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View Poll Results: Whats your pick?
European Cars 211 43.78%
Japanese Cars 219 45.44%
Others (Indian, Korean, American etc.) 22 4.56%
Prefer both equally 30 6.22%
Voters: 482. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 6th May 2014, 00:49   #166
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Default Re: Which Diesel car for ~10 Lakh? Vento vs Verna vs Rapid vs Fiesta vs Linea vs Othe

Quote:
Originally Posted by joybhowmik View Post
Yes. Japanese do recall. they are honest about it. Many others are not so honest IMHO, and prefer to pass off manufacturing defects as usage related. Standing in front of a multi-billion dollar organization, there's often nothing the consumer can do about it but just grin and bear it.

Also, who said that Japanese do not value human safety? Do you have any evidence?
They do recall = they have faults, they have faults = they are not so reliable as people generalise them.
Remember Innovas running in india since 2005 are with defect that may cause airbag malfunction? Thank god that the fault is atleast detected atleast in 2014.

For evidences you can visit accidents in india thread on our forum itself. You will soon realise who scores good in terms of accidents in real practical world which is different than test lab world where cars are accident tested only at 50/60 kmph on hypothetical objects.
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Old 6th May 2014, 00:54   #167
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Default Re: Which Diesel car for ~10 Lakh? Vento vs Verna vs Rapid vs Fiesta vs Linea vs Othe

Quote:
Originally Posted by amit_mechengg View Post
They do recall = they have faults, they have faults = they are not so reliable as people generalise them.
Remember Innovas running in india since 2005 are with defect that may cause airbag malfunction? Thank god that the fault is atleast detected atleast in 2014.

For evidences you can visit accidents in india thread on our forum itself. You will soon realise who scores good in terms of accidents in real practical world which is different than test lab world where cars are accident tested only at 50/60 kmph on hypothetical objects.
amit,... I own an innova now and have for the last 5 years. I own a santro for the last 11 years. I owned a palio for 5 years before the innova.
I have had accidents happen in all three cars. All of them performed well in respective incidents.
In addition, the Innova and the Santro also gave the benefit of least running and repair costs. IIRC, I had to spend 7 lakhs on the palio (not counting accidental repair) , after buying it for 5.5 lakhs. Not so with either the Innova or Santro - they have been very frugal.

I rest my case , based on my own experience.
I am sure , there are enough horror stories of A.S.S. compounding ownership experiences of Skodas, VWs and Fiats. I don't wish to add to them. Just search the forum.
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Old 6th May 2014, 08:57   #168
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Default Moving off-topic posts on Japanese vs German

Amit, it is interesting to see you question the reliability of Japanese cars, however I see no real evidence to your claim. Even consumer surveys indicate the Japanese to be the most satisfactory. Every manufacturer has issued recalls; VW for their atrociously unreliable DSG which they had sold in the market like a product that wasn't even tested, GM's recent ignition recall which had caused a couple of deaths too if I remember correctly (US senate requested an explanation as to why they had sat on the issue for over 5 years), Toyota for airbags that might not work properly (no recorded deaths though) what I also liked was that Toyota recalled cars dating back to decade and were being honest as they wanted to rectify the issue soon.

As for safety, I don't own many cars but if you look at today's Insurance Institute of Highway safety ratings for their most esteemed top safety pick + award, the names in the D2/entry-level luxury segment are: Honda Accord, Suzuki Kizashi, Ford Fusion and Volvo S60. No krauts in the list mate what's even more interesting to note is that in their next best award (kinda like 2nd place let's say), there are tons of cars; american, japanese and even one korean (Kia) BUT only 1 german, the Volkswagen Passat.

