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Old 17th December 2015, 16:02   #106
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Default re: Supreme Court bans registration of diesel cars over 2,000 cc in Delhi & NCR

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Originally Posted by shankar.balan View Post
If the government and the powers that be, were to address the issues of environmental impact, pollution, safety etc in a properly planned, holistic manner with a proper long term view, then I would be completely on board.
Half hearted, fragmented initiatives leave me cold.
Government properly planned the degradation of environment by not providing proper public transport, allowing rampant development with controls only on paper and brought the air quality to miserable levels of today. We all were party to it and it pain us if someone wants to rein it. They might be fragmented initiatives, but some initiatives nonetheless.

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I will certainly air these views because I am not a socialist/ nationalist/ activist/ apologist or any other, but the fact is, that I am an honest tax payer and I have earned my money honestly. No one, but no one, has the right to decide about what car I spend my money on, except me.
As of now the diesel cars of 2000cc and above capacity does not exist in NCR. I can buy whatever else is in the market with all my money I have.

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Originally Posted by shankar.balan View Post
Governments cannot issue "Fatwas" of this nature without full and proper reasoning and even then, these should be issued if at all, only as a part of an overall "holistic" policy which encompasses all the other "ills" that we are prone to in this country of ours.
The 'Fatwa' is issued by Supreme Court and not by the Government and with good intentions.

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I don't think that by driving a 2.2 litre Diesel Scorpio, that one is going to seriously cause choking hazards to those 50 million people.
We are one of those 50 millions. And I definitely think we should actually check what is our car emitting and how bad is that for our health.

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Originally Posted by shankar.balan View Post
I would suggest there is more danger from those dirty little mopeds and motorbikes and Phat Phats and Share Autos that operate around the fringes of Delhi, most of which run on a combination of petrol, kerosene and are held together by chewing gum and bits of string. I also suggest that the Great and Barbaric Festival of Diwali alone, creates more and worse poisonous pollution in Delhi and other parts of India than any blessed (new generation) Diesel Car does! Why not then, ban Crackers and Fireworks during Diwali?
Those phatphat et al may be dangerous. But they definitely carry more persons per CC of engine capacity than a 2200CC luxury car in general (though these car can seat 5-7 but they seldom carry more than one person). So technically, per capita pollution from these 2000 CC car is far more than those mopeds (hardly seen on Delhi roads nowadays) and phat phats.

There are already bans and appeals on Diwali crackers after some time but norms are hardly followed. Any ways the crackers choke us for one day of a year, cars choke us 24X7.
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Old 17th December 2015, 16:11   #107
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Default re: Supreme Court bans registration of diesel cars over 2,000 cc in Delhi & NCR

Wanted to extract a lucrative deal on the Fortuner before it is banned in NCR region.

Just checked with Galaxy Toyota New delhi if they have a Fortuner readily available and if there is any deal on this.

I am surprised to know that Toyota is not registering any Fortuner in the NCR area. The dealer says that the Toyota vehicle registration system has been locked hence no registration.

They have the vehicle in stock though.
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Old 17th December 2015, 16:46   #108
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Default re: Supreme Court bans registration of diesel cars over 2,000 cc in Delhi & NCR

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Originally Posted by shankar.balan View Post
Let me put it this way in answer to your militant tone of voice.
So, I am militant for writing my opinion, but you are serene for writing yours?

Quote:
Originally Posted by shankar.balan View Post
If the government and the powers that be, were to address the issues of environmental impact, pollution, safety etc in a properly planned, holistic manner with a proper long term view, then I would be completely on board.
Half hearted, fragmented initiatives leave me cold.
Fact is, few things work in a holistic manner. Even cancer treatments are not holistic, only piecemeal. Should we not treat cancer at all till complete cure is discovered? The law and order system in the country is not holistic. Should we not have any system at all? If we are fine with all these half-hearted things, why not this ruling? At least some relief from pollution, no?
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Originally Posted by shankar.balan View Post
I will certainly air these views because I am not a socialist/ nationalist/ activist/ apologist or any other, but the fact is, that I am an honest tax payer and I have earned my money honestly.
So am I and so are most of the socialists/activists/apologists. You got to understand that there are many honest people other than you and they voice their opinion too (militant, though, it may seem to you).

