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Old 17th December 2015, 21:21   #121
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Default re: Supreme Court bans registration of diesel cars over 2,000 cc in Delhi & NCR:EDIT lifted with 1% cess

Everyone (activists / courts) seems to be bothered about banning the vehicles but hardly anyone is bothered about the repeated slippage in deadlines in providing cleaner BS4/BS5 fuels across India by our refineries. This would have definitely made things better for sure.

Last edited by n_naik : 17th December 2015 at 21:24.
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Old 17th December 2015, 21:36   #122
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Default Re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinodvayyat View Post
Currently the govt, the courts, NGT are looking out for any opportunity available to bring the pollution levels down and these are all emergency measures that are taken in order to aid the same.

Emergency measures in general may not be the best solutions available - that is there by definition. You are open to give feedback to the administrative body ie. Delhi Govt.


Sadly running the govt is a different thing - we know that Delhi is infamous for atrocities against women. The govt is concerned about possible issues with women using public transportation at night - so they said that they are looking forward to not apply the rules for women. The final decision will be available by Dec 26, as per govt.

I don't know and even you don't - better shoot the question after final details are available. Or you can send the concern to Delhi govt feedback mail ID.

You are contradicting all over again - after all the story, why are you still telling that only 6% is targeted? The order from the SC is different which overrides anything else. The other measures taken by Delhi govt or NGT are different anyway.
As I repeating from the starting of this thread, vehicles overall contribute only 6% of particulate pollution. So banning vehicles with a diesel engines above 2000cc will not even reduce pollution by even 0.5%.

What emergency measures you are talking about? One with zero impact? A true emergency measure would target the majority source of pollution, in this case road dust and dust from construction sites.

If women are banned from driving in Saudi Arabia its a ridiculous rule and against human rights. However if men are banned from driving on alternate days ,its progressive? Hypocrisy at its best.

Consider the imaginary scenario that men were exempted from this stupid odd even rule and only women had to follow it , there would a huge outcry and everyone with a twitter account would cry discrimination!

Gender equality means equality of sexes . Period!

If the security scenario demands women drive cars daily , then the whole rule is unfeasible and should be scrapped . No special exemptions.

If I lived in Delhi and the rule gets inplemented , I would go to court because this violates my fundamental right to equality.

Why is that the rule applicable from 8 AM to 8 PM? Cars don't pollute between 8 PM to 8 AM or what?

A family with 2 cars would circumvent this rule easily with the lady driving the car with the banned digit and switching the car daily and the guy driving the number that is allowed.

This freaking country can't implement traffic rules properly yet wants to implement an odd even rule.

Why are government vehicles exempt?

Considering all the exemptions,I believe the only people hetting affected will be the single male living alone in Delhi. LOL!

Whether the action taken by the court is different from the State governement and the NGT doesn't matter. What matters is why are they targeting a trivial source of pollution?

This lets me belive the Court is being brainwashed by certain petitioners and the anti- diesel lobby like Mr. Harish Salve and the CSE who want to improve their image as anti-pollution crusaders and that is plain WRONG!

Last edited by Ragavsr : 17th December 2015 at 21:42.
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Old 17th December 2015, 22:02   #123
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Default re: Supreme Court bans registration of diesel cars over 2,000 cc in Delhi & NCR:EDIT lifted with 1% cess

I was reading in Newspaper (Indian express ) that euro 6 which is implemented in usa has lead to hardly any emission difference between petrol or diesel vehicle . moreover overall efficiency has increased . manufacturing lobbying would come into picture but , point to be considered person spending 20 to 30 lakh on a SUV won't mind spending additional 1 to 2 lakh for euro 6. And small car engine will always enjoy economy of scale .

No doubt about the adulterated fuel. A stringent mechanism with random inspection on petrol pumps doing these mischief should be looked into.

But the sad part about our judicial activism and these tribunals . that day is not very far when they would say no one is allowed to wear black clothes because they are strictly meant for judiciary . With increasing number of pending cases they should focus on their core activity ..