Here I shall list in detail, measurements taken in the crash tests of the Suzuki Kizashi and the Mercedes C-Class (which scored the highest amongst the German trio)
Mercedes C-Class- Driver's space seriously compromised, footwell intrusion measuring in at 50 cm and upper interior intrusion measuring in at 10-11cm at the door hinge pillar and instrument panel, dummy's foot was trapped by the brake pedal and the pedal had to be cut off to free the dummy.
Suzuki Kizashi- The driver space was maintained well, with maximum intrusion of the lower interior below 15 cm and maximum intrusion of the upper interior, under 6 cm. There was low risk of any significant injuries.

http://www.motortrend.com/extra/1012..._the_hard_way/ there's another testament to the tough and reliable nature of Japanese cars, some of the parts especially the one in unpaved Russian roads and tiny rivers, will have you amazed. Meanwhile read bhian drmohitg's report on his BMW 3-Series where going over the shoulder of the road, had caused a roadtrip to come to its end: http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/test-d...ml#post3427047 (BMW 320d: Joy comes home, My ultimate 3)

I am not offending other makes here. Cars from across the globe all have their own advantages, however let's not turn a blind eye to them even, nevermind actually go out and claim them to be inexistent

Cheers!

Last edited by IshaanIan : 6th May 2014 at 09:24.
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Old 6th May 2014, 13:10   #169
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Default Re: Which Diesel car for ~10 Lakh? Vento vs Verna vs Rapid vs Fiesta vs Linea vs Othe

Dear Amit: To Add.
Please see the opening post from GTO : http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...rman-cars.html (PICS : How flatbed tow trucks would run out of business without German cars!)

This is regarding the fabled german cars...

And please also see the honesty angle of Japanese manufacturers w.r.t. their recalls...
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...-new-post.html

Having second thoughts yet?

Last edited by joybhowmik : 6th May 2014 at 13:28.
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Old 6th May 2014, 15:31   #170
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Default Re: Which Diesel car for ~10 Lakh? Vento vs Verna vs Rapid vs Fiesta vs Linea vs Othe

Joy has shared may be a decade back experience (Joy, correct me if I am wrong) with Fiat. Thought it will be interesting to share a more recent experience with same manufacturer and with a more recent model.

I continue to be a proud owner of Fiat Linea Diesel for last 4+ years, am not FIAT enthusiast per sey and suggest not to interpret this as a FIAT defense by any means but a pure experience and perspective.

I decided to buy Fiat Linea in 2010 going by the solid build, beautiful looks, best in class features on offer (back then) and best in class waranty (24 month manufactur + 26 month extended warranty). The money I spent buying Fiat Linea Diesel Top End (with all top notch features), for the same money I would have got a Honda City Petrol. Considering price/features differential between the two, Linea was a no brainer. The purchase was from a long-term ownership perspective, weightage on resale value was very low.
- luckily for me there have been very few niggles/issues that came up and Fiat honored almost all under warranty
- based on the experience and reading various Linea threads, Fiat appears to have been quite liberal/honest with respect to warranty claims
- 15K service intervals meant fewer visits to workshop for service
- linea has given best FE of about 24~ KMPL few times with sedate highway driving and everytime I hit highway it gives FE of 20+
- steering feel/feedback, ride quality and handling has been best in class and continue make the ownership experience sheer pleasure

The looks/features in Linea Facelift are even better (Cruise Control, Middle/Top variant with alloys, Auto Headlamps etc), I understand the warranty being offered is best in class (3 yrs / 1,00,000 Kms manufacturer warranty + 2 Yrs / 1,50,000 Kms extended warranty = whopping 5 yrs / 1,50,000 KMs overall warranty period).

Honda on other hands is offering (2 yrs / 40,000 manufacturer + 2 yrs / 40,000 extended warranty).

The warranty period and distance comparison (between Honda vs Fiat) need not be read as a measure for degree of reliability one manufacturer has over it's product vs the other, but with upper hand there FIAT does make a statement about reliability which can't be ignored. Where due the added value Fiat is offering and extra efforts taken deserve appreciation.

Due to the perception built in the market (Japanese/Koreans vs Europeans), who wins on resale value point is no brainer, having said that, apart from the brand name "how well maintained the car has been" has to be an equal contributing factor.

