than a benz if you drive the same distance.

4. So, what did CSE petition the government to do, or rather what was CSE's solution to the problem
a. Discourage big cars and SUVs by linking taxation to the actual fuel consumption of the vehicles.
b. Remove price incentive for diesel cars
c. Introduce ‘clean’ diesel technology and fuel on a nation-wide basis


So, what did the supreme court do - Amongst other measures temporarily banned big engined cars/SUVs running on diesel. Which is on the lines of what CSE wanted them to do. So, now we know what to expect next on Jan 5/6th 2016

Full article http://www.cseindia.org/node/83


Reduce pollution, make the city habitable - no questions on that. If this measure doesn't work then we surely take inspiration from history and simply move the capital, its factories, its vehicles, its people, or its air to a new location. I am sure we have a Tughlaq (2016 version) in our midst who will most certainly emerge in one of the TV studios and pontificate on the same and keep us all entertained with lies, damn lies and statistics.

Last edited by cyberwhizs : 17th December 2015 at 02:24.
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Old 17th December 2015, 03:20   #78
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Default re: Supreme Court bans registration of diesel cars over 2,000 cc in Delhi & NCR

I think there are several points behind this decision:

1. I think we as Indian don't pay attention to environmental issues. We always have this "chalta hai" attitude. However, pollution has very long term ill-effects and we need to change our thinking. This "knee jerk reaction" will make ignorant people to take notice.

2. I know Cars are not the only source of pollution but even then we need to control traffic, its becoming a nightmare. All big cities Seoul, Bejing etc have such measures and its high time that we implement some. Eg: In seoul you can choose one day of week where you would like to take out your car.

3. SC decision shows that it is serious about tackling this problem and will make others such as kerosene generators users or builders sit up and take notice of it. Take it as a sign of things to come.

4. Ban on Luxury cars is justified. If you have 50lacs to buy a nice car, you have the money to run it on Petrol.

5. Diesel is the backbone of the industrial vehicles so SC can't just pass a ruling which will crumble the industry surrounding NCR. Thats why they chose private vehicles thereby giving others a warning to get their stuff in order.

BUT all said and done, we need a very strong public transportation system to backup these schemes. All tier 1 and 2 cities should to come up with Metro or alternate public transportation plans.

My views might sound a bit harsh and idealistic but I was born and raised up in Delhi and hate to see in its current state. Its just become a city of traffic jams. I really hope that people cooperate and Delhi becomes breathable again.

Last edited by vagu : 17th December 2015 at 03:21.
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Old 17th December 2015, 03:57   #79
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Default re: Supreme Court bans registration of diesel cars over 2,000 cc in Delhi & NCR

I can't comprehend the basis of this ban. The Supreme Court has temporarily banned the sale of Diesel Vehicles in Delhi-NCR for 3 months as there's too much pollution especially in the winter months. So how will this help if after 3 months, all the banned vehicles are allowed to be registered (if the ban is not extended) and the vehicles are plying on road in the winter months in 2016-2017 ? Won't these polluting vehicles be contributing to the pollution next year ? The IIT-Kanpur report that is everyone is quoting says that BS-4 Vehicles contribute the least to causing pollution in Delhi. Out of the all BS-4 Vehicles, Diesel BS-4 vehicles are a lot less and out of those Diesel BS-4 Vehicles, those having Engine Capacity above 2000cc even lesser. Yet, we find that it makes for nice headlines and attention grabbing and ban them. Much more needs to be done about Construction Activity, Dust on Roads and old Vehicles (both Petrol & Diesel) which emit black smoke. I can't help but think of this decision as just a sequel of the Ban Sunfilm in Cars decision by the same court.

Now coming to the Diesel is the root cause myth that is been told by the Activist/NGO lobby. Yes, Diesel is much more polluting fuel compared to petrol but then that's not motorists' fault. The fault lies with the Government for failing to bring in BS-V & BS-VI norms, for the Industry to make vehicles that are Euro-V & Euro-6 compliant and most of all the Oil Marketing/Refining Companies for failing to provide Quality Fuel. Please do remember that a vehicle can be as polluting as the fuel that goes into it. To buttress their point, Sunita Narain & CSE keep quoting Diesel Cars emit 7 Times more Particulate Matter than Petrol cars but the Car Type and Fuel Type being quoted is BS-3 where as Delhi-NCR have switched to BS-4 Fuel a long time back. Isn't this shifting the Goal Post ?

Coming to pollution, we should never forget that Diesel as a fuel is much more fuel efficient than petrol. So even if Diesel is as polluting as petrol than the Pollution per KM will be much less simply because Diesel cars travel a longer distance in a litre of diesel than petrol cars do. Also there's been a mis-campaign going around that Diesel is still subsided. While this was true in the past, the NDA govt has deregulated Diesel Fuel which has made it market dependent thereby removing the subsidy just like it's with Petrol.