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Originally Posted by shankar.balan View Post
No one, but no one, has the right to decide about what car I spend my money on, except me.
Should you, then, be free to buy a car that is not BS-IV compliant? How about not even BS-I compliant? If you are OK with that line being drawn, why not this line?


Quote:
Originally Posted by shankar.balan View Post
Governments cannot issue "Fatwas" of this nature without full and proper reasoning and even then, these should be issued if at all, only as a part of an overall "holistic" policy which encompasses all the other "ills" that we are prone to in this country of ours.
Governments and courts have constitutional mandates to issue some "Fatwas". In fact, most rules now-a-days are executive orders and not rules. Should we take away that right from Government? Not everything is holistic, but at least it is a start.

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Originally Posted by shankar.balan View Post
I don't think that by driving a 2.2 litre Diesel Scorpio, that one is going to seriously cause choking hazards to those 50 million people.
How about 100000 2.2 litre diesel scorpios? How about more? Particulate matter is already at 700 level in some places (200 is seriously dangerous).

Quote:
Originally Posted by shankar.balan View Post
I would suggest there is more danger from those dirty little mopeds and motorbikes and Phat Phats and Share Autos that operate around the fringes of Delhi, most of which run on a combination of petrol, kerosene and are held together by chewing gum and bits of string. I also suggest that the Great and Barbaric Festival of Diwali alone, creates more and worse poisonous pollution in Delhi and other parts of India than any blessed (new generation) Diesel Car does! Why not then, ban Crackers and Fireworks during Diwali?
Sure, ban Diwali. But, that has no relevance to banning or not banning diesel vehicles. Again, should we wait till every single pollutant has been addressed?

Work on long-term plan, but in the mean time, these bans will start some good things. This is exactly what the court says too: evolve long term plans, but here are some stop-gap rulings.
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Old 17th December 2015, 16:50   #109
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Default re: Supreme Court bans registration of diesel cars over 2,000 cc in Delhi & NCR

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Originally Posted by rdhawan15 View Post
Would you believe it that Mahindra's E2O costs Rs. 6 Lakhs in Delhi !!! I mean, how on earth, does the Government wants us to go green when a Nano-like electric car costs 2.5 times the Nano?

Why doesn't the Central and State Government work on a tangible plan to encourage electric cars across the board? When will they initiate a dialogue or plan? May be 15 years down the line when the US would have moved off Nissan-Leaf into a newer technology.

We need electric cars to be mass-produced and made available throughout India. And, they need to be affordable too.
Given 60% of the electricity produced in India is using Coal and Diesel, this is not the solution at the moment. Definitely a long term solution but that needs the green energy revolution to happen before we get there or at minimum renewable energy to increase. More electric vehicles will only add stress to an already struggling and polluting sector. We will get there one day but lets hope its a well thought out solution rather than a knee jerk.
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Old 17th December 2015, 17:10   #110
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Default re: Supreme Court bans registration of diesel cars over 2,000 cc in Delhi & NCR

So greenlight for all SUV owners and aspirants in NCR & Delhi to switch to Skoda Yeti, only 1968cc.
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Old 17th December 2015, 17:23   #111
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Default re: Supreme Court bans registration of diesel cars over 2,000 cc in Delhi & NCR:EDIT lifted with 1% cess

According to a recent study by IIT Kanpur, published in Economic times (Source: http://articles.economictimes.indiat...llution-pm-2-5) the biggest cause for pollution in Delhi are the trucks (24-25%), followed by two-wheeler's (18%) and lastly by passenger cars (14-15%).
By banning the diesel vehicles above 2ltr capacity, nothing much is going to change IMO. This is primarily because the number of people buying smaller diesel vehicles like hatchbacks and sedans (Swift, Dzire, Xcent, Polo) will be exempted from the list. The number of people buying smaller engine diesel cars will anyday be greater than the larger ones.
I am not sure that how much of a positive impact will this move generate. Will the pollution levels seriously come down? This seems to be questionable.
Also as the main pollutants are the trucks, the government should try to finish the East-West corridor so that the trucks who have to bypass the city, won't have to enter in the city. This type of constructive ideas can bore more fruitful results.
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Old 17th December 2015, 17:35   #112
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Default re: Supreme Court bans registration of diesel cars over 2,000 cc in Delhi & NCR:EDIT lifted with 1% cess