Rather than dismissing set of manufacturers based on legacy, it's important t-bhp users appreciate/understand/consider ground reality (based on recent experience), which eventually helps them make an informed decision/judgement based on their requirements, and, not purely based on perceptions (may be invalid now?) built over a period of time.
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Old 12th May 2014, 20:09   #171
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Default Re: Which Diesel car for ~10 Lakh? Vento vs Verna vs Rapid vs Fiesta vs Linea vs Othe

If I may be allowed a joke or two at the reliability and ASS obsessed indian car buyer! No great offence meant!:-)

Methinks all such buyers should stick to public transport, it is at least in Mumbai the most reliable and safest mode of travel. No ASS headaches either. Ditto with the Delhi metro and delhi's improved bus services! Try it! You'll be delighted at the reliability, regularity, predictabilty, inexpensiveness and other such obsessive-compulsions.

Also: always adhere strictly to stereotypes (skodas are painful to own, the Japanese are honest and they care...) and NEVER fail to keep repeating them to others and especially to oneself. After all, who wants to take any sort of chance?!

And ah, the comforts of belonging to majority opinion, talking repetitiously to itself! Such as: the new honda city is so worth 10+lakhs, the tyres maybe puny, the build tinny, the ride choppy, the nvh terrible but...what reliability! Or: I am willing to pay a premium of 5 lakhs for an ancient innova, just for the-- not quality, not refinement--god of ...Reliability, amen! Who cares about expensive parts, lousy warranties, short service intervals....here take my extra lakhs for Reliability, Om shanti shanti!
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Old 12th May 2014, 21:07   #172
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Default Re: Which Diesel car for ~10 Lakh? Vento vs Verna vs Rapid vs Fiesta vs Linea vs Othe

Quote:
Originally Posted by joybhowmik View Post
Dear Amit: To Add.
Please see the opening post from GTO : http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...rman-cars.html (PICS : How flatbed tow trucks would run out of business without German cars!)

This is regarding the fabled german cars...

And please also see the honesty angle of Japanese manufacturers w.r.t. their recalls...
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...-new-post.html

Having second thoughts yet?
Yes Sir, glad to see the RSA working efficiently to pick up the European cars, atleast they dont have to push the cars to the service station, just kidding

So if Japanese recalls - they are honest - so they are reliable even if they run around with faults - wow what an irony.


Quote:
Amit, it is interesting to see you question the reliability of Japanese cars, however I see no real evidence to your claim.
Oops i thought you read what i posted. I already said you can look back into the accidents in india thread on our own forum. Anyways i will make your search easy.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/street...pics-1026.html

Do scroll through pages. These are not lab results like you find out on google. These are real practical outcomes in India on Indian roads, from indians.
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Old 12th May 2014, 21:56   #173
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Default Re: Which Diesel car for ~10 Lakh? Vento vs Verna vs Rapid vs Fiesta vs Linea vs Othe

Quote:
Originally Posted by amit_mechengg View Post
Oops i thought you read what i posted. I already said you can look back into the accidents in india thread on our own forum. Anyways i will make your search easy.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/street...pics-1026.html

Do scroll through pages. These are not lab results like you find out on google. These are real practical outcomes in India on Indian roads, from indians.
Lol you just pointed me to some old M800 as a representative of Today's Jap safety. The cars that you probably refer to in the thread are really old. Or are cheap. Also, since no two accidents are the same, you can never really use the thread to compare two cars like you seem to be so comfortable doing. End of the day, if you are telling me that the real world results are exactly the opposite of crash tests, then you've got an opinion. Can't expect others to respect that but hey! You've found yourself an opinion

As a member of a prestigious automotive forum such as this, I just thought it was wrong for you to make the accusations you did without any proof. So I tried giving you well structured argument with proof to back my claims up, BUT if you can so easily wave it off, I suppose it is all just down to pixie dust isn't it

Cheers!