At the end of the day Data & Logic should dictate our actions and not some Activist's Agenda. I still remember the same NGO had tirelessly campaigned for shifting to CNG in public vehicles and to this day there are long lines in front of every CNG pump in Delhi. That irony is that instead of Pollution decreasing as was promised to us, it has ironically gone up. Tomorrow the same Activists might petition to ban all Hydro-Carbon Vehicles in Delhi as they cause pollution and allow only Battery Operated Vehicles as they cause no pollution. But we all know that's not the case. Those vehicles may not cause pollution on the roads but they are cause pollution at the Source since majority of our Power Plants are Hydro-Carbon based. It's not like they can control polluted air to enter Delhi from outside.

I think we as a country have the habit of not doing anything for the majority of our time and are more than happy with the "chalta hai" attitude. It's only when the water rises above our nose that we panic and give knee jerk reactions to be barely able to survive and postpone the problem to another day instead of finding the root cause and dealing with it maturely with all the facts. The irony is that despite all of this we take offense when someone mentions us a Banana Republic. If this is not a case of being one, what is?
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Old 17th December 2015, 07:09   #80
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Default re: Supreme Court bans registration of diesel cars over 2,000 cc in Delhi & NCR:EDIT lifted with 1% cess

Another storm in a teacup.

If they really want to reduce pollution then they need to consider those share autos, the big lorries and other old polluting vehicles.

They also need to consider the issue of burning garbage all over the place and creating poisonous fumes.

The diesel private cars are the softest target they can hit, hence they have done so.

Apart form hitting the softest target with huge taxes and every possible other method to make money, this is one more nail in the coffin of the average joe.

Last edited by Aditya : 18th December 2015 at 08:10. Reason: Last line was not necessary
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Old 17th December 2015, 09:55   #81
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Default re: Supreme Court bans registration of diesel cars over 2,000 cc in Delhi & NCR

This decision seems to be like the one taken to study the impact.
If this three months ban reflects in considerable drop in pollution then this going to continue as a permanent ban.
Actually speaking, when you can churn out decent power and torque figures from 1.5 l engines like Renault's dCi unit, then I don't see a need of bigger engines like 2.5 or 3.0 L engines. Companies can design new and efficient engines for bigger cars which are currently running on 2.2-3.0 engines.
I understand that 'There is no replacement for displacement' but we have to reach the golden point somewhere.
We have seen 1.0 EcoBoost engine powering 1.3 tonne SUV so similar technology can be adopted while designing diesel units.

Mahindra, Toyota, Tata are using the same engine which they designed decade ago, with minor fine tuning.

I also understand that All these measures can't be taken overnight as company's need almost 2 year to design and test an all new engine.
But companies didn't do it voluntarily as well and this decision will ring the bell really hard in their ears to wake them up.

In my opinion,
Irrespective of fuel (petrol/diesel) ensure that most efficient vehicles ply on roads and enforce the vehicle scrapping policy for older vehicles (will have to face higher resistance).
Check and Issue PUC (Pollution Under Control Certificate) ONLY IF the vehicle genuinely passes the test. Don't implement for the sake of collecting fine.
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Old 17th December 2015, 10:15   #82
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Default re: Supreme Court bans registration of diesel cars over 2,000 cc in Delhi & NCR:EDIT lifted with 1% cess

Quote:
Originally Posted by shankar.balan View Post
Another storm in a teacup.
Really? Environmental concern is storm in a tea cup?

Quote:
Originally Posted by shankar.balan View Post
If they really want to reduce pollution then they need to consider those share autos, the big lorries and other old polluting vehicles.
Have you been following this issue with some interest or is is it just a knee jerk reaction from you? The old lorries have been banned. The big lorries that are not Delhi-bound will be diverted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shankar.balan View Post
They also need to consider the issue of burning garbage all over the place and creating poisonous fumes.
Isn't there already a fine on burning garbage? Just recently the NGT increased the fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shankar.balan View Post
The diesel private cars are the softest target they can hit, hence they have done so.
The ban on big diesel engined cars is one of the measures and not the only one. "They" have done more than that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shankar.balan View Post
Apart form hitting the softest target with huge taxes and every possible other method to make money, this is one more nail in the coffin of the average joe.
I think most would agree that somebody who can buy a car with a 2 litre diesel engine is pretty much above average joe. So I fail to see the coffin of average joe, let alone the nail.

Last edited by Aditya : 18th December 2015 at 08:11. Reason: Quoted text edited
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Old 17th December 2015, 10:38   #83
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Default re: Supreme Court bans registration of diesel cars over 2,000 cc in Delhi & NCR

This should be a prelude to banning all Diesel vehicles altogether, a way that some European countries are already thinking of. I wish the auto majors take it in the right spirit and make mends, instead of tuning down their engines to 1990cc.
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Old 17th December 2015, 11:25   #84
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Default re: Supreme Court bans registration of diesel cars over 2,000 cc in Delhi & NCR

The courts have ruled that anyone buying a luxury car should give importance to driving pleasure over comfort and space, hence stick to the most popular models from BMW. Their diesel engine is less than 2000cc and not affected. The usual suspects behind this shakedown should be audited and investigated, far mongering is their only stock in trade and I seriously want to know what their day time jobs are.