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Originally Posted by ashlil View Post
Should you, then, be free to buy a car that is not BS-IV compliant? How about not even BS-I compliant? If you are OK with that line being drawn, why not this line?
Ashlil, I think it is important to understand the difference between “a well thought out strategy” and a “knee jerk reaction”. Banning anything arbitrarily is almost always a knee jerk reaction. Take your case in point as quoted by me above. The point is that when we moved from BS-1 to BS-4, it was a thought through strategy. No one came and one fine day announced that all BS-1 vehicles are ‘banned’. No, they were slowly phased out. Manufacturers and fuel operators moved from BS-1 to BS-4 over a period of time. And as they will move to BS-5 and 6 in the days to come.
These situations are supposed to be ‘regulated’ and hence you have regulators. Regulators ensure that the entire ecosystem moves from one stated norm to the other. As a consumer I can only buy what the regulator has allowed me to me buy. Hence if the regulation in effect is BS-4 then surely I cannot buy a BS-1. So your example above is a bit extreme.

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Originally Posted by ashlil View Post
Work on long-term plan, but in the mean time, these bans will start some good things. This is exactly what the court says too: evolve long term plans, but here are some stop-gap rulings.
My point is that such arbitrary bans create a sense of uncertainly, which is not at all good for the business environment. On one hand we are promoting ‘Make in India’ and on the other we have such activism which makes it difficult for business to feel confident to operate in. Once again I am not saying that we shouldn't regulate, but we cannot take such haphazard decisions.

If indeed the solution is that diesel vehicles should be removed off the road, then this can be regulated too:
  • Add a cess / levy on diesel vehicles; make it an economically unviable option for people to buy
  • Put a timeframe by which all diesel sales will eventually cease
  • Ensure that people who have made investments (bought these cars in the past) are not one fine day left high & dry, provide an option so that they phase out their vehicles over a period of time
  • Provide incentives to make people buy CNG & Electric vehicles (Even today an electric car is the most uneconomical & unviable option in India. Even CNG, when you see the long lines at the CNG stations)

Take London as an example. They implemented a heavy congestion tax to drive in central London. It was not a one fine day decision which said 'okay, from tomorrow all cars are banned in London'. It was a well coordinated effort:
  • An excellent public transport in coordination with park and ride schemes
  • Technology to ensure that defaulters are caught.
  • Easy and convenient ways to pay the tax
  • Excellent pay and park facilities at the periphery of the zone

Last but not the least. Diesel SUVs ply in almost all the countries and they don't have this much of an issue. That is because they have managed to control this with a well thought strategy.
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Old 17th December 2015, 18:15   #113
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Default re: Supreme Court bans registration of diesel cars over 2,000 cc in Delhi & NCR:EDIT lifted with 1% cess

@ashlil, the replies given by you to shankar.balan seems much of disagreement and not in sync with what all the members on forum think.

I totally agree that government has not planned anything till now and has been just riding on vote bank politics. All the misdoings, ill-planning, corruption, dirty politics is beginning to boomerang. And NGT/Government/Supreme court are all going hand in hand by making the general public a scape goat. Come what may, it is only the masses that is paying up from their pocket. Days are not far when governing bodies will come and say that they want to kill you because you burp and fart too much. NGT will support and supreme court will rule in favour of governing bodies. Also i can assume that the entire lobby of Auto-mobiles majors manufacturing petrol engines have a major role to play in either promoting petrol engines or clearing their ageing stocks. Or rather the entire lobby is gunning for increase in sale of petrol cars through which government can earn more

Let me list down some measures that will definitely help.

1. One of the very good technique to control pollution is to ensure that vehicles move unrestricted on the roads and there are no bottlenecks.

2. No unauthorized parking on roadside. Rather, show parking space and then buy a car

3. Make some major bottlenecks one-way like they have in kolkata.

4. Develop alternate public transportation system.

5. Ensure that in case one wants to buy a vehicle, it will only be done thru auction basis. One who bids highest for a vehicle will buy it.

6. Ensure that new corporates/companies that want to set-up base in Delhi/NCR, have one office which should be pretty far from NCR. Employees should be willing to join that far-flung office also. For example, company XYZ wants to set up office in Gurgaon. Let them have a small administrative office in Gurgaon and entire set-up in Dharuhera/Bhiwadi etc.

7. Decentralization of Industries. Develop other cities also to provide similar infrastructure as is available in NCR. Provide incentive for setting up base there.
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Old 17th December 2015, 18:38   #114
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Default re: Supreme Court bans registration of diesel cars over 2,000 cc in Delhi & NCR:EDIT lifted with 1% cess

Since the discussion is ban on 2000cc and above diesel cars let me limit only to cars and bikes .To me right approach here is to ban vehicles based on their emission. I dont how much amount of CO,NO,CO2 does a BMW 320D emit neither do I know how much amount a 100cc Hero Honda Splendor emits.
Ideally one should baseline the emission and ban all the vehicles whose emission is beyond baseline. Be it 100cc Splendor of 3.0L V6 Diesel. If needed make the emission norms more stringent. What is stopping from enforcing BS 5 ,6 or even 7 - probably manufacturers lobby.
This shall force manufacturers to invent further, which means higher costs and hence lesser auto mobile purchase.
Levying heavy tax like Singapore is another approach to curb pollution. This shall ensure the one who buys shall take care of the pollution as well, provided the tax amount is used judiciously.
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Old 17th December 2015, 18:53   #115
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Default re: Supreme Court bans registration of diesel cars over 2,000 cc in Delhi & NCR:EDIT lifted with 1% cess

As pointed out by many, banning diesel cars above 2000 CC is a token/knee jerk reaction. To really control the pollution you need to decrease the vehicular traffic on the roads and that can only be done if there is a viable alternative. In my opinion the minimum that is required is -

1. First and foremost there has to be a wide reaching network of safe and efficient public transport which runs for at least 5AM to 2AM, as suburban trains do every where.

2. Ban trucks and Buses which exceed tail pipe emission as determined from time to time. This will require a lot of work in terms of testing and enforcement, but necessary none the less. There is no sense in allowing vehicles that contribute more than 20% of the pollution in Delhi to continue doing so.

3. Check and replace all the smaller public transport vehicle - 3 wheelers and Phat Phats, as well as old two wheelers. They contribute the next most significant percentage after trucks.

4. Increase the price of Diesel (across India) to be comparable to Petrol (and at the same time decrease the petrol prices), so that both fuels are priced same, or as in case of other countries Petrol can be marginally cheaper than Diesel.That gets rid of a major chunk of diesel vehicle clientele. In case you think that raising diesel prices will increase inflation, that is not really so, as petroleum prices are rising any way every year and the economy is absorbing the cost increase.

5. Have some sort of regulatory mechanism to check those out of state vehicles that travel to Delhi regularly. Check them for emission and if they are not fit ban their entry. Or else make the pollution laws same at least in states bordering Delhi.

6. Ensure that clean and unadulterated fuel is available across the country. Take strict action against adulterators.
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Old 17th December 2015, 19:14   #116
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Default re: Supreme Court bans registration of diesel cars over 2,000 cc in Delhi & NCR:EDIT lifted with 1% cess

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As pointed out by many, banning diesel cars above 2000 CC is a token/knee jerk reaction. To really control the pollution you need to decrease the vehicular traffic on the roads and that can only be done if there is a viable alternative. In my opinion the minimum that is required is -

1. First and foremost there has to be a wide reaching network of safe and efficient public transport which runs for at least 5AM to 2AM, as suburban trains do every where.

2. Ban trucks and Buses which exceed tail pipe emission as determined from time to time. This will require a lot of work in terms of testing and enforcement, but necessary none the less. There is no sense in allowing vehicles that contribute more than 20% of the pollution in Delhi to continue doing so.

3. Check and replace all the smaller public transport vehicle - 3 wheelers and Phat Phats, as well as old two wheelers. They contribute the next most significant percentage after trucks.

4. Increase the price of Diesel (across India) to be comparable to Petrol (and at the same time decrease the petrol prices), so that both fuels are priced same, or as in case of other countries Petrol can be marginally cheaper than Diesel.That gets rid of a major chunk of diesel vehicle clientele. In case you think that raising diesel prices will increase inflation, that is not really so, as petroleum prices are rising any way every year and the economy is absorbing the cost increase.

5. Have some sort of regulatory mechanism to check those out of state vehicles that travel to Delhi regularly. Check them for emission and if they are not fit ban their entry. Or else make the pollution laws same at least in states bordering Delhi.

6. Ensure that clean and unadulterated fuel is available across the country. Take strict action against adulterators.

Your ideas are nice, but are they really practical when Delhi has hit a threshold where it cannot wait for long term solutions? This doesn't mean to say that long term solutions are not required, but the city has hit a threshold where immediate changes are required to be atleast started.

Some comments about your points

1. Wide reaching network of safe and reliable transport cannot be achieved overnight certainly and not in a few years
2. Doable, but that is exactly what Mr. Kejriwal is saying - he could take the buses off the road if he could replace them with newer buses immediately. If you take off existing buses immediately or enforce bans, then your Point #1 takes a negative impact.
3. Same as Point 2 & 1
4. Why increase diesel prices pan india when only delhi is affected? Diesel is used by all types of supply chains and increasing them by a large amount is going to make everything expensive everywhere. Not good for the economy as it will slow down.
5. Doable - Good point In my opinion
6. Good point again, although not sure by how much it can help bring down pollution

P.S: I am not in favour of any party or governments and these are just my personal opinions to the suggestions raised
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Old 17th December 2015, 19:23   #117
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Default re: Supreme Court bans registration of diesel cars over 2,000 cc in Delhi & NCR:EDIT lifted with 1% cess

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Originally Posted by rdhawan15 View Post
There is absolutely no space or infrastructure in this tiny city to support so many people. The SC and the Government can go on making new laws and serve bans left-right and centre. But, nobody seems to be giving a thought to the fundamental problem of the city. I mean how can the city support so many people?

However, a piece-meal approach by populist Governments can only mean that more and more migrants will drop in each year and the entire land, air and water will be exploited and misused by all.

[/url]
Hey Rdhawan, I understand your point. But controlling population is not the right way. Tokyo Beijing and other big cities have 15M population and still they are pollution free or managing it. Plus immigrants add to economy. What I do agree is that govt needs create more centres of economy other than 4-5 big cities.

Denying anybody a right to move to Delhi is just wrong on so many levels. My family moved to delhi 100 years ago so that does not give me the right to stop people moving in delhi now. Also, this influx of immigration has habilitated and developed Delhi. Before 1910 delhi was not even among the big cities of North let alone India. All big cities of the world are based on immigration NY, London, Berlin, Paris, Bejing,Tokyo.

Last edited by vagu : 17th December 2015 at 19:24.
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Old 17th December 2015, 19:34   #118
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Default re: Supreme Court bans registration of diesel cars over 2,000 cc in Delhi & NCR:EDIT lifted with 1% cess

With all the noise being made about the ruling, we need to think about a few points.

1. What will be the actual number of sales reduced during this period and the quantum of pollution reduction (Say in Delhi people on an average buy a 1000 vehicles over 2000cc). Most of these are high end vehicles with Diesel engines that are probably cleaner than our current standards.

2. Diesel is being targeted here because Diesel vehicles emit more particulates but a more sensible view to be taken is how good the fuel is in the first place, properly refined fuel will burn cleaner and reduce pollution.

3. Someone mentioned Diesel gensets, I'm not sure if these have any emission norms to follow, that needs to be looked in to.

4. This ban for the time being would affect mostly rich people, who probably will buy two smaller diesels to get the better mileage. Most people, from the average Joe to the million bucks guy still have the Kitna deti hai mentality which is why Diesels got so popular in the first place in addition to the sops that existed.

Conclusion from my point of view, a knee jerk reaction to a problem that has had a blind eye turned to it for far too long a time.

Instead a better approach could have been taken, enforce the emission norms and don't exempt anyone or anything from it (esp. Commercial vehicles which would make very good battlefield smoke screen emitters). If they want to ban something, ban all ICE powered devices and vehicles not conforming to emission norms permanently.

Just my 2 cents on this, I drive a small petrol car, but enjoy the fun of driving a nice diesel car (the turbo kick) but would love both to be as clean as technology today can be.

And as for auctioning cars goes, please provide proper transport first before going the Singapore way.
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Old 17th December 2015, 19:52   #119
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Default re: Supreme Court bans registration of diesel cars over 2,000 cc in Delhi & NCR:EDIT lifted with 1% cess

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So greenlight for all SUV owners and aspirants in NCR & Delhi to switch to Skoda Yeti, only 1968cc.
Ha ha Lurker. Im speaking from exactly that position!
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Old 17th December 2015, 20:34   #120
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Default re: Supreme Court bans registration of diesel cars over 2,000 cc in Delhi & NCR:EDIT lifted with 1% cess

I wonder if Harish Salve or Sunita Narain (of pesticides in colas flop show) have suggested the alternatives to the low quality diesel which is dispensed at pumps. Alternatives like City Diesel where Particulate Matter comes down to 80% and is already available in Europe. I'm sure people who buy more than 2000cc diesel cars would happily buy City Diesel.

But passing an order is so easy if it hits the rich and politically irrelevant class (number of votes).

Similarly who conducted the IIT Kanpur study of pollution in Delhi - students or experts in the field? Was that study peer reviewed? and why IIT Kanpur, why not IIT Delhi?

The whole argument - widely disseminated by visual media - that diesel is 7 time more pollutant is wrong. Harish Salve and Sunita Narain just want to be shown as valiant anti-pollution crusader humbling the 'filthy' rich and their automobiles.

Emissions from Diesel Vehicles
Diesel fuel contains more energy per litre than petrol and coupled with the fact that diesel engines are more efficient than petrol engines, diesel cars are more efficient to run. Diesel fuel contains no lead and emissions of the regulated pollutants (carbon monoxide, hydrocarbons and nitrogen oxides) are lower than those from petrol cars without a catalyst. However, when compared to petrol cars with a catalyst, diesels have higher emissions of NOx and much higher emissions of particulate matter.

Cold Start Emissions
Emissions from cars are greatest when an engine is cold. On a cold day a petrol car may take up to 10km to warm up and operate at maximum efficiency; a diesel car may only take 5km. Consequently, diesel cars produce less unburned fuel during a cold start, which will result in lower emissions of carbon monoxide and hydrocarbons. Diesel cars could make a significant impact on air quality in urban areas where most cold starts occur, especially when it is considered that a catalyst on a petrol car would take several minutes to reach its operating temperature. Overall, diesel cars emit less hydrocarbons, carbon monoxide and lead pollution than petrol cars, but produce more noxious gases and significantly more particulates.

Despite much debate over which car, petrol or diesel, is cleaner, weighing up the advantages and disadvantages is not easy. For example, diesel cars have been promoted, as they produce less CO and HC on average when compared to petrol cars, and they have greater fuel economy producing less CO2 per km. However recent health concerns about particulate matter have given diesels a less environmentally-friendly image, as have the higher emissions of nitrogen oxides compared with petrol cars. As a comparison, petrol cars produce virtually no particulate matter, take longer to warm up, produce more carbon dioxide per mile on average, and emissions of the regulated pollutants are higher.

City Diesel
City diesel is a petroleum based lower emission diesel developed in Sweden but now available in many European Countries including the UK. Exhaust emissions from vehicles fuelled with city diesel compare favourably with exhaust emissions from equivalent vehicles fuelled with conventional diesel. The main benefit of city diesel is that its combustion reduces particulate emissions by 34 - 84% depending on engine type, duty cycle, test basis and type of particulate measured. An additional benefit of city diesel is that it is a low sulphur fuel, which is necessary for the optimum running of oxidation catalytic converters.
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