Last edited by IshaanIan : 12th May 2014 at 22:04.
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Old 12th May 2014, 22:39   #174
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Default Re: Which Diesel car for ~10 Lakh? Vento vs Verna vs Rapid vs Fiesta vs Linea vs Othe

Quote:
Originally Posted by IshaanIan View Post
End of the day, if you are telling me that the real world results are exactly the opposite of crash tests, then you've got an opinion. Can't expect others to respect that but hey! You've found yourself an opinion

As a member of a prestigious automotive forum such as this, I just thought it was wrong for you to make the accusations you did without any proof. So I tried giving you well structured argument with proof to back my claims up, BUT if you can so easily wave it off, I suppose it is all just down to pixie dust isn't it

Cheers!
Hi. Your Kizashi is not representative of the automotive tripe (exagerration for rhetorical purposes!) being offered here in India by the 'East Asian' gang of three that has a stranglehold on almost all the segments of the mass market.

Man, a base Honda City or Verna will flunk the safety test of India's brutal roads every time! The Asean tests on which the City got a mere four stars (the Linea and Punto get 5 stars on the far tougher Euro Ncaap) had a city with six airbags! You cannot buy that sort of safety on an Indian Honda City for any amount of fear, love or money! Hell, with tyres as reedy and lousy as the ones the Indian Honda City.... but right!
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Old 12th May 2014, 23:03   #175
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Default Re: Which Diesel car for ~10 Lakh? Vento vs Verna vs Rapid vs Fiesta vs Linea vs Othe

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Originally Posted by desdemona View Post
Hi. Your Kizashi is not representative of the automotive tripe (exagerration for rhetorical purposes!) being offered here in India by the 'East Asian' gang of three that has a stranglehold on almost all the segments of the mass market.

Man, a base Honda City or Verna will flunk the safety test of India's brutal roads every time! The Asean tests on which the City got a mere four stars (the Linea and Punto get 5 stars on the far tougher Euro Ncaap) had a city with six airbags! You cannot buy that sort of safety on an Indian Honda City for any amount of fear, love or money! Hell, with tyres as reedy and lousy as the ones the Indian Honda City.... but right!
I'm sure the Punto and Linea sold here also have a few differences structurally compared to their european counterparts. Infact I even saw the difference in the front impact beam of a base active variant Punto and the Emotion. Speaking of 4 stars, which btw is quite respectable as it still means that cabin structure is maintained well, you know who else got 4 stars? The Volkswagen Vento. Ford's Fiesta scored well but then lost out in terms of child occupant safety compared to the City.

I agree, it was foolish of me to compare D2/entry-level luxury sedans here, since being direct imports or atleast locally assembled ones, they are identical to what the rest of the world gets except in terms of a few features here and there. Let's stick to the C2 segment then. Since I am positive that most cars under 15 lakhs offer less in terms of structural safety, compared to their first world counter-parts, I guess we ought to simply wait till the global ncap crash tests a few more cars. I am sure nearly everything including the Verna, City and Vento will score 4 stars. Exception being the new Fiesta and perhaps maybe the Linea. Even if we move away from the details, is a 4 star crash rated car that bad? Amit seemed to suggest even more horrific differences in his posts.

Disclaimer: I am not biased here, infact given the money and choice of a car in that segment, I would book the Linea T-Jet straightaway. All I am saying is that I would buy it for the turbocharged madness, the dynamics and the looks and not because I thought it was safer than everything else, and more reliable than everything else, and made absolute sense in every aspect, and that people with different priorities, who were buying Honda Citys, were idiots. Hope we're on the same page here.

Last edited by IshaanIan : 12th May 2014 at 23:25.
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Old 13th May 2014, 01:27   #176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joybhowmik View Post
Also, who said that Japanese do not value human safety? Do you have any evidence?
I am into motor insurance for the past 8 years now. Have gone through more than 30k insurance claims out of which larger numbers count for the Japanese cars which India loves, just for the fact that it runs a couple of more kilometers to the litre and gives me half the money I spent buying it when I sell it after 3-4 years. If you give a damn to your family's and your own safety, go get a Japanese car blindly.