The majority of supporters of the ban are the jealous ones complaining about not being able to afford one of the cars in question. I expect clean air in three months as the CSE had found the silver bullet to the capital's air quality, time for the activists to fly to a ski resort and celebrate their good work by watching that Al Gore film. I don't see why the government hasn't taken against action against these scamsters, the way it did with those nuclear power protesters.
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Old 17th December 2015, 11:42   #85
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Default re: Supreme Court bans registration of diesel cars over 2,000 cc in Delhi & NCR

New update: (Sorry if I have missed the post, if someone had posted this earlier)

One time pollution tax to be imposed on diesel cars with engine <2000cc .

Source TOI

I think we are already paying some amount as green tax or pollution tax.
Now this new tax will mean diesel cars getting more costly. They already cost a lakh rupees more now.
I can't figure out whether this is good or bad.

Also rather than imposing such tax, which majority time doesn't directly reflect in saving nature (like planting trees or educating people about pollution), I will vote for SC enforcing installation of particulate filter or some similar device on all cars. I will happily pay for that rather than this pollution tax.
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Old 17th December 2015, 11:44   #86
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Default Re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

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Originally Posted by Ragavsr View Post
The fact is carsand two wheelers combined make up only for 6 % of total particulate emissions. So there is no need to ban diesel vehicles of any sort or introduce the poorly thought out odd even plan.
Currently the govt, the courts, NGT are looking out for any opportunity available to bring the pollution levels down and these are all emergency measures that are taken in order to aid the same. Emergency measures in general may not be the best solutions available - that is there by definition. You are open to give feedback to the administrative body ie. Delhi Govt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragavsr View Post
The odd even plan is exempt for women drivers it seems. Really? Cars pollute equally whether they are driven by a male or a female.
Sadly running the govt is a different thing - we know that Delhi is infamous for atrocities against women. The govt is concerned about possible issues with women using public transportation at night - so they said that they are looking forward to not apply the rules for women. The final decision will be available by Dec 26, as per govt. What are you concerned about? Or haven't you read all this in the media?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragavsr View Post
Banning garbage burning is a good move. But will they stop people from lighting up a camp fire at every street corner to protect from the cold?
I don't know and even you don't - better shoot the question after final details are available. Or you can send the concern to Delhi govt feedback mail ID.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragavsr View Post
The problem is not dumping of construction materials. The problem is dust from construction sited due to the construction sites not being covered and due ti workers in higher floors throwing waste sand from the top of buildings. I have seen the callous nature of construction workers myself in Chennai. This is what they do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragavsr View Post
Instead of going after the remaining 94 % , why target the 6% . Is it because it gives them publicity?
You are contradicting all over again - after all the story, why are you still telling that only 6% is targeted? The order from the SC is different which overrides anything else. The other measures taken by Delhi govt or NGT are different anyway.
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Old 17th December 2015, 11:45   #87
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Default re: Supreme Court bans registration of diesel cars over 2,000 cc in Delhi & NCR

During the introduction of CNG and the very proactive monitoring by the Supreme Court, I had read someplace that the only reason this got implemented so well, was because the court and judges themselves reside in the city.

Everyone needs to keep this in mind as to why such knee jerk reactions. They will try and do everything possible to clean up the city.
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Old 17th December 2015, 11:49   #88
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Default re: Supreme Court bans registration of diesel cars over 2,000 cc in Delhi & NCR

One thing that I forgot to mention in my previous post is that if Diesel Vehicles are responsible for all the pollution & banning them is the only solution, then why is there pollution in Beijing where there are very few Diesel vehicles ? If we go by the Activists' theories since there are no polluting diesel vehicles there should be no pollution. Another thing that came to my notice is that 2 wheelers in India are still on BS 3 norms. Why are we not bringing uniform norm for every vehicle class instead of letting different vehicle categories run on different emission norms. As soon as we can implement a single emission norm for the entire country for each & every vehicle class, the better it will be for us as all the refineries & the fuel supplied by them will be of a standard uniform quality and the emissions by every vehicle will be also similar thereby reducing vehicular pollution even more.

Now the chickens of the past 5 years of Policy Paralysis are coming home to roost.
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Old 17th December 2015, 11:51   #89
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Default re: Supreme Court bans registration of diesel cars over 2,000 cc in Delhi & NCR

Pollution is something which affects the quality of life.

So wouldn't it have been wiser to ban ALL non - public transport vehicles except emergency and law enforcement vehicles on active duty? At least for certain days every week?


While at it, I for one am worried about how the judiciary steadily encroaches the domains of the legislature and the executive nowadays.
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Old 17th December 2015, 12:10   #90
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Default re: Supreme Court bans registration of diesel cars over 2,000 cc in Delhi & NCR

What I cannot comprehend is the role of the SC in the matter.
I'm no expert, but the SC's role is to pass judgement, not actually make widescale rules like this one.

Having said that, although the ruling is debatable, something must be done to curb the Delhi pollution. Hopefully this is just a start.
Delhi gets vehicles very cheap when compared to other states, so perhaps the taxes can be brought on par with the others like Bangalore for e.g. After all it's Delhi who's suffering from pollution the most.
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