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Old 21st December 2015, 13:55   #46
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Default Re: Picture of thief buying a car on fake demand draft (Rajasthan) - Please help locate / identify h

It will still stop - and should already have stopped if you read a succession of income tax rules. There are certain loopholes but they are being plugged one by one.

http://www.charteredclub.com/section-40a3/

There is also a gradual trend to prohibit higher value cash transactions, gradually. Already done for property in the 2015 budget.

http://indianexpress.com/article/bus...ney-in-realty/

If you want to not take a loan but pay for the car out of your own resources, please do NEFT / RTGS. Paying for anything with a bag of cash will inevitably attract tax scrutiny, whether currently allowed or not.

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Old 21st December 2015, 14:55   #47
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Default Re: Picture of thief buying a car on fake demand draft (Rajasthan) - Please help locate / identify h

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Originally Posted by hserus View Post
It will still stop - and should already have stopped if you read a succession of income tax rules. There are certain loopholes but they are being plugged one by one.

http://www.charteredclub.com/section-40a3/

There is also a gradual trend to prohibit higher value cash transactions, gradually. Already done for property in the 2015 budget.

http://indianexpress.com/article/bus...ney-in-realty/

If you want to not take a loan but pay for the car out of your own resources, please do NEFT / RTGS. Paying for anything with a bag of cash will inevitably attract tax scrutiny, whether currently allowed or not.
That rule only prohibits payment of advance more than 20000 rupees . It doesn't stop people from lets say paying
the registered value of property in cash.

Moreover, cash in real estate transactions is mostly the black portion, that is the money apart from the registered value because of undervaluation of property and reducing registration taxes.

So curtailing black money transaction in real estate is beyond the reach of central governent. The state government has to constantly update the property values and there should be incentive for the buyer to declare the actual value by lowering property registration taxes.

In TamilNadu for example, the registration tax is 7% while its much lower in other states. If its reduced to 2-3% a lot of buyers will declare original value and I am sure that the government will not lose out on revenue.

Yes, if there is a safety concern , I use DD. I believe RTGS has a transaction limit.

I wasn't aware of fraudulent DD before this and I am thankful for team bhp in exposing this. I would be vigilant and cross verify with the bank before I accept any DDs in the future.

The issue with paying or accepting cash is the beed for someone who is good enough in counting and pulling out fake notes.

There will be no tax scrutiny if the other person doesn't report it as in the case of real estate transactions.

Last edited by Ragavsr : 21st December 2015 at 15:00.
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Old 21st December 2015, 15:04   #48
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Default Re: Picture of thief buying a car on fake demand draft (Rajasthan) - Please help locate / identify h

Laws and regulations are made for the vast majority of people who indulge in some practice. You simply hate credit cards so you prefer cash payments. Most other people hate being bothered with things like tax returns so they prefer cash. Those other people are far more numerous than you are

As I said that is currently allowed but this is a gradually tightening net and even more so as the income tax people keep computerizing and start getting 360 degree visibility into transactions and payments. So regardless of any of us prefering not to be bothered with offers for loan on card etc etc - we're stuck with using payment instruments anyway.

Also - as that section I posted says, you will not be able to claim depreciation on the car if you plan to do so after having bought it in cash.
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Old 21st December 2015, 17:05   #49
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Default Re: Picture of thief buying a car on fake demand draft (Rajasthan) - Please help locate / identify h

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Originally Posted by Ragavsr View Post

Yes, if there is a safety concern , I use DD. I believe RTGS has a transaction limit.
RTGS has no upper limit. The minimum amount should be 2L else it will be NEFT.
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Old 21st December 2015, 18:48   #50
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I thought its a new trick. No, I was wrong.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/shifti...warning-2.html (Demand Draft Fraud: Warning)

Last edited by ajitstreet : 21st December 2015 at 19:18.
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Old 22nd December 2015, 11:00   #51
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Default Re: Picture of thief buying a car on fake demand draft (Rajasthan) - Please help locate / identify h

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Originally Posted by hserus View Post
Does he always strike at the end of a month / quarter / year when sales people are under pressure to boost sales and make their quotas, to get their incentive? That would explain why many sensible controls are bypassed with a "make the sale and do the paperwork later" type approach.
Don't forget the other side of the story.