As far as evidences are concerned, this won't be the proper thread to post horrific images(which I have in abundance) of mangled remains of these Japanese beauties. I won't refrain mentioning brand names as I really want people to know what they get out of a wrongly praised product. Maruti Suzuki makes the most unsafe cars. For instance, go check any Maruti Wagon R at a ASS which has met with a frontal impact on any of the side, you will see that both the chassis long members (known as aprons) get badly impacted even if the impact is on the other side. Is this a new technology of providing crumple zones in the chassis?
Alto 800: No ASS will ever agree on repairs to any of the body panel saying "The sheet metal tears off if we try tinkering it" That's quality and safety!

Honda: It's no different than the one I mentioned above. In cases of major impact a Indian Honda city crumples as if it's a tin can. Someone earlier said about cabin being intact, in a Honda city even the cabin floor creases as if it's a paper!

The ideology here is, he's got a Honda and my boss has got a Honda so Honda is the best! Please take some time and do visit the accidents thread as amit mechengg suggested for a refresher on what's safety. I have owned marutis in the past and i was fine with it until I bought the Fiat Linea MJD and understood real meaning of the terms: Ride & Handling, Safety, built quality and to everyone's surprise ASS.

FIAT ASS has drastically improved and service and spares costs are really low as of now. As far as resale is concerned each one has his own priority: get 50k more at the end of 3 years or lose that 50k for peace of mind and sheer quality.

Disclaimer: These are purely my personal opinions with least intentions of hurting anyone's sentiments.

Regards,
Mahesh
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Old 13th May 2014, 07:40   #177
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Default Re: Which Diesel car for ~10 Lakh? Vento vs Verna vs Rapid vs Fiesta vs Linea vs Othe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oranger View Post
As far as evidences are concerned, this won't be the proper thread to post horrific images(which I have in abundance) of mangled remains of these Japanese beauties. I won't refrain mentioning brand names as I really want people to know what they get out of a wrongly praised product. Maruti Suzuki makes the most unsafe cars. For instance, go check any Maruti Wagon R at a ASS which has met with a frontal impact on any of the side, you will see that both the chassis long members (known as aprons) get badly impacted even if the impact is on the other side. Is this a new technology of providing crumple zones in the chassis?
Alto 800: No ASS will ever agree on repairs to any of the body panel saying "The sheet metal tears off if we try tinkering it" That's quality and safety!

Honda: It's no different than the one I mentioned above. In cases of major impact a Indian Honda city crumples as if it's a tin can. Someone earlier said about cabin being intact, in a Honda city even the cabin floor creases as if it's a paper!

The ideology here is, he's got a Honda and my boss has got a Honda so Honda is the best! Please take some time and do visit the accidents thread as amit mechengg suggested for a refresher on what's safety. I have owned marutis in the past and i was fine with it until I bought the Fiat Linea MJD and understood real meaning of the terms: Ride & Handling, Safety, built quality and to everyone's surprise ASS.

FIAT ASS has drastically improved and service and spares costs are really low as of now. As far as resale is concerned each one has his own priority: get 50k more at the end of 3 years or lose that 50k for peace of mind and sheer quality.

Disclaimer: These are purely my personal opinions with least intentions of hurting anyone's sentiments.

Regards,
Mahesh

You claim that most of the insurance claims you went through are from Jap cars. Ever occur to you that Japanese, Korean and Domestic cars make for 89% of cars on the road? And perhaps that also has something to do with your reportedly high numbers too? Apart from the fact that most of the cars you see are cheap hatchbacks; like the wagon r, alto 800, eon, i10, spark etc for which one doesn't expect much in terms of crash safety and there aren't really any other offerings.