These car companies are clever enough to come up with something new , if ford ecosports 1 L turbo boost can compete 1.5L I am sure bigger brands can do far better , though they are adopting the small engine concept abroad now small engine with turbo booster
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Old 17th December 2015, 23:06   #124
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Default Re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragavsr View Post
As I repeating from the starting of this thread, vehicles overall contribute only 6% of particulate pollution. So banning vehicles with a diesel engines above 2000cc will not even reduce pollution by even 0.5%.
First of all - you are arguments are completely flawed here. The pollutants from a vehicle is not same as dust pollutants. There are various types of pollutants ranging from Sulpher Dioxide, Carbon Monoxide, Nitrogen Dioxide, PM2.5, PM10 etc etc. PM10 is mostly caused due to construction dust. So while you want to bring down the cause of PM10, you will definitely want to work on causes of other pollutants - that is exactly what is happening here. And Air Quality Index is differently measured for each of these pollutants. Any of them going beyond limits gives the city a Severe status - This is what you see in the media when they roam around with that device. So going by percentage merely doesn't make any sense!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragavsr View Post
What emergency measures you are talking about? One with zero impact? A true emergency measure would target the majority source of pollution, in this case road dust and dust from construction sites.
Explained above well enough - let us stop debating on this percentage math

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragavsr View Post
If women are banned from driving in Saudi Arabia its a ridiculous rule and against human rights. However if men are banned from driving on alternate days ,its progressive? Hypocrisy at its best.
I've not heard men being raped in Delhi - beg you pardon. I've been a Delhi resident for quite sometime - I know what it is like to roam around after 10pm for a girl. Have you seen this place called Munirka - that is where this Nirbhaya incident happened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragavsr View Post
Gender equality means equality of sexes . Period!
There is no question of gender equality here mate!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragavsr View Post
If I lived in Delhi and the rule gets inplemented , I would go to court because this violates my fundamental right to equality.
Now to the point - Delhi has number of vehicles equivalent to total number of vehicles in 2-3 major cities of India. Coupled with this Delhi battles with Smog problems through out entire day for around 2 months during Winter - the air you breath in at these times will smell like Kerosene - it is not like Chennai - sorry mate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragavsr View Post
Why is that the rule applicable from 8 AM to 8 PM? Cars don't pollute between 8 PM to 8 AM or what?
Do you work in night shifts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragavsr View Post
Why are government vehicles exempt?
Source please! I've read almost everywhere that govt vehicles are not exempted!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragavsr View Post
This lets me belive the Court is being brainwashed by certain petitioners and the anti- diesel lobby like Mr. Harish Salve and the CSE who want to improve their image as anti-pollution crusaders and that is plain WRONG!
Thankfully their brains are washed well enough!
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Old 17th December 2015, 23:26   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jose.solorider View Post
I was reading in Newspaper (Indian express ) that euro 6 which is implemented in usa has lead to hardly any emission difference between petrol or diesel vehicle . moreover overall efficiency has increased .

Well if India had the equal petrol and diesel prices, just like the US, we wouldn't have had this diesel issue in the first place. The only reason people are talking about this order from the Courts on diesel is because they are sad that they can't save that extra buck, that they are used to saving with diesel now. (Then they buy a new phone every year with what they saved)

Let's be honest and think about how many diesel takers will be there if the diesel and petrol prices were equal. We are just taking advantage of the diesel prices, which are low in the first place because of our country's farmers, who actually need these subsidies.

Recently we saw how petrol cars picked up sales when the diesel and petrol prices got pretty close. Please stop defending diesel cars just because it's cheaper to run. What will people get by saving money when they won't live long enough because of the pollution they're causing?

Though I agree that the court should've not have banned every diesel vehicle above 2000cc, without putting much thought to it , but I say it's still a good first step by them, because something is better than nothing. They have time till March now to make a better judgement. Also if people really care about the emissions, mileage benefits (trust me, it's still the money) and the environment , then get a petrol car with a CNG kit. Don't abuse diesel because of its low rates.
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Old 17th December 2015, 23:28   #126
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Default Re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragavsr View Post
If women are banned from driving in Saudi Arabia its a ridiculous rule and against human rights. However if men are banned from driving on alternate days ,its progressive? Hypocrisy at its best.
Wrong comparison. Saudi banned women drivers for long, India isn't banning men drivers. It is only restricting vehicles driven by them on certain days.

There is an easy way around this - Buy a electric car, which I am sure will be exempt from this rule - as it doesn't pollute.

Quote:
Gender equality means equality of sexes . Period!
Not so. Equality never means law is blind to disadvantages. If it was the case, then law can't mandate special privileges for disabled. Or more security for VIPs or threatened folks.

Women's safety concerns are real, thus this is a positive discrimination that law allows.

Quote:
If I lived in Delhi and the rule gets inplemented , I would go to court because this violates my fundamental right to equality.
Really?

If someone tries, it'll be turned down by courts. Courts have supported many discriminatory measures for decades. Reservation itself is an example.

What if everyone demanded a equal right to pollute? Or if non-car owners demanded heavy compensation from polluters?

You may criticize the Odd-Even formula, not the exemption to women on grounds of security (it is sort of logical).