Usually when someone needs the delivery immediately, their negotiation power is seriously limited. In these cases, the dealers end up making good margin. As someone said earlier, dealer in the excitement to not lose such a customer (and all the money to be earned), will bypass the rules.
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Old 22nd December 2015, 12:51   #52
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Default Re: Picture of thief buying a car on fake demand draft (Rajasthan) - Please help locate / identify h

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Originally Posted by vjjustin View Post
Don't forget the other side of the story.

Usually when someone needs the delivery immediately, their negotiation power is seriously limited. In these cases, the dealers end up making good margin. As someone said earlier, dealer in the excitement to not lose such a customer (and all the money to be earned), will bypass the rules.
That is what audits and business controls are for, but just how many car dealers will invest into those? For those that don't the best way is to follow the old shopkeeper axiom "aaj nakad, kal udhaar". Make sure the money is entirely in your hand and all formalities are completed regardless of how much in a hurry the customer is.

Don't release the car with TC plates - not allowed by RTO rules anyway - and especially don't release based on vague promises.
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Old 23rd December 2015, 12:31   #53
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Default Re: Picture of thief buying a car on fake demand draft (Rajasthan) - Please help locate / identify h

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Originally Posted by Sinner666 View Post
Dealerships usually have telephone numbers for most of the banks, and they call up and verify the DD before releasing the car.

At least that is what happened, when we bought our Etios Liva yesterday. Got the DD from the bank, sent a whatsapp picture of it to the sales person, who forwarded it to his accounts dept. who verified the DD from the bank. (Don't know if there is a centralized number for each bank to verify DDs or they call up the individual branches).
Walked into the dealership a couple of hours later, handed over the DD, completed the formalities, and drove out in another hour.

And yeah, 90% of the car value was financed by the bank. Don't know how this guy pulled it off.
I also find it tough to digest that it can be done without involvement of a Bank official and someone from the dealership. There have been instances of such fraud in Insurance sector while claims for deceased are made fraudulently.

As Far as the stolen car is concerned, the chassis and Engine No. can be changed, and a fake RC can also be obtained. Many time recovered vehicles are found with such changes done to them.
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Old 23rd December 2015, 14:45   #54
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Default Re: Picture of thief buying a car on fake demand draft (Rajasthan) - Please help locate / identify h

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As Far as the stolen car is concerned, the chassis and Engine No. can be changed, and a fake RC can also be obtained. Many time recovered vehicles are found with such changes done to them.
I do not understand this part which comes up time and again. It is NOT a stolen car (which actually means that the car is in someone else's name and the thief took off with it).

I do not think this is required at all. The car is in the fraudsters name, registered as such and all he has to do is sell it off. No more forgery, no more fake documents and no disassembling of parts are required.

The sale will be a legitimate transaction and the buyer (buying from the fraudster) will enjoy all the benefits. Also, it is not as if the buyer will hold some part of the payment till the transfer to his name is complete. He will just pay, take the car along with all the documents (which are legit) and take off to the registration office.

If he had to go to the extent of changing Engine/Chassis no and fake RC, why would he take the pain of defrauding the dealer (with his photos etc). He would have been better off with a stolen vehicle where his identity would be safe.

Last edited by vinit.merchant : 23rd December 2015 at 14:52.
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Old 23rd December 2015, 15:13   #55
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Default Re: Picture of thief buying a car on fake demand draft (Rajasthan) - Please help locate / identify h

RTOs in theory have lists of stolen car license / engine / chassis numbers so that they can prevent re registration. Of course unless bribery is involved, then all such precautions are out of the window.
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Old 23rd December 2015, 19:09   #56
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Default Re: Picture of thief buying a car on fake demand draft (Rajasthan) - Please help locate / identify h

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Originally Posted by vinit.merchant View Post
It is NOT a stolen car (which actually means that the car is in someone else's name and the thief took off with it).

The sale will be a legitimate transaction and the buyer (buying from the fraudster) will enjoy all the benefits.
A sale should involve a payment of an agreed price.

Payment of that price can be in advance, at the time of delivery or deferred to a future date.

Without a payment, there is no sale.