As for the single claim on the Honda City you made, have you got more details on the accident itself? Dont tell me the car crumpled in an accident where nothing else would have crumpled was it old or new? I have personally witnessed the crash safety of a 3rd gen Honda City and while the crush zones did get crumpled, cabin intrusion was minimal and occupants got out with not a scratch. There are also several crashes on the forum of SX4 sedans where the body absorbs the impact quite admirably and cabin space in untouched.

Every accident is different from the other, on top of which nearly nearly 90% of the cars you see are east asian and majority of that percentage is also comprised of cheap hatchbacks. To then make general assessments based on the overall numbers, like you have, is quite immature.

Last edited by IshaanIan : 13th May 2014 at 08:08.
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Old 13th May 2014, 16:08   #178
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Default Re: Which Diesel car for ~10 Lakh? Vento vs Verna vs Rapid vs Fiesta vs Linea vs Othe

Quote:
Originally Posted by IshaanIan View Post
I'm sure the Punto and Linea sold here also have a few differences structurally compared to their european counterparts. Infact I even saw the difference in the front impact beam of a base active variant Punto and the Emotion. Speaking of 4 stars, which btw is quite respectable as it still means that cabin structure is maintained well, you know who else got 4 stars? The Volkswagen Vento. Ford's Fiesta scored well but then lost out in terms of child occupant safety compared to the City.
I've been coming across this point for quite a while now - cars sold in India being structurally different (watered down?) compared to the same model in say Europe. Why is this so - is it to save metal and money, or is it to make the vehicle lighter for fuel efficiency or is it because of the other changes (like increased GC) that are done for our road conditions?
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Old 13th May 2014, 16:31   #179
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Default Re: Japanese or European cars? Whats your pick in India?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oranger
I am into motor insurance for the past 8 years now. Have gone through more than 30k insurance claims out of which larger numbers count for the Japanese cars which India loves,
This should be a no-brainer given that the Japs not only sell more cars than the EU competition, but outsell them by such a HUGE margin that there is no competition at all. So no wonder claims are more given the humongous number of cars on the road. Nothing to do with their build/safety etc.

To put things in perspective, the Japs sold 1lakh+ cars last month. Compared to a measly 828 Fiats in total sold across all models/variants. How many of the 828 sold across India do you expect would come to you for a claim?
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Old 13th May 2014, 16:44   #180
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Default Re: Japanese or European cars? Whats your pick in India?

I have been watching this thread for a long time but refrained from posting, but I think I can post now as I have driven a European car(Opel Astra) for the 8 years and for the last 2 odd years I have been driving a Japanese car(Mitsubishi Lancer).

From my experience both cars are good and each has its pros and cons. I can give a small view on my experience while living with these two cars.

European Car: Opel Astra 1.6(Base Variant) Petrol 16 NZR Engine 1997 Model:

Pros:
Driving comfort/pleasure
Plush ride
Torquey yet underpowered engine
Teutonic(Tank Like) build
Heavy car felt safe

Cons:
Fuel guzzler
Expensive spares
Constant electrical and electronic niggles
Braking not upto the mark
Poor After Sales Service

Japanese Car: Mitsubishi Lancer 1.5 Petrol(top end LEi variant) 4G15 Engine 2004 Model:

Pros:
A very involving fun to drive car
Rev happy fuel efficient motor
More interior space compared to Opel Astra
Rally bred handling
Confidence inspiring braking
Perfectly working electricals/electronics (except weak power windows)

Cons:
Easy to fix electricals/electronics although a bit costly as compared to other Japanese cars
Harsh ride
Light body although not tinny but metal gauge not as heavy as Opel Astra
Gets easily dented on minor impact

These are some of the points I could gather there are many more that are already listed in this thread and elsewhere on the forum.

To each his own but for me it is a real tie between a Japanese and a European car. I would like to own both as they give me the best of both the worlds.

Last edited by navin_v8 : 13th May 2014 at 16:45. Reason: grammatical edits
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