Quote:
Why is that the rule applicable from 8 AM to 8 PM? Cars don't pollute between 8 PM to 8 AM or what?
It is indeed absurd. They should have made it 'peak hour' specific instead. i.e. 8am-11am and 5pm-9pm.

Quote:
A family with 2 cars would circumvent this rule easily with the lady driving the car with the banned digit and switching the car daily and the guy driving the number that is allowed.
Yes. But, any rule has exceptions. You can't stop making rules thinking of exceptions.

Quote:
This freaking country can't implement traffic rules properly yet wants to implement an odd even rule.
This country doesn't enforce most laws anyway, should we stop making laws or do away with existing ones? That won't be right.

Quote:
Why are government vehicles exempt?
Good question. It shouldn't be. This rule isn't perfect. A LOT LOT More needs to be done.

Quote:
What matters is why are they targeting a trivial source of pollution?
Each drop counts. They need to do far more.

I'd prefer they ban,

- Ban Diesel all together for vehicles, except for trucks bringing supplies and long distance buses/LCVs.
- Convert all public commercial transport vehicles to CNG
- Ban all single rider fossil fuel cars/SUV/MUV. Electric cars & low power petrol cars with women drivers can be exempt.
- Restrict power of Petrol cars too. High end petrol cars too have higher emission.
- Ban two wheelers older than 10yrs.
- Increase fuel prices to the level of sensible countries (like UK/France/Singapore etc), where fuel costs over Rs.100/liter.
- Incentives for clean transport & solar charging infrastructure.
- Mandatory Punishment to muncipal engineers/officers if dirt tracks are found on road (which rises dust).

Quote:

This lets me belive the Court is being brainwashed by certain petitioners and the anti- diesel lobby like Mr. Harish Salve and the CSE who want to improve their image as anti-pollution crusaders and that is plain WRONG!
Thank heavens for public spirited folks fighting this issue. My right to drive a vehicle is not greater than my fellow man's right to clean air. We need harsh measures (just like drunkards need intervention for de-addiction).

It'll be hard no doubt. But, we need to start and then demand better public transport, cleaner roads from govt. Currently we tend to compensate by private vehicles.

This is not a choice. We can't let our children be drowned in smoke. Delhi already has pollution far above prescribed limit for all of 365 days . Even my city, Bangalore, has 77% polluted days!

And these are not as absurd as it sounds. Many countries are planning to ban fossil fuel vehicles all together within next couple of decades. Even some states in US are contemplating this.

We need to change<period>. We need to do this in war footing.
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Old 17th December 2015, 23:29   #127
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Default Re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinodvayyat View Post
I've not heard men being raped in Delhi - beg you pardon. I've been a Delhi resident for quite sometime - I know what it is like to roam around after 10pm for a girl. Have you seen this place called Munirka - that is where this Nirbhaya incident happened.

There is no question of gender equality here mate!

Now to the point - Delhi has number of vehicles equivalent to total number of vehicles in 2-3 major cities of India. Coupled with this Delhi battles with Smog problems through out entire day for around 2 months during Winter - the air you breath in at these times will smell like Kerosene - it is not like Chennai - sorry mate.

Do you work in night shifts?

Thankfully their brains are washed well enough!
I will leave aside the percentages for now and come back with proper evidence later.

The question is about pollution I believe. Why do u drag in law and order issues?

If you can drag in law and order issues then I can drag in gender equality.

Exception being granted to women alone is against the right to equality. Why should the males alone be penalised for driving cars?

If the rule is to be implemented,there should be no exceptions. If there are law and order issues the whole thing should be scrapped .

Men being raped or not is irrelevant to the discussion. If the Saudi ban on women drivers is bigoted and wrong , this is equally bigoted.

Can you tell me how the government will control the lady in the house from switching cars daily with the lady in the house driving around with the banned serial number while the guy drives the allowed serial?

If this is allowed to happen , most families with two cars are gonna this rule using this loophole.

Why should men alone bear the brunt of controlling vehicular pollution?
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Old 17th December 2015, 23:54   #128
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Default Re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

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Originally Posted by PatchyBoy View Post
Exactly. The pollution is created by rampant usage of fossil fuelled vehicles, which are poorly maintained - mostly public vehicles like trucks and buses. All these measures, even if strictly enforced will only help reduce pollution by a negligible percentage. IMHO, NGT & SC are barking up the wrong tree.
One fact that is commonly ignored is that majority of the pollution is not due to burning of fossil fuel. The major chunk is due to dust and particulate matter emitted from power plants and industries. Banning diesel cars are just low hanging fruits, government probably wants to show that they are doing something.
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Old 17th December 2015, 23:59   #129
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Default Re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragavsr View Post
I will leave aside the percentages for now and come back with proper evidence later.

The question is about pollution I believe. Why do u drag in law and order issues?

If you can drag in law and order issues then I can drag in gender equality.

Exception being granted to women alone is against the right to equality. Why should the males alone be penalised for driving cars?

If the rule is to be implemented,there should be no exceptions. If there are law and order issues the whole thing should be scrapped .

Men being raped or not is irrelevant to the discussion. If the Saudi ban on women drivers is bigoted and wrong , this is equally bigoted.

Can you tell me how the government will control the lady in the house from switching cars daily with the lady in the house driving around with the banned serial number while the guy drives the allowed serial?

If this is allowed to happen , most families with two cars are gonna this rule using this loophole.

Why should men alone bear the brunt of controlling vehicular pollution?
  • Women are exempted because of law and order issue.
  • Rules are always with exceptions.
  • I have two cars, both have odd numbers. Now, what do I do? Both cars go in different directions at different times and perform different duties.
  • Vehicular pollution is extremely serious and dangerous issue and need urgent attention. Someone had to bear the brunt.
  • Banning vehicles of 2000cc and above is just a part of judgement. Overall there are many more measures that are to be implemented. Please read them.
  • People who is buying a vehicle that is above 2000cc capacity engine can are in minority. They can wait for three to four months for their car. Hell is not breaking lose for them. I am one of them.
  • Please be considerate and imagine how bad it is to live in NCR
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Old 18th December 2015, 00:05   #130
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Default Re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

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Originally Posted by hkollar View Post
Wrong comparison. Saudi banned women drivers for long, India isn't banning men drivers. It is only restricting vehicles driven by them on certain days.

Not so. Equality never means law is blind to disadvantages. If it was the case, then law can't mandate special privileges for disabled. Or more security for VIPs or threatened folks.

Women's safety concerns are real, thus this is a positive discrimination that law allows.

Really?

If someone tries, it'll be turned down by courts. Courts have supported many discriminatory measures for decades. Reservation itself is an example.

You may criticize the Odd-Even formula, not the exemption to women on grounds of security (it is sort of logical).

It is indeed absurd. They should have made it 'peak hour' specific instead. i.e. 8am-11am and 5pm-9pm.

Yes. But, any rule has exceptions. You can't stop making rules thinking of exceptions.

Each drop counts. They need to do far more.

I'd prefer they ban,

- Ban Diesel all together for vehicles, except for trucks bringing supplies and long distance buses/LCVs.
- Convert all public commercial transport vehicles to CNG
- Ban all single rider fossil fuel cars/SUV/MUV. Electric cars & low power petrol cars with women drivers can be exempt.
- Restrict power of Petrol cars too. High end petrol cars too have higher emission.
- Ban two wheelers older than 10yrs.
- Increase fuel prices to the level of sensible countries (like UK/France/Singapore etc), where fuel costs over Rs.100/liter.
- Incentives for clean transport & solar charging infrastructure.
- Mandatory Punishment to muncipal engineers/officers if dirt tracks are found on road (which rises dust).



Thank heavens for public spirited folks fighting this issue. My right to drive a vehicle is not greater than my fellow man's right to clean air. We need harsh measures (just like drunkards need intervention for de-addiction).

This is not a choice. We can't let our children be drowned in smoke. Delhi already has pollution far above prescribed limit for all of 365 days . Even my city, Bangalore, has 77% polluted days!

And these are not as absurd as it sounds. Many countries are planning to ban fossil fuel vehicles all together within next couple of decades. Even some states in US are contemplating this.
This is in effect a ban on 50 % of all male drivers on a particular day. A ban in whatever name is a ban.

Disabled folks or VIPs and threatened people who get special privileges don't form 50% of the total population like women do. If 50% of the population claims special privileges, there would be utter chaos.

I believe the rule is gonna apply only from 8 AM - 8 PM. So if there are security concerns, that should be addressed first before controlling pollution.

Reservation is a sad legacy , a blot on the Indian constitution.

The court can't ban reservation because its enshrined in the Indian constitution. I believe that the exemption for women from the odd even rule is not .

Be it the Domestic Violence Act /Dowry Act, the courts have come out harshly against false cases and have infact recommended Domestic Violence/ Dowry act be changed from non bailable to a bailable offence because the majority of these cases were false and were intended for revenge.

This above observation is of the courts' , not mine. The courts have been fairly neutral.

I would come down a bit and say allowing solo female drivers to be exempt is okay and too on a thin standing considering the timing 8 am - 8 PM the rules apply.