On a lighter note, it is usually said in law: "Let the buyer beware." Here we are seeing a case of "let the seller beware" !
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Old 23rd December 2015, 19:46   #57
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Default Re: Picture of thief buying a car on fake demand draft (Rajasthan) - Please help locate / identify h

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Originally Posted by arnabchak View Post
Dear Akshay
As expected, the showroom did not really pay heed to his existence till the time he enquired about the Endeavour.

Everyone started now!!

He spoke to a Sales Exec. who immediately after speaking to him, ran inside(presumably to inform his boss) all excited.

The boss comes running and offers our "so called nondescript" gentleman coffee/cold drinks or for Heaven's Sake whatever he wished!!
Lesson learnt: Humility and Respect(for so called people who may not afford good clothes for whatever reason!!)
I agree with you!
i work in luxry marketing and most of our customers do not "look" like what you would expect a luxury commodities customer would look like
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Old 25th December 2015, 15:10   #58
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Default Re: Picture of thief buying a car on fake demand draft (Rajasthan) - Please help locate / identify h

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Originally Posted by The Rationalist View Post
There is nothing of that sort standard procedure. We have bought two cars in last 5 years and they didn't insist on a photo at all. There are lot of people who doesn't bother getting photographed either. And clicking a photo doesn't amount to having proof of delivering a vehicle, for that there is a document which gets signed by the owner.
Its more of a recent development , I guess. When I took delivery of my Polo, the photographer was very particular that the no. plate was visible.

Signed documents are valid proofs, yes, but one can always allege forgery. In legal matters whatever additional proofs you have always makes your case stronger. I remember when we bought a property from a bank loan defualter on which bank had a lien, my advocate insisted on taking a photo of me receiving the keys from the seller in the presence of the bank manager in front of the premises!

Last edited by Santoshbhat : 25th December 2015 at 15:16.
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Old 26th December 2015, 17:54   #59
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Default Re: Picture of thief buying a car on fake demand draft (Rajasthan) - Please help locate / identify h

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Originally Posted by Ragavsr View Post
I can tell you that making PAN cards mandatory won't stop cash transactions. Some people like me prefer paying in cash even though the money is fully taxed and is white money.

There is a lot of unknown mental satisfaction and happiness when you pay for something in cash. I don't get the same happiness in purchasing something when I pay through cards or internet banking.

Also, when you pay by methods other than cash, the value of money becomes notional.

I have purchased a car carrying a bag full of cash only difference from the article is that I wear trendy clothes.
No one can stop you using cash for payment. The government as well as all businesses now insist that you provide your PAN number for any cash transaction greater than Rs 50000. Pretty soon, it will be for transactions smaller than that too. It will not harass you, who are transacting on clean income. But I want to see what happens to that sleazy politician/middle man who has unaccounted money to dispose of.

I know of a case where in a clean businessman running a cash business was unable to purchase a 3 crore property because no builder would accept 3 large bags of cash. He then had to go to a local bank, deposit that cash, take a loan for 3 crores and purchase the property.

Coming back to the topic in question, a DD is a valid instrument of purchase, the problem in this case is the fake DD that that man is using. It is equivalent of dealing with fake currency notes, unfortunately the police seem oblivious to what is a serious fraud.

Last edited by apachelongbow : 26th December 2015 at 17:56.
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Old 26th December 2015, 18:01   #60
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Default Re: Picture of thief buying a car on fake demand draft (Rajasthan) - Please help locate / identify h

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provide your PAN number ... I want to see what happens to that sleazy politician/middle man who has unaccounted money to dispose of.
Easy thing will be for them to get hold of the PAN card of some benami person and do the transaction in his name.

I remember when cricketer Azharuddin's son was killed speeding on a superbike, the vehicle was found to be registered in the name of some petty shopkeeper / scrap metal dealer etc, a poor person who could hardly afford a tvs 50 moped let alone a superbike.

He had been given a few hundred rupees to be the front for the paperwork to stop the taxman asking questions about the cost price of that bike. Ended up arrested after the accident.

There are all these whatsapp forward warnings (for once with good advice) that tell you not to use your PAN card as an identifier for railway ticket bookings as people tend to get hold of lists of name + PAN card and use those to make benami cash purchases of gold, cars etc.
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