Exemption for females travelling in groups is on weak ground and should not be granted.

The government would be better advised to create car pool lanes( gender neutral ) which would encourage car pooling.

I am infact more environmentally conscious than most people commenting here . Just that I don't support stupid or biased ideas. I get close to 80% of my electrical supply from the solar panels on the rooftop of my house.
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Old 18th December 2015, 00:21   #131
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Default re: Supreme Court bans registration of diesel cars over 2,000 cc in Delhi & NCR:EDIT lifted with 1% cess

All those who are cynical about the Court/NGT attempts to clean up our act would do well to read what's happening in China. China is making some aggressive moves to electrify its transport in near future. It also sees huge opportunity in electric space.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeld...m-brother-nut/


I hope India could do the same. Easier to capture carbon & SPM at the power production point (even if we have to produce coal based power). But, I think we will move towards cleaner energy fast enough - even if it is a bit more expensive.
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Old 18th December 2015, 00:21   #132
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Default Re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragavsr View Post
Disabled folks or VIPs and threatened people who get special privileges don't form 50% of the total population like women do. If 50% of the population claims special privileges, there would be utter chaos.

I believe the rule is gonna apply only from 8 AM - 8 PM. So if there are security concerns, that should be addressed first before controlling pollution.

Reservation is a sad legacy , a blot on the Indian constitution.

Be it the Domestic Violence Act /Dowry Act, the courts have come out harshly against false cases and have infact recommended Domestic Violence/ Dowry act be changed from non bailable to a bailable offence because the majority of these cases were false and were intended for revenge.
I would come down a bit and say allowing solo female drivers to be exempt is okay and too on a thin standing considering the timing 8 am - 8 PM the rules apply.

Exemption for females travelling in groups is on weak ground and should not be granted.

The government would be better advised to create car pool lanes( gender neutral ) which would encourage car pooling.

I am infact more environmentally conscious than most people commenting here . Just that I don't support stupid or biased ideas. I get close to 80% of my electrical supply from the solar panels on the rooftop of my house.
Why are you taking this discussion to different tangent? This Supreme Court's ruling had nothing to do with gender equality or reservation. Why don't you read the judgement before commenting here?
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Old 18th December 2015, 00:22   #133
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Default Re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

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Originally Posted by Ragavsr View Post
I will leave aside the percentages for now and come back with proper evidence later.
Thanks for the understanding!

I've replied point by point and law and order issue came up since you questioned on why women might get exempted. Peace.

Last edited by vinodvayyat : 18th December 2015 at 00:30.
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Old 18th December 2015, 00:26   #134
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Default Re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

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Originally Posted by sourabhzen View Post
  • Rules are always with exceptions.
  • I have two cars, both have odd numbers. Now, what do I do? Both cars go in different directions at different times and perform different duties.
  • Banning vehicles of 2000cc and above is just a part of judgement. Overall there are many more measures that are to be implemented. Please read them.
  • People who is buying a vehicle that is above 2000cc capacity engine can are in minority. They can wait for three to four months for their car. Hell is not breaking lose for them.
  • Please be considerate and imagine how bad it is to live in NCR
The exceptions here seem to apply for 75% of the population.( Assuming 50% women population overall + half of the men allowed to drive ) . The exceptions seem to be bigger than the rule.

Tough luck if u have two vehicles of the same sequence.

The other measures seem to be not getting proper importance . That is what I am trying to highlight.

If this ban on 2000cc and above is only for 3 months, its even more funny!

What will stop people from using the so called luxurious and polluting diesel vehicles next winter if the ban is temporary?


I can empathize.

I would support a wholesome ban on diesel cars than this tamasha.

What would stop people from registering vehicles in other states?

The long term solution is moving large scale polluting/ manufacturing industries far away from all metros be it NCR, Mumbai ,Bangalore or Chennai for very different reasons.

The recent floods in Chennai were due to huge lakes surrounding Chennai and the rivers being enroached for factories and housing.

The government here was the first offender. All the industrial parks promoted by the government are on encroached lake beds. The airport runaway is on a bridge built across the river and I am not kidding. No wonder it got heavily flooded.

Last edited by Ragavsr : 18th December 2015 at 00:30.
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Old 18th December 2015, 00:28   #135
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Default Re: National Green Tribunal says, 10 year old Diesel Vehicles banned in Delhi

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Originally Posted by sourabhzen View Post
Why are you taking this discussion to different tangent? This Supreme Court's ruling had nothing to do with gender equality or reservation. Why don't you read the judgement before commenting here?
I will stop commenting on the odd even rule. Sorry for the OT.

Will not post any further OT